Upgraded Character Generator, Updated Generator Based on work from Autarkis and Blakkie Options

[DamienKnight]

Version Beta 5c

Features:

- Fixed Karma cost problems
- Fixed Skill Group recommendation sheet
- Fixed various other errors in formulas
- Added Vehicle Mods to Vehicles page
- Hid Form tools, Added Open/Close scripts to show/hide them. Moved booleans to a more visible area, effectively making the sheet easier to use when scripting is disabled.
- Added Immersion and living persona attributes on Technomancer Page
edit
- Fixed knowledge skills/spec cost
- Fixed maximum Magic/Resonance based on Initation/Immersion Grade
- Fixed Essence loss affecting magic, added automatic 1 point essence loss for infected

[Yassum]

What I meant is, in Z12 your formula for the cost of knowledge skills works well in the normal system. But it adds twice the normal cost of those skills if you use the karma system, that's why I added another SI(Karma_Build_System...) in my formula for Z12.

The other error was indeed the misnamed quality.

[DamienKnight]

What I meant is, in Z12 your formula for the cost of knowledge skills works well in the normal system. But it adds twice the normal cost of those skills if you use the karma system, that's why I added another SI(Karma_Build_System...) in my formula for Z12.

The other error was indeed the misnamed quality.

Does the knowledge skill point cost look right to you in version 5?

[Yassum]

Nope, it still doubles the cost of knowledge skills, even in version 5 their cost is on par with those of active skills.
(It works well in the build point system, it's just a bug while using the karma build system)

Also while in karma build system, it seems the specialisation of active skills is free instead of costing 2 karma points.

[Ryu]

Main_Sheet Z6 needs to be =IF(Karma_Build_System; SUM(AO18:AP46); SUM(AM18:AN46;AV18:AV23;AV25:AV30)), then active skill specs are added under the karma system.

The knowledge skill karma costs need to reference your "Complete Karma Table" Column1, not Column2.

[DamienKnight]

Ok, I found the problem. I was thinking knowledge skills were correct because they were correctly displayed in Z7 (using column 2 of the karma table, which is correct, because column 1 is the index column).

The problem was where they were being added to the total, which first adds your free knowledge points (0 in karma system) then multiplies by 2. It now only does that with the BP system, and in the karma system simply adds the number from Z7 to the final cost.

Also, I confirmed that the karma paid specializations of knowledge skills were not being added in. Using a COUNTA function I added these costs in.

Here is a link to version Beta5c, which fixes knowledge skills.

[Bobson]

I think Initiation isn't adjusting the magic rating limit appropriately. I tried to fix, but it threw off the BP costs. :/

I figured out how to fix this.
Main_Sheet, cell P11: =IF(L11="",0,6+AM11+Magic!R34)
Main_Sheet, cell AN11: =IF(M11>0,(M11-1)*10+IF(M11=P11-Magic!R34,15),0)

Probably need to do something similar for Technomancer immersion, but I haven't looked at that.

[DamienKnight]

Sorry Bobson, I did not notice your first post. You are correct, Initate_Grade and Immersion_Grade are not being calculated into the maximum magic attribute.

I labeled your initiate grade (determined on magic page) as Initiate_Grade, and did the same with Immersion_Grade on the Technomancer page. I then updated the formula on Main_Sheet to add in Initiate_Grade if you are a Magic Type character, or add in Immersion grade if you are a technomancer type.

Here is Beta5c

[Bobson]

Sorry Bobson, I did not notice your first post. You are correct, Initate_Grade and Immersion_Grade are not being calculated into the maximum magic attribute.

I labeled your initiate grade (determined on magic page) as Initiate_Grade, and did the same with Immersion_Grade on the Technomancer page. I then updated the formula on Main_Sheet to add in Initiate_Grade if you are a Magic Type character, or add in Immersion grade if you are a technomancer type.

Here is Beta5b

You missed the change to AN11 - without that, once you initiate/immerse you get back the 25BP penalty for maxing a stat at chargen.

Thank you for all the time and effort! It's great to have a charsheet that's improving so quickly.

[DamienKnight]

You missed the change to AN11 - without that, once you initiate/immerse you get back the 25BP penalty for maxing a stat at chargen.

Thank you for all the time and effort! It's great to have a charsheet that's improving so quickly.

Good point Bobson.

Something else I realized while working on this... Essence loss does not effect magic on the sheet, and infected are not suffering from their 1 point of automatic essence loss!

Initiation and Essence loss are now correctly calculated as of 5c, which you can get here.

[Cabral]

Woot. Looks pretty nice.

I've noticed some quick issues, but it might be an OpenOffice issue rather than a spreadsheet problem.

First, switching between BP and Karma the Base column doesn't completely disappear or return.
Second, the way the stats are calculated is a little odd. It's seems to assuming a base of 1, and measures increases from there. It looks fine when you're making a human (Oh, I just put the value I want in there), but when making a metahuman, it gets weird. (For example, Elf Agility yields a 2 with a blank cell, 0, or 1 in the cell. Changing it to 2, bumps it up to 3.) It works, it's just odd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I play with it more when I get the chance.

for the record. I didn't think the behind the scenes function of the sheets needed macros, but I was having a hard time getting into the guts without them. This helps tremendously! I was able to open it up and start making a character right away.

[Bobson]

Second, the way the stats are calculated is a little odd. It's seems to assuming a base of 1, and measures increases from there. It looks fine when you're making a human (Oh, I just put the value I want in there), but when making a metahuman, it gets weird. (For example, Elf Agility yields a 2 with a blank cell, 0, or 1 in the cell. Changing it to 2, bumps it up to 3.) It works, it's just odd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's actually pretty standard chargen/karama-cost rules, just displayed a little unintuitively. It costs the Elf 10 BP to have Agility 3, and it costs a human 10 BP to have Agility 2. It costs them 0 BP to have 2 or 1 respectively. Thus you buy one rank of Agility for 10 BP, and that adds to the elven racial mod (+1) to produce the 2 Agi for the elf. If you put in 2, that means you're buying two ranks, not that you want the stat to be at 2.

[DamienKnight]

switching between BP and Karma the Base column doesn't completely disappear or return.

It looks fine in Excel, but I may be able to figure out what is causing the problem. Could you tell me more specifically which cells are not appearing correctly?

the way the stats are calculated is a little odd. It's seems to assuming a base of 1, and measures increases from there. It looks fine when you're making a human (Oh, I just put the value I want in there), but when making a metahuman, it gets weird. (For example, Elf Agility yields a 2 with a blank cell, 0, or 1 in the cell. Changing it to 2, bumps it up to 3.) It works, it's just odd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am not sure if it was Blakkie or Arturkis who originally implemented the stat raising functionality, but I like the way it works. I thought it was weird at first, but once you get used to it, it totally makes sense.

Here is the reasoning behind it as I see it:
All races have a minimum stat, and they are not all the same. Ie. humans agility minimum is 1, but elves it is 2. You pay nothing for the minimum.

In the original version, if you had 0 in there, then the minimum would be = the minimum -1, but then if you put 1 in there the minimum would be correct. Basically if you didnt put 1 in, you didnt get your free point. I changed it to always give you your free point, even if you neglected to put 1 there.

Now the number you are entering is what you want the base score to be, before adding in racial/infection bonuses. Basically if you want a human to have a 6 str, you put a 6. If you want an elf to have a 6 agility, you need only put 5, because they get +1 from race. Either way, the 6th point is the one that costs 25 bp.

The real benefit of this method is that you dont have to know what modifiers your character has or figure them in at all, you just decide how many building points you want to put into the attribute, and it figures out the rest!

Now for the Karma column, it could make sense to instead list the racially modified stat, since that is what you are paying karma for, but to remain consistent with the BP column, I left it in the same style, where you enter 1 through 6 then it adds the racial modifier before it calculates the karma cost.

Woot. Looks pretty nice.
...
This helps tremendously!

Thanks for the encouragement!

Perhaps in the near future I will get a desktop computer at home and put open office on it, so I can test my sheet in that environment.

[DamienKnight]

That's actually pretty standard chargen/karama-cost rules, just displayed a little unintuitively. It costs the Elf 10 BP to have Agility 3, and it costs a human 10 BP to have Agility 2. It costs them 0 BP to have 2 or 1 respectively. Thus you buy one rank of Agility for 10 BP, and that adds to the elven racial mod (+1) to produce the 2 Agi for the elf. If you put in 2, that means you're buying two ranks, not that you want the stat to be at 2.

The most confusing part is, the first point is free, which throws alot of people at first.

[Cabral]

It looks fine in Excel, but I may be able to figure out what is causing the problem. Could you tell me more specifically which cells are not appearing correctly?

I open the sheet and say enable macros and do not update links to external files.
Okay weird. Switching between the sheet and this screen to post caused the cells that didn't revert to revert. Clearly an OpenOffice issue. What must be happening is that the macro is running but it may be too much for Open Office to refresh at one go. Thinking about it, it's surpising the macro is even running. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am not sure if it was Blakkie or Arturkis who originally implemented the stat raising functionality, but I like the way it works. I thought it was weird at first, but once you get used to it, it totally makes sense.
<snip>
Now the number you are entering is what you want the base score to be, before adding in racial/infection bonuses. Basically if you want a human to have a 6 str, you put a 6. If you want an elf to have a 6 agility, you need only put 5, because they get +1 from race. Either way, the 6th point is the one that costs 25 bp.

The logic is easy for an elf, but what about races that get a penalty? By that logic, a dwarf shouldn't be charged for reaction until the 3rd point (2-1 =1 which is free) ...

In my previous spreadsheet (just worked for BP and was much more manual), I had a base value and max value displayed then a column for added points (generated an error message if you went over) The columns from my spreadsheet were Race, Base, Max, Points, Base Value, Magic, Cyber, Total and (BP) Cost

Now that I see how it works, it's easy enough, but just not very intuitive.

Perhaps in the near future I will get a desktop computer at home and put open office on it, so I can test my sheet in that environment.

I have it on my U3 drive, takes up about 220 megs on a 1 gig stick. (as an aside, my USB drive was made by Ativa and I was able to upgrade from 1.2 (?) to 1.6* with the Sansoft Cruzer install. It might be possible to use the same install to turn a standard jump drive into a U3 drive.) I also have Opera, Firefox and XnView (comes in surprisingly handy at work) on it as well.

I had actually considered maybe developing an SR4 character generator for the U3, but I didn't want my name on a list of developers. It might also have been not free or something. Oh well. The spreadsheet makes it unnecessary anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

*v1.6 is Vista Compatable

Edit:
How do I manipulate the cost modifier flags? Currently, with everything set to false (inlcuding Karma System), it says an elf costs 60 BP and a gnome costs 25 BP ...

[DamienKnight]

I open the sheet and say enable macros and do not update links to external files.

You are talking about cells not appearing correctly when switching between karma_build_system and back. This has nothing to do with macros. A macro can be used in the form of a checkbox that is linked to the cell, but the formatting is accomplished with conditional formatting on all the BP cells, which has a formula that is based off of the 'Karma_Build_System', which is defined in a true false cell beneath the Options box. If you open the sheet directly after downloading it, and select 'disable macros', the Box of controls should be displaced and the true/false cells revealed. Simply change those cells and the conditional formatting will do the rest.

What you likely need to do is trigger a formula update/refresh, but someone else will have to tell you how to do that in open office.

takes up about 220 megs

The issue is not lack of space, but that I work on the spreadsheet with a laptop from my workplace, so I am not supposed to install 3rd party apps like open office (I could, but I wont). I think Open Office is fantastic, and used to use it before my home computer died.

The logic is easy for an elf, but what about races that get a penalty? By that logic, a dwarf shouldn't be charged for reaction until the 3rd point (2-1 =1 which is free) ...

See p. 73 of the SR Core book. Races have minimum stats, and that is what the sheet goes off of. A dwarf's minimum reaction is 1, and max is 5. If you put 5 in it, it costs 55 (2-4 = 3 x 10 = 30 + 25 for 5th point is 55). Negatives dont make attributes harder to purchase in SR4, they just set the limit.

What would be more logical to you? If you could setup a simple example of what your ideal functionality is, just setup a cell for agility, with a cell that can be changed between human, elf and troll, which calculates BP and/or Karma cost, and facilitates both BP and Karma (BP representing starting attribute, Karma representing a raise after creation through earned karma). If I like what you have Ill use it to improve the Character Generator.

[Cabral]

You are talking about cells not appearing correctly when switching between karma_build_system and back. This has nothing to do with macros.

Initially, I was recounting steps from open to close. The cells are refreshed but the display isn't until I alt-tab or do something else that causes a refresh. The problem is how much can be refreshed in one go with OpenOffice, not a spreadsheet glitch. In other words, nevermind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The issue is not lack of space, but that I work on the spreadsheet with a laptop from my workplace, so I am not supposed to install 3rd party apps like open office (I could, but I wont). I think Open Office is fantastic, and used to use it before my home computer died.

That was my point about U3. It installs on the jump drive, not the computer. And you can take it with you and use the same software on other computers. No install, just plug it in and it should autorun like a CD giving you a second "start menu" in your system tray to run apps you have on the U3 drive. The only thing is I don't know if you need a U3 drive to begin with or can convert an existing drive to U3. Either way, a 1 gig U3 drive is like $10

It's worth looking into, particularly since with a bigger drive, you can store your non-work files on it if you're not working on an external hard drive.

[Dumori]

portable apps branced off from U3 it's all free open source apps open office included. It will run off any drive and is easly cumstomisable. You don't even need the menu it run the programs. But it is a bit techincal with out the menu.

[AllTheNothing]

It could be that my chargen's version is not up to date but:

1) the Accel field(s) do nothing when the veicle is selected

2) in the speed field is shown the running accel value instead of the veicle's speed value

3) the "Used Slots" field keeps displaing a "0" (Wow unlimited modification potenzial)

4) the Thundercloud Contrail (Arsenal p.108) and the Hyundai Shin-Hyung (Arsenal p.109) should have 10 and 14 slots (body+4)

Just my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , keep up the good work

[DamienKnight]

It could be that my chargen's version is not up to date but:

1) the Accel field(s) do nothing when the veicle is selected

2) in the speed field is shown the running accel value instead of the veicle's speed value

3) the "Used Slots" field keeps displaing a "0" (Wow unlimited modification potenzial)

4) the Thundercloud Contrail (Arsenal p.108) and the Hyundai Shin-Hyung (Arsenal p.109) should have 10 and 14 slots (body+4)

Just my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , keep up the good work

I went through and fixed all the mess you found, and the Vehicles page will be in much better shape with version Beta 6.
Thanks for help with Beta Testing AllTheNothing!

[AllTheNothing]

I went through and fixed all the mess you found, and the Vehicles page will be in much better shape with version Beta 6.
Thanks for help with Beta Testing AllTheNothing!

Beta Tester?......... I thought I was a Bug Hunter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ; speaking seriously with all the effort you're putting in it ,for the sake of all of us, that's a very little thing.

Any indiscretion on Beta 6?

[awolfromlife]

I don't know if they are somewhere else, but under armor mods I did not see Shock Frills

[cndblank]

Now that we have a character sheet (Good work!)

Is there any way to send the character to text?

Thanks

[DamienKnight]

Now that we have a character sheet (Good work!)

Is there any way to send the character to text?

Thanks

Yes, all we have to do is decide on a format. This is vital.. it cannot be altered with every release the way the character generator is.

I would like to create an SR4 standard character file format. So far I can think of the following requirements:

It must be ascii/ansi compatible. This keeps it simple to read/write from any programming language. Ideally someone could create a character on the spreadsheet, then save it to a file and import it into a C++ or Java Character generator.

It must be written so that new fields can be added without breaking previous versions. For example, if the first version includes attributes but not calculated attributes, and then later we decide to include calculated attributes, we need to be able to add calculated attributes to the file and have the file still readable by programs written to work with the old version.

So basically, two rules:
1. TEXT
2. Backwardly compatible


I was thinking of something kind of like config files, with bracketed headers, then variable names, followed by = then their value:

[Attributes]
strength=4
agility=3
[Qualities]
cyberware compatibility=10
vindictive=5 # Random comment here
[Resources]
debt paid=0


With the above example, I would have the following guidelines:
1. All data must be under a header
2. Headers must be in square brackets []
3. Each item must have a variable followed by an equal '=' sign, followed by a value
4. # can be used for comments

Once we agree on a format, I will create a new (hidden) worksheet which lists all variables, then has a cell that links to where the values of that variable is on the sheet, then has some formatting cells. Then end result will be outputted on a visible sheet, which can manually be exported by the user, or can be exported via a macro.

I could then create a macro which reads a data file and overwrites all data on the sheet with data from the file. After that, users could easily export/import their characters between new versions of the sheet (woohoo). If any good character generator programs are created, they can write them to import these sr4 character sheets.

Oh, I would want to use an extension like 's4c' to indicate it is a 'Shadowrun 4th edition Character' file. Or it could simply be a .txt file extension.

Any thoughts or input from the community on this? I havent started implementing any of this, so I am very open to alternative ideas.

[Cabral]

Why not XML (or XHTML)?

The XML/XHTML files themselves are text files and they can include formatting. You should be able to separate the formatting from the crunch enough to read fairly well in a text editor. The downside is many automated XML "authoring" programs (MS) will add extra junk. I don't know if a macro could do it without said junk.