Upgraded Character Generator, Updated Generator Based on work from Autarkis and Blakkie Options

[Draco18s]

I just downloaded the latest version in Excel 2007, and noticed that some of the pages I can't see anything , or most of the page. Its all whited out (No Colors, no information as to what the drop downs are for, what area etc). Pages I noticed were Cyberpart, Ally Spirit and Magic. Do these become visible when you choose certain things in your build or are they just somewhat broken?

Ally Spirit only shows up if you get one (on the Magic page?), and the Magic page shows up (in pieces) depending on what kind of magic user you are.

[DamienKnight]

Either way you look like a Mo-Fu-ing tank, only in the cheaper scenario you can take it off and leave it at home, if you need to.
It also doesn't matter what the former's physical track's length is (+2 boxes per cyberlimb) because he's only going to be taking stun damage anyway.

Now. If you really wanted to use all your restricted gear options on armor, you could boost it by another 4 (!!!) armor, 1200 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and 10 BP.

This at least will only happen at CharGen, if the Character pays ¥38,500 per leg and Restricted Gear twice as well.

So a starting character could not have maxed armor. 22 armor under your skin should not be possible for anyone.

Let me address that. One-handed firearms may be the exception, but everything else probably cannot be reduced to only one limb being involved. And still using the second hand to steady your pistol arguably is a good thing. The other thing is what does it matter if your arm is completely still when the legs or torso start to bob?

Melee combat most definitely involves all limbs (even head and torso). In the rules it is described as a series of feints, parries and attacks. Telling us to use the strength of a single limb for damage resolution is contrary to the rule and the section of cyberlimbs only mentions STR for damage not AGI, so to see if the "powerfist" actually hits, you would need the average of all limbs. Effectively punching someone involves the torso and legs nearly as much as the arm. Physical Skills tied to Physical Attributes would also use the average. That also includes Diving and Parachuting, even though they are less commonly used than the Athletics and Stealth Group.

Please read SR4a p. 343 before making any more replies.

Melee uses whatever limb you are leading with.

Athletics and stealth use the WEAKEST limbs attribute, not the average.

The average is only used when a Task does not require careful coordination of limbs, such as in resisting damage.

[Dakka Dakka]

Melee uses whatever limb you are leading with.

You are right that the book says that. This example however contradicts the actual rules:

When a particular limb is used for a test (such as leading an attack with your cyberarm), use the attribute for that limb (natural or cyber); in any other case, take the average value of all limbs involved in the task (round down). If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb.

How only one limb can be involved in melee, when melee combat is described as follows, is beyond me.

Rather than a single blow, each attack is a series of moves and counter-moves executed by those involved. Melee combat is not “I punch you and then I wait for your turn to punch me;” rather, it represents several seconds of feints, jabs, punches, counters, attacks, defends, kicks, and bites by both combatants at the same time.

So it should either be a coordinated effort of several limbs, resulting in an average or even require "careful coordination" which would mean the minimum must be used.
I'd rather go with the rule being right and the example being wrong than the other way around.

Athletics and stealth use the WEAKEST limbs attribute, not the average.

Then I was being generous there.

The average is only used when a Task does not require careful coordination of limbs, such as in resisting damage.

I do ask though when is "careful coordination" needed instead of only coordination. Unless only one limb is involved, limbs always need to be coordinated. Are you saying coordination equals careful coordination? Then the whole average thing does not exist except for damage resistance. I would not call resisting damage a task. So there should be others. If you say anything resembling physical activity (i.e. coordinated movement of several limbs) requires careful coordination, melee combat should be included. Applying the rules in that manner makes cyberlimbs even worse than I thought.

[Mäx]

So a starting character could not have maxed armor. 22 armor under your skin should not be possible for anyone.

It's not possible for any player character, atleast not one that's not totally useless other then not taking physical damage from most attacks, witch isn't even that useful, considering that stun damage takes you out of a fight just as easily(actually easier most of the time, as the stun damage track is shorter).

[DamienKnight]

You are right that the book says that. This example however contradicts the actual rules:
How only one limb can be involved in melee, when melee combat is described as follows, is beyond me.
So it should either be a coordinated effort of several limbs, resulting in an average or even require "careful coordination" which would mean the minimum must be used.
I'd rather go with the rule being right and the example being wrong than the other way around.


Then I was being generous there.
I do ask though when is "careful coordination" needed instead of only coordination. Unless only one limb is involved, limbs always need to be coordinated. Are you saying coordination equals careful coordination? Then the whole average thing does not exist except for damage resistance. I would not call resisting damage a task. So there should be others. If you say anything resembling physical activity (i.e. coordinated movement of several limbs) requires careful coordination, melee combat should be included. Applying the rules in that manner makes cyberlimbs even worse than I thought.

If you would like to discuss some special house rules about cyberlimbs that contradict raw, please post it in the general forum. I am not interested.

It's not possible for any player character, atleast not one that's not totally useless other then not taking physical damage from most attacks, witch isn't even that useful, considering that stun damage takes you out of a fight just as easily(actually easier most of the time, as the stun damage track is shorter).

With Biocompatibility Cyberware, they could have a human with all userd-alpha cyberlimbs, trauma dampener, platelete factories, smartlink and ultrasound. Thats 12 armor from cyberlimbs, plus more than 12 from worn armor, we are looking at 26+ ballistic armor.

Add a dose of Cram and a dose of Jazz and you have someone with 8 body, 9 str, 9 agility and 3 passes. That sounds like a completely combat inneffective character, indeed!

But that is not even the character I have a problem with. Its later when he can afford to have more armor added to his wares, so now he has 22 armor from his limbs, plus 15 worn armor, for a total of 37 armor, and he doesnt even need to wear milspec. Thats twice the armor of a tank (granted its not Hardened, but with that many dice, does it matter?).

With a body of 8 and 37 ballistic armor, you have 45 dice for resisting bullets. You may not have hardened armor, but you can buy a total of 11 successes... so nothing short of a sniper rifle (or a very skilled shooter) is going even cause you to have to roll.

That is out of hand. That is crazy. 45 dice for ballistic tests... comon people! I dont know how no one else is seeing how RIDICULOUS this is!

Oh, and with the trauma dampener, he would ignore 1 box of stun damage (and everything is stun when you have 37 ballistic armor) so actually, it would have to be doing 12 damage in order to cause you to have to roll.


Seriously though, if no one wants to play a cyberTANK, as you say Max, then no one will mind if I cap the armor at 2 per limb (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

With a body of 8 and 37 ballistic armor, you have 45 dice for resisting bullets. You may not have hardened armor, but you can buy a total of 11 successes... so nothing short of a sniper rifle (or a very skilled shooter) is going even cause you to have to roll.

Simple AR loaded with EX-EX fired in full auto does a minimum of 17S damage, someone needs on avarage 53(because it has AP -2) dice to resist that, doing the same using S&S does 16S and halves your Impact armor, meaning youd need about 70 dice to start if you want to fully resist that one.
Even a simple machine pistol with Ex-EX on full auto does a minimum of 15S damage.
And thats with-out going to the myriad of options that don't care about your armor at all.

By the way, why does your example mention used-alpha, those cost exactly the same amount of essence as standard grade ware does?

[naga-nuyen]

that is the only thing that gets me about the Generator. I have to go back and redo the math on the Cyber and bio ware. I had a PC i loved and took him on multiple missions, then found out that if you do the math how the designers explained in posts and in the RC sent in German all my used ware provided in the specs gave a benefit were it should not have, and the Alpha plus bio compatibility adds less benefit.

IE: used alpha WR1 1.6 were it should be 2 (1.2 for used - .2 for alpha)*2
alpha WR1 plus Bio compatibility= 1.44 in the generator were it should be 1.4 (.2 +.1)*2

But i will say this....it is a minor thing. I love the generator and am very thankful for it. And i figure you used the math of 2*1.2*.2 for used ware and 2*.2*.1 for normal ware. Which is your call for creating and working on the piece so damn hard.

[DamienKnight]

Simple AR loaded with EX-EX fired in full auto does a minimum of 17S damage, someone needs on avarage 53(because it has AP -2) dice to resist that, doing the same using S&S does 16S and halves your Impact armor, meaning youd need about 70 dice to start if you want to fully resist that one.
Even a simple machine pistol with Ex-EX on full auto does a minimum of 15S damage.
And thats with-out going to the myriad of options that don't care about your armor at all.

By the way, why does your example mention used-alpha, those cost exactly the same amount of essence as standard grade ware does?

1 * .8 * 1.2 = .96


A full auto assault rifle should be deadly to any character if they take a narrow burst. with 47 dice its 1 use of edge and they take 0 damage. Its a serious problem. We arent even accounting for the troll version.

The point is, massive amounts of armor under your skin is unreasonable. Wearing the heaviest milspec armor is maybe 18 armor. You can exceed that, all with synthetic limbs... looking like a completely normal person. It just isnt right.

I am done hearing weak arguments about cyberlimb armor. If you have any bugs/suggestions for the sheet, please post them. Otherwise take it to a thread in the main forum. I think its been beaten to death here, and dozens of places elsewhere.

[Mäx]

1 * .8 * 1.2 = .96

Doesn't work like that.
1+0,2-0,2=1 is how the essence reductions are calculated.

that is the only thing that gets me about the Generator. I have to go back and redo the math on the Cyber and bio ware.

If you know even a little bit about using excel, this is easy to fix by yourself.
Just unhide the Misc_Data tab, the ware cost modifiers are in tabs U-Y.
Just change used alpha essence to 1 and used alpha adapsin to 0,9.
Then just hide the tab again and save the sheet, if your afraid of messing somethink up use a different save name, but this should be straight forward enough.

Also damien, i can't even belive your comparing wearing a heavy millspec armor, to changing your whole body into a high strength armored material.
But your right i couldn't really care less about how you cap cyber limb armor in your games, as the limit on the sheet is simple enough to change, but could you please just exempt the armor from averaging, as the invidual limb line showing 6 points of armor for every one point you take just looks mighty weird (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[cndblank]

First great project.

Quick question.

Under spells for a mage, if you use the bottom third to add a spell, the spells do not add to the spell count under Spells known.
Is that a bug or a feature.

Also if I try to save the character sheet as Excel 2003 (.xls), I get a Significant loss of Functionality at Technomancer and 65536 rows message.

I then save it as a xlsm.

Can I ignore that warning message?

[Mäx]

Under spells for a mage, if you use the bottom third to add a spell, the spells do not add to the spell count under Spells known.
Is that a bug or a feature.

Seems to be a bug, the spells know only counts the range B4-B23, this one is also easy to fix yourself while waiting for a update, just unprotect the magic tap and change the B4:B23 in the spells known formula to B4:B31.

There's also a bug in the weapons tap, adding a mod to the second slot on a custom ranged weapon creates a circular reference.

[DamienKnight]

Under spells for a mage, if you use the bottom third to add a spell, the spells do not add to the spell count under Spells known.
Is that a bug or a feature.

Also if I try to save the character sheet as Excel 2003 (.xls), I get a Significant loss of Functionality at Technomancer and 65536 rows message.

I then save it as a xlsm.

Can I ignore that warning message?

I will fix that in the next version. When I added more slots for spells I broke a number of things...

The sheet is developed in excel 2003, so it canot exceed 65536 rows, so the message is just a default message from your excel version.

What kind of loss of Functionality on the Technomancer page are you experiencing?

[cndblank]

Thanks for the answers.

Never played a Technomancer so I don't know.
I just wanted to confirm that other than a Technomancer should be fine using Excel 2003 format.

I will fix that in the next version. When I added more slots for spells I broke a number of things...

The sheet is developed in excel 2003, so it canot exceed 65536 rows, so the message is just a default message from your excel version.

What kind of loss of Functionality on the Technomancer page are you experiencing?

[janusfenix]

Can someone explain to me how the Reputation score in this character sheet relates to Street Cred/Notoriety/Public Awareness, and whether any of those three things are directly tracked in this character sheet?
Thanks,
JF

[DamienKnight]

Can someone explain to me how the Reputation score in this character sheet relates to Street Cred/Notoriety/Public Awareness, and whether any of those three things are directly tracked in this character sheet?
Thanks,
JF

See the tab titled 'Karma_log' to track reputation and noteriety.

[DamienKnight]

Version s is now available.

http://www.filedropper.com/sr4cgdk1s_1

Includes
- Added Weapons, Bioware, Biodrones, Drones and some vehicles from WAR!
- Fixed spell selection bottom slots not adding to spells selected count
- Fixed Programming suites not showing up on Charsheet
- Fixed circular reference in custom weapon mods

I Know its not been long since the last version, but I was anxious to get some fixes and new weapons out there. Dont forget, the last version added all guns from Gun Heaven.

[janusfenix]

See the tab titled 'Karma_log' to track reputation and noteriety.

Ah, thanks! The book I have (SR4A) (p. 265) breaks out "Reputation" into Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness, so I was confused seeing Reputation and Notoriety next to eachother, but not the others.

A few more questions, then:
Is there any way to get the Reputation (or Street Cred) that is calculated based on total earned Karma / 10, or should I just factor that in manually as I go?
Is Public Awareness displayed anywhere (being (Street Cred + Notoriety) / 3)?
Notoriety doesn't seem to be modified by Positive/Negative Qualities, should I just factor this in myself as a Karma Log entry before my first game?


Thanks for making such a handy tool, and sorry if I'm annoying with newbie questions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by janusfenix: Jun 29 2011, 06:23 PM

[DamienKnight]

Ah, thanks! The book I have (SR4A) (p. 265) breaks out "Reputation" into Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness, so I was confused seeing Reputation and Notoriety next to eachother, but not the others.

A few more questions, then:
Is there any way to get the Reputation (or Street Cred) that is calculated based on total earned Karma / 10, or should I just factor that in manually as I go?
Is Public Awareness displayed anywhere (being (Street Cred + Notoriety) / 3)?
Notoriety doesn't seem to be modified by Positive/Negative Qualities, should I just factor this in myself as a Karma Log entry before my first game?


Thanks for making such a handy tool, and sorry if I'm annoying with newbie questions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You will have to add reputation/noteriety after each run. Usually I make one entry after each run which adds karma/nuyen/rep/noteriety all in one entry.

I had a column for tracking how much karma was applied towards reputation, but it became too confusing to use. Karma earned in secret, from special GM awards, etc. does not apply to Reputation, so you will need to track when your reputation increases.

[Mäx]

- Fixed circular reference in custom weapon mods

Thank for the fix(and others + the new stuff too), thats some fast bug fixing, only 6 hours between a report of the bug and a relesead fix (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Sengir]

Doesn't work like that.

It DOES work like that, see Augmentation p.32. And while people like to claim that this was changed in the errata included in the German version, let me assure you it wasn't..

[Mäx]

And while people like to claim that this was changed in the errata included in the German version, let me assure you it wasn't..

I find that hard to belive, when i have seen post(s) listing the new essence costs for the ware suites, calculated in the errata way, from the errated german augmentation.

[Sengir]

I find that hard to belive, when i have seen post(s) listing the new essence costs for the ware suites, calculated in the errata way, from the errated german augmentation.

That's because German Augmentation makes an exception for the Essence modifier for cyber suites, which is now additive. The (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) modifier is multiplicative again, and the example on p.32 uses the same math as in the original version for both Essence and money.

*points to link in sig*

[Mäx]

That's because German Augmentation makes an exception for the Essence modifier for cyber suites, which is now additive. The (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) modifier is multiplicative again, and the example on p.32 uses the same math as in the original version for both Essence and money.

Triple Facepalm.
Awesome partial implementation of errata, lets hope that the english one (if we ever get one) has the full essence cost calculation errata included.

[Aku]

Just getting back into SR and am using this for the chargen, one teeny tiny thing: "noteriety" should be "notoriety"

[Sengir]

Triple Facepalm.
Awesome partial implementation of errata

I wonder if there's a Latin word for "disimprovement", as that would be a far better description of this change...