ED metaplot, What do you think? Options

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

How come I read that so many people get up in arms over the continuing meta plot involving characters, items, and events from Earthdawn? I was talking to a member of my gaming group last night and he said the one thing he didn't really care for in SR was the continuing ED metaplot. I also see posters here who get put off by the mention of these things. So here's my question:

Shouldn't this be a major selling point for the Shadowrun universe? I mean, the thing that drew me to SR was the richly detailed world where all these forces of magic and tech are colliding and competing with each other. There is a full history that spans an entirely different game to compliment it too. From what I hear, there is another one being added to the mix to chronicle the 8th world.

That said, why don't those who complain go play some other game with a universal system if they want to create a standard cyberpunk realm without mythology and history? Why stick it out with SR if one wants to complain about the world and the plot when the story develops? Isn't that the point of a specific setting, is to enjoy it? I'm just trying to get input here because I guess I really can't wrap my mind around this.

[Synner667]

The whole ED crossover has been stopped dead, or very downplayed in SR4...
...As has much of everything developed in SR1-3.

SR 4 on its own is an ok system...
...But is not really a continuation of SR 1-3.

The only thing, to my mind, that made SR worth playing was the history/metaplot.

Without it, SR is yet another cyberpunk game, and not a very good one...
...Compared to the others out there - Corporation, CP2020, TORG, Dark Heresy, Deus Ex Machina, HERO, GURPS.

[Ol' Scratch]

I liked the allusions to the Fourth World.

I hated how everything in the Sixth World was just a plot from someone's Mary Sue from the Fourth World.

[Fortune]

I really don't see the problem at all. The Meta-plot is there for those that like it, but is easily ignorable by those that are not interested in that type of thing. I am of the opinion that the inclusion of references to the Fourth World and the like serve to enrich the setting, whereas to discontinue any such references would not actually add anything to the game world.

[Ryu]

I like the ED connections, I´m already running an old-artifacts campaign. That has to be the first time I´m looking forward to some "adventure" books.

And nowadays ignoring the references is pretty easy - you have to know what you are looking for in some cases.

[Stahlseele]

the only thing i don't like about the ED Metaplot is, that all of it is basically OMGWTF exalted like end off the world armageddon apocalypse stuff . . well, aside from being about some mary sue from the 4th world *snickers*
if it were just slighty lower-scale, i could probably live well enough with it . .

[sunnyside]

Personally I like the Earthdawn connection, because:

1. It makes it easier for me to accept game concepts like Edge and Karma when they are "real".

2. Lets you have some fun with deep dark secrets and the like. Which are very in genre.

However it's purely optional and I would never make it a selling point. I find it deliciously fun when I as the GM am the only one with a clue as to the connection. Especially if I have people who have played both games because I can slowly drop hints and watch their reactions when they "get it" for the first time.

And yes I agree that the deep backstory is critical to why Shadowrun is good. To elaborate on why it's because people who already understand the city and setting can interact on a different level with the game world than some new dungeon crawlers. And compared to other games in the genre I find the "three worlds" of Shadowrun play out better on the table. Anybody who played with experienced CP2020 players and discovered the team was five solos knows what I'm talking about.

[HappyDaze]

Shouldn't this be a major selling point for the Shadowrun universe? I mean, the thing that drew me to SR was the richly detailed world where all these forces of magic and tech are colliding and competing with each other. There is a full history that spans an entirely different game to compliment it too.

SR1 was around before ED and did just fine without the connections. Now people buy into SR4 without knowing of the connections. I think it's safe to say that the connections need not be there to make an enjoyable game setting.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's definitely a big hindrance now for the connections now. Earthdawn is no longer in the hands of the same people working on Shadowrun and neither is required or even expected to follow the storylines or limitations the other system and worlds cover. That also makes it hard for new players to get their hands (or even catch) on to the references between the two settings.

[Red_Cap]

SR1 was around before ED and did just fine without the connections. Now people buy into SR4 without knowing of the connections. I think it's safe to say that the connections need not be there to make an enjoyable game setting.

True statement, but I feel like the ED connections are a big part of the overall setting. A runner crew in Seattle, Berlin, or Tokyo can get by just fine without ever knowing why Ghostwalker and Lofwyr don't like each other or what half the bequests in Dunklezahn's Will mean. But for those of us who like the big picture, these thousands-of-years-old ties between some of the movers & shakers are key.

[HappyDaze]

That's definitely a big hindrance now for the connections now. Earthdawn is no longer in the hands of the same people working on Shadowrun and neither is required or even expected to follow the storylines or limitations the other system and worlds cover. That also makes it hard for new players to get their hands (or even catch) on to the references between the two settings.

True, and since the backstory is generally lost, that makes the ED-links seem more like Mary Sues than ever. I'd rather see the links be non-sapients (things, places, writings discovered. etc.) just to avoid the crap we have seen.

[It trolls!]

What I hated about the crossover was less that it was there but more how it was tied in. As a mere shadowrunner you're just a spectator to the forces that collide (if you're even aware of them) when it's all about IEs, dragons and metaplanar beings that want to eat your brain (come to think of it, this sounds like Cthulhu).
I like how they downplayed the connection in SR4 because it gave you room to reinterpret things and you didn't have to beat new players over the head with all that metaplot.
If they reintroduce it, I just hope they make the connection more approachable for common 400BP groups.
Oh, and kill off some IEs!

[sunnyside]

What I hated about the crossover was less that it was there but more how it was tied in. As a mere shadowrunner you're just a spectator to the forces that collide (if you're even aware of them) when it's all about IEs, dragons and metaplanar beings that want to eat your brain (come to think of it, this sounds like Cthulhu).
I like how they downplayed the connection in SR4 because it gave you room to reinterpret things and you didn't have to beat new players over the head with all that metaplot.
If they reintroduce it, I just hope they make the connection more approachable for common 400BP groups.
Oh, and kill off some IEs!

You're not always just supposed to be a spectator. However you probably will be if you're trying to get involved fresh out of the box.

I don't have a problem with that at all. I like the ED crossover stuff the most for when your players are slipping into the "been there, run that" mentality and cash and karma don't burn in their pockets like they used to. Then it's time to take it up a notch. Play Harlequins Back or pick something on the scale of one of the novels.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Going along the SR4 downplay a bit...

Hasn't this mostly been because of the pushing for core rules to establish a complete 4ed? I mean, it's only proper that we won't really start seeing fluff and metaplot until we get all the bases covered out of the gate, right? Now's the time to really start exploring where things stand 2072 in relation to ED and the shape of things to come (as reflected in the Sept Chat).

I guess another branch to the question would be; Why does everyone really hate the Immortal Elves and Draconic machinations so much? I mean, if you had to much influence over key players and plot, wouldn't that kill a lot of the helplessness and dystopian feel of what a Shadowrunner really is?

[Wesley Street]

What's all this "Mary Sue" nonsense being tossed about? Which NPCs were wish-fulfillment fantasies for the developers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

You mean like the all-powerful Immortal Elves or Great Dragons who the immeasureable power of Plot Device to do everything and everything in the Sixth World? (And if anyone tries to tell me Harlequinn wasn't one of the original designer's characters, I will backhand you so hard.)

[psychophipps]

What I hated about the crossover was less that it was there but more how it was tied in. As a mere shadowrunner you're just a spectator to the forces that collide (if you're even aware of them) when it's all about IEs, dragons and metaplanar beings that want to eat your brain (come to think of it, this sounds like Cthulhu).
I like how they downplayed the connection in SR4 because it gave you room to reinterpret things and you didn't have to beat new players over the head with all that metaplot.
If they reintroduce it, I just hope they make the connection more approachable for common 400BP groups.
Oh, and kill off some IEs!

*LOL*

I agree completely. It's like the classic first Harlequin adventure. Sure, you're doing stuff but you're also playing back fiddle to an pair of uber-mages and their Clash of the Titans. The whole thing seemed like you were there just so the GM can read off the poofy meta-plot bits at you between your group's die rolls.

The Cthulu(-lite) description is also pretty accurate, IMO. Yeah, they're technically different but the Horrors are a bit blatant in the ol' knockoff for us Cthulu players not to say, "Umm...I thought this game used d100% for task resolution. WTH?!?"

And SURGEd is such a blatant excuse to "randomly" add the old ED-type meta-variants as to be...well...blatant. And annoying. And frustrating. And totally making me kinda pissed off right now so I'll head off to my SR game with a metaplot that I think is fresh as hell and not blatant, annoying, and frustrating.

[Ancient History]

I'm just going to throw this one out there, but pretty much everybody who wrote, or was associated with writing, any of those things isn't lined up to write the Next Couple Things. They're not even in the freelancer pool. In fact, most of them havenae even been writing for SR4. So bear it in mind when I say efforts are being made to do things differently this time around.

[hyzmarca]

What I hated about the crossover was less that it was there but more how it was tied in. As a mere shadowrunner you're just a spectator to the forces that collide (if you're even aware of them) when it's all about IEs, dragons and metaplanar beings that want to eat your brain (come to think of it, this sounds like Cthulhu).

How is that different from any other run? I mean, Renraku hires you to steak a bit of paydata from Ares or vice-versa, it isn't like you'll end up equal in power to a megacorp yourself by the end of the adventure. The entire premise of the game is that the PCs are paid pawns in games of global intrigue between powerful rivals. Usually, those rivals are megacorps.

[psychophipps]

How is that different from any other run? I mean, Renraku hires you to steak a bit of paydata from Ares or vice-versa, it isn't like you'll end up equal in power to a megacorp yourself by the end of the adventure. The entire premise of the game is that the PCs are paid pawns in games of global intrigue between powerful rivals. Usually, those rivals are megacorps.

Because working for the megacorps doesn't involve a tie-in to a failed, and now defunct except to the current DevGrp, fantasy game and setting?

The megacorps are powerful because they're these huge organizations with tons of employees, money, and political clout. You can take this information to create leverage and/or to maneuver around them to keep them from squishing you like a bug.

IEs, dragons, and metaplanar wankery, however, are "cool" because they're...well...IEs, dragons, and metaplanar wankery. They tend to lack non-metaplot back story, have no real weakness for a SR group to exploit, and don't squish you like a bug because it's not in ther module and you're beneath their notice.

Is it more fun as a player to not be squished like a bug by a huge megalithic organization because you're just that damn slick or to not be squished like a bug because you're so beneath the (insert metaplot uber-baddass here)'s notice that it's not worth the casual muscular flexing that would make your entire party esplodie simultaneously?

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Because working for the megacorps doesn't involve a tie-in to a failed, and now defunct except to the current DevGrp, fantasy game and setting?

Like having spells and cycles of magic already doesn't tie the game setting the other events of ED and soon Equinox? Lets face it, if it weren't for the magic and the metaplot, Shadowrun would just be Cybperpunk2020, Cyberhero, or any other random cyberpunk setting RPG. These uses of magic and history and the mixing of tech and the mystic are what makes this realm and game really have staying power. I mean, take a look at which games had people play them when cyberpunk was a fashionable trend and which game has a growing and faithful audience.

[MJBurrage]

Immortal Elves and Dragons playing power games has been part of Shadowrun since day one. So has the cycle of magic, and the existence of the Fourth World.

Earthdawn was created from the very beginning as Shadowrun's Fourth World. This was very clear to me the moment I read the ED core book. The fact that FASA was usually coy about the connection in press releases does not remove or lesson the obvious connection.

See "Humans and the Cycle of Magic", published in 1989 for the first detail on what was published as Earthdawn in 1993.

[Fuchs]

I liked the allusions to the Fourth World.

I hated how everything in the Sixth World was just a plot from someone's Mary Sue from the Fourth World.

That sums it up. I got nothing about links to the past, artifacts, and similar stuff, but don't turn the world into a playground for stupid uber-NPCs from the past. In past editions, IEs and GDs were much too common, and far too many plots were linked to them. They should be much more in the "background", up to individual GMs if they play a prominent role in SR or not.

[Glyph]

The trouble is that Earthdawn doesn't really fit Earth's past - it would have been better off as its own, separate world. But somewhere along the line, some of the developers thought it would be cute to make these subtle little tie-ins to Earthdawn, whether it logically fit or not. And that's all it is. You don't need to have Earthdawn to have Shadowrun - you only need a mythical Fourth Age, and the resurgence of magic.

[Fuchs]

*LOL*

I agree completely. It's like the classic first Harlequin adventure. Sure, you're doing stuff but you're also playing back fiddle to an pair of uber-mages and their Clash of the Titans. The whole thing seemed like you were there just so the GM can read off the poofy meta-plot bits at you between your group's die rolls.

The GM that run HQ1 for us was not that good an english speaker or reader, and while that meant some horrible railroading in one part, it allowed us to have our cybertroll spend 20 karma on buying successes, knock out Ehran the scribe in hand to hand combat and drag his unconscious, tied up butt to Harlequin with a "Her'es the guy you wanted, where's our money?".

Only time IEs added to the game in my experience and opinion.