ED metaplot, What do you think? Options

[Fuchs]

On IE killability.

Personally I'd like to see them take the tone I've only seen in CP2020's "Listen up you Primitive Screwheads" It's like a traditional GM supplement type book but one where the writers berate the GMs for screwing up the game world so often in parts and things like that.

In short I'd like them to lay out the stats for the characters in question, and then have a paragraph where they say something along the lines of "And if you're a crappy strategist or just stupid they players will be able to kill this character". But at least the players have a chance.

Though especially in current editions you don't have to go magic to get your epic on. There has also been the whole AI shenanigans. And of course you always could do machinations of regular humans who own megacorps, however as I've said GMs tend to not be able to do that worth a hooey.

First rule when you want to avoid the death of an NPC: Do not show the NPC in game ever.

If you don't want an NPC getting killed, do not introduce it to the PCs. Do not have it appear at all, keep it away from the attention of the players and the PCs and use it as a background power working through lots of intermediaries. Coincidentally, it also keeps the game from gettig dominated by a GM-(N)PC.

[Grinder]

The harsh reality is that this game doesn't even need a backstory for the most part, and certainly not one as in-depth as the one provided. Any GM out there could simply make stuff upon the fly to answer the player's questions about where the magic came from, who the president is, why the US got split up. Having it all out there is kind of nice in that these questions are basically answered but adding the meta-plot to the history also just buttonholes the GM into either going with the flow that they think sucks and doesn't fit their campaign or to tell the players that their world is different than the one provided so the players come up with more questions as to what else is different.

Maybe GURPS or another generic system would better suit your gaming style then?

[Grinder]

That's definitely a big hindrance now for the connections now. Earthdawn is no longer in the hands of the same people working on Shadowrun and neither is required or even expected to follow the storylines or limitations the other system and worlds cover. That also makes it hard for new players to get their hands (or even catch) on to the references between the two settings.

RedBrick and Catalyst are in touch, no worries.

[It trolls!]

First rule when you want to avoid the death of an NPC: Do not show the NPC in game ever.

If you don't want an NPC getting killed, do not introduce it to the PCs. Do not have it appear at all, keep it away from the attention of the players and the PCs and use it as a background power working through lots of intermediaries. Coincidentally, it also keeps the game from gettig dominated by a GM-(N)PC.

That is probably the only reason why most human megacorp CEOs in SR have survived... until the PC hacker can exploit his way into a Thor platform.

To go into a different direction: The title "Dawn of the Artifacts" leaves lots of possibilities to go without plastering the campaign with IEs and GDs. If there's rumors about any unusual artifacts having surfaced, there's bound to be enough mundane parties after them. Maybe IEs are behind some of those, but there's no reason to have Harlequin himself show up to the PCs and yell "Bring me my magic backscratcher from 10000 years ago!"

[ravensmuse]

My own personal belief, since I'm not going to go into histrionics re: IEs / GDs (I like the GDs better, but that's because I've gotten over my "elves are awesome!" schtick and like kobolds much better ((IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) )) -

I like the Earthdawn connections, but I'm not a huge fan of the fact that the Horrors might return at some point. I know that that will probably *never* get written up, ever and I realize that it's a completely weird thing to get hung up on, but I like Shadowrun and I don't want to see it completely formatted because some big bad boo spirits show up and raze the place.

Again: I realize that this is an irrational thought. I can get over that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sunnyside]

If you don't want an NPC getting killed, do not introduce it to the PCs. Do not have it appear at all, keep it away from the attention of the players and the PCs and use it as a background power working through lots of intermediaries. Coincidentally, it also keeps the game from gettig dominated by a GM-(N)PC.

Actually while Harliequin 1 could get a bit long winded at the end, Halies back did, I thought, a pretty good job of putting the players in the spotlight. I'm pretty sure Harlequin actually gets taken down and the PCs have to save him or something like that.

Oh and for the out of the box chars not every dragon is great and not every high end mage is immortal.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Maybe GURPS or another generic system would better suit your gaming style then?

see, this was my major point aimed at all those who are complaining about the metaplot, the IEs, the GDs and the good old fashioned ED references. If you want generic, why are you playing Shadowrun? Shouldn't you be falling in love with your own completely free form, player driven, bland sandbox world? Shadowrun is a world with rules and a great deal of perspective. Why wouldn't the 10,000 year old entity have levels of control and knowledge to keep a bunch of runners from offing him or her? I think the common misconception on the side of of those displeased with this is that you're not fully understanding the futile situation of a runner to begin with. Runners don't change the world, they are just the puppets. It's the puppet masters who choose to what plays to make to change the world. I mean come on. Even when dealing with the corporations, most runs are rendered futile. Yeah, your team succeeded in delivering the evil corp device to the news networks and exposed the megacorp for the horrible controlling monsters they are. Too bad all of your hard work causes no revolution and the corp doesn't fall. PR spin and counter shadowruns and corporate maneuvering render everything you did that was earthshaking completely null and void. Would you like to know which events are earth shaking? They are the ones written down in the books because they are noteworthy.

If your players want to play in a realm where their actions and decisions actually matter, you need to play a different cyberpunk game where the idea of behind a megacorp is that it is a bloated and lethargic bureaucratic monolith that while it has influences all the way down to the street, can be manipulated and avoided/twisted to your design. In Shadowrun, your actions don't matter and aren't going to be world changing unless someone or something with great power manipulated everything else for them to be. If megacorps can buy silence and control, what levels of awareness are those IEs and GDs going to have? your runners sure as hell aren't going to do something they don't want you to do. And if you cross them, you're bent over and pretty well screwed. That's the futile life of a runner. You're an errand boy, a chess piece. And maybe, just maybe, you'll be rewarded by living long enough and have a few luxuries for choosing the winning side.

[Fuchs]

see, this was my major point aimed at all those who are complaining about the metaplot, the IEs, the GDs and the good old fashioned ED references. If you want generic, why are you playing Shadowrun? Shouldn't you be falling in love with your own completely free form, player driven, bland sandbox world? Shadowrun is a world with rules and a great deal of perspective. Why wouldn't the 10,000 year old entity have levels of control and knowledge to keep a bunch of runners from offing him or her? I think the common misconception on the side of of those displeased with this is that you're not fully understanding the futile situation of a runner to begin with. Runners don't change the world, they are just the puppets. It's the puppet masters who choose to what plays to make to change the world. I mean come on. Even when dealing with the corporations, most runs are rendered futile. Yeah, your team succeeded in delivering the evil corp device to the news networks and exposed the megacorp for the horrible controlling monsters they are. Too bad all of your hard work causes no revolution and the corp doesn't fall. PR spin and counter shadowruns and corporate maneuvering render everything you did that was earthshaking completely null and void. Would you like to know which events are earth shaking? They are the ones written down in the books because they are noteworthy.

If your players want to play in a realm where their actions and decisions actually matter, you need to play a different cyberpunk game where the idea of behind a megacorp is that it is a bloated and lethargic bureaucratic monolith that while it has influences all the way down to the street, can be manipulated and avoided/twisted to your design. In Shadowrun, your actions don't matter and aren't going to be world changing unless someone or something with great power manipulated everything else for them to be. If megacorps can buy silence and control, what levels of awareness are those IEs and GDs going to have? your runners sure as hell aren't going to do something they don't want you to do. And if you cross them, you're bent over and pretty well screwed. That's the futile life of a runner. You're an errand boy, a chess piece. And maybe, just maybe, you'll be rewarded by living long enough and have a few luxuries for choosing the winning side.

Some want to play in a world where there are no gods, and everyone can die when shot enough.

And I don't really get why you'd think Shadowrun would be generic without the IEs and ED referneces. Shadowrun is much, much more than "The Complete Book of Elves, Cyberpunk edition".

[psychophipps]

If your players want to play in a realm where their actions and decisions actually matter, you need to play a different cyberpunk game where the idea of behind a megacorp is that it is a bloated and lethargic bureaucratic monolith that while it has influences all the way down to the street, can be manipulated and avoided/twisted to your design. In Shadowrun, your actions don't matter and aren't going to be world changing unless someone or something with great power manipulated everything else for them to be. If megacorps can buy silence and control, what levels of awareness are those IEs and GDs going to have? your runners sure as hell aren't going to do something they don't want you to do. And if you cross them, you're bent over and pretty well screwed. That's the futile life of a runner. You're an errand boy, a chess piece. And maybe, just maybe, you'll be rewarded by living long enough and have a few luxuries for choosing the winning side.

Says you. I don't know about your game but the one I'm currently playing in involves the group trying to stop a large plot by demonic forces to gain control of the city by corrupting the leadership of both Lone Star and Knight Errant. These forces have been inflaming the generally chaotic conditions created by the changeover as a cover to push their agenda so they can bring more demons over without anyone with any power to stop them from noticing.
So our group, provided we don't die in the process, will be changing the leadership of both The Star and KE, killing a bunch of demons and saving the city all while running from the cops because we were framed for killing eight officers. We got a Chinese geomantic secret society, a crazy Ork ganger, and a French former GIGN hacker as our only allies and we're, in all honesty, doing quite well for ourselves so far.

So about that, "Chess pieces that won't ever change anything..." comment? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Some want to play in a world where there are no gods, and everyone can die when shot enough.

And I don't really get why you'd think Shadowrun would be generic without the IEs and ED referneces. Shadowrun is much, much more than "The Complete Book of Elves, Cyberpunk edition".

Well, Magic, and the flow of mana, dragons, critters, IEs and metaplaner horrors are what separate this game from other cyberpunk games.

Every cyberpunk game has megacorporations, chrome and the contrast of gritty street level mixed with 80s new wave flash. So what would Shadowrun be without the extra stuff that it appears users are complaining about? I mean, it'd still have its non-magic history and backstory too, but so do Deus Ex and Cyberpunk2020.

[Fuchs]

Seems to be a case of the "If you don't like ED in SR you're having badwrongfun!" mentality.

[Stahlseele]

Horrors came at the Top of mana right?
that's in Shadowruns 6th world how many years away? 2000?
by the time Shadowrun hits Edition 20 with the year being 4060 or something like that, it will be shadowrun: iin spaacee! . .
and i guess horrors won't like the warp all that much

[Fuchs]

Well, Magic, and the flow of mana, dragons, critters, IEs and metaplaner horrors are what separate this game from other cyberpunk games.

Every cyberpunk game has megacorporations, chrome and the contrast of gritty street level mixed with 80s new wave flash. So what would Shadowrun be without the extra stuff that it appears users are complaining about? I mean, it'd still have its non-magic history and backstory too, but so do Deus Ex and Cyberpunk2020.

Uh, not to destroy any illusions, but you can have magic, mana, dragons, critters and metaplanar horrors - and had in SR1 - without Immortal Elves, ED etc. Why do you equate magic with IEs anyway?

[psychophipps]

Uh, not to destroy any illusions, but you can have magic, mana, dragons, critters and metaplanar horrors - and had in SR1 - without Immortal Elves, ED etc. Why do you equate magic with IEs anyway?

One interesting metaplot I almost got started was that magic had returned because almost all of the magic was bottled up in the prison of various Horror/Cthulu-type baddies at the end of the last great magic age. This magic barrier was slowly breaking down so more, and more powerful examples, of these heebie-jeebies would be getting out unless the group could find a way to reverse the process or remake the prison.

It was a fun idea to dink around with but the other two GMs of our group decided that it was a bit on the epic side for their tastes.

I did get to use the uber-NPC, Sarah, I had made as a 9th Gate-esque nudger and potential low-end ass saver (never had to use her this way). She was really reined in power-wise (despite raising one PC from the dead after being a Shogoth snack and releasing him from "Hell" with phenomenal RPing on the player's part) and the players really enjoyed how I used her (even when she un-raised the PC at the end of the adventure).

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Seems to be a case of the "If you don't like ED in SR you're having badwrongfun!" mentality.

I admit my bias, but I also pointed that out at the beginning of the thread. I wanted to know why others didn't like them. I also said I couldn't wrap my mind around the mentality of disliking these things because logically, it all makes a lot of sense to me.

@Stahseele: If the horrors returned at the top of the mana waveform, they'd only be around for a month or two, a year, a decade, or a century at most. I am sure there would be sufficient mana well before the peak that would keep them around for a while and actually make them a threat.

[Gast]

The point is that Shadowrun slowly went from "Cyberpunk with Fantasy pieces" to "Fantasy with Cyberpunk pieces", which was what bugged me so much I skipped the whole 3rd Ed. And I like Earthdawn. It's just that all the ED metaplot kills the heart of SR and makes most of what happens in the Cyberpunk age meaningless except for the secret ED references, and that's just not cool, no matter how much we all like the feeling when we uncover some cryptic reference.

[Red_Cap]

And the solution for those who don't want a metaplotted, IE- or GD-affected game is so damn simple: tell your GM not to include them. Run a street-level campaign where its just the runners, the megas, and those pesky Star bastards always trying to shoot your ass.

I've been playing this game since 3rd edition came out, and not once -- not once -- have any my crews ever encountered a Horror, an Immortal Elf, one of the gee-wizz Artifacts from Dunkie's Will, a Great Dragon (Hell, any dragon, for that matter), or anything of the sort. Don't want to deal with metaplot? Don't buy the modules. So Lofwyr and Celedyr are rivals. Fine. All your players need to know is that S-K is hiring for runs against NeoNet. It's too. Fucking. Easy.

But don't go harping on about how all these grand schemes and immortal, all-powerful beings ruin the game because they don't. They give it character. They give it depth. If it's too deep for you, swim in the shallow end.

[Gast]

The point you miss is that I'd like a good metaplot. Sure, Any metaplot adds depth, and I can do without it. But SR has shown that they can do RA Shutdown and they ALMOST left the immortal elf bullshit out. They could have done without it, but then, it probably wouldn't have been SR to them, I don't know.
See, I like metaplot. What I don't like is some crappy Superdragon from an astral poophole to fuck up a megacorp owning an entire continent and getting away with it, because it just stinks, no matter how many people go OOOO I GOT THE SECRET HINT TO BOOK 114 PAGE 235 ITS A PLOT! I'd like more metaplots that work with the stuff Shadowrun's got exclusively, but it gets outshined by the immortal magic metasapience conspiracy every time, and that sucks. I wouldn't need Shadowrun for playing most of that.

[psychophipps]

And the solution for those who don't want a metaplotted, IE- or GD-affected game is so damn simple: tell your GM not to include them. Run a street-level campaign where its just the runners, the megas, and those pesky Star bastards always trying to shoot your ass.

But don't go harping on about how all these grand schemes and immortal, all-powerful beings ruin the game because they don't. They give it character. They give it depth. If it's too deep for you, swim in the shallow end.

The problem with this idea is that you don't realize that we anti-metaplot people are basically fucked either way. Ok, we ignore the metaplot stuff but now the writing for the entire affected game world is done differently from there on out. It might be subtle, but the difference will be there and now, despite us not buying the modules and trying to ignore it, we have to cowboy up and eat the changes that are brought on by this story arc we have no interest in.

Now, if they promise (pinky swears!) to not add a single piece of equipment, spells, traits, or adept abilities and furthermore swear (don't forget those pinkies!) not to change the status, affiliation, number, orientation, or implied purpose of a single predetermined character, group, corporation, country, city or other personage and/or location during the process of this story arc that "we can just ignore" so our games are completely unaffected until and including the release of another core book, then, well, I'm good to go and say they should break that puppy out despite any misgivings on my part.

Otherwise, they should just come out, tell me "BOHICA, bitch!" and do this thing without worrying about what the other side of the fanbase thinks.

[Wesley Street]

I've been playing this game since 3rd edition came out, and not once -- not once -- have any my crews ever encountered a Horror, an Immortal Elf, one of the gee-wizz Artifacts from Dunkie's Will, a Great Dragon (Hell, any dragon, for that matter), or anything of the sort. Don't want to deal with metaplot? Don't buy the modules. So Lofwyr and Celedyr are rivals. Fine. All your players need to know is that S-K is hiring for runs against NeoNet. It's too. Fucking. Easy.

But don't go harping on about how all these grand schemes and immortal, all-powerful beings ruin the game because they don't. They give it character. They give it depth. If it's too deep for you, swim in the shallow end.

Well put.

I've been playing since 1st Edition and as a GM and player I've never knowingly run into any ED crossover material. Or if I did I wasn't aware that that's what it was. I didn't even know the two were tied together until I did some digging years later. Even then I thought it was just rumor. I don't mind Earthdawn being the maybe/maybe-not "official" Fourth Age of magic in the Shadowrun universe but it hasn't changed anything in the feel of my games. Immortal Elves, Grand Dragons, and Megacorporations are all the same monolithic entities that runners struggle to, at best, survive against.

I don't understand the mentality of "If I can't kill it, I don't like it." Shadowrun isn't D&D. Unless you step outside the bounds of traditional SR, a player character is never going to rise to the level of a demigod who slays Lofwyr, Rumyo, Damien Knight and Richard Villiers, absorbs their assets, and sets up a personal sex-pad with Sally Tsung and Nadja Daviar (brown nipples and all) on a Hawaiian island that he conquers with his personal aircraft carrier. That's not how the mechanics of the game are set up.

PS: That's a Mary-Sue.

[Steampunk]

The problem with this idea is that you don't realize that we anti-metaplot people are basically fucked either way. Ok, we ignore the metaplot stuff but now the writing for the entire affected game world is done differently from there on out. It might be subtle, but the difference will be there and now, despite us not buying the modules and trying to ignore it, we have to cowboy up and eat the changes that are brought on by this story arc we have no interest in.

So what? There are dozens of Changes going on without you even have a connection to the reason of these changes. Imho people who don't like the metaplot but can't ignore it are just searching for something to rant about. Sorry, but what important things have happend that forced you to even MENTION this metaplot? Most people in 2070 don't know anything concerning this metaplot.

And sorry: It's impossible to write a campaign, backstory or something like that without people starting to complain about it. Face it: People LOVE to complain and they will always find something to complain about.

[Fuchs]

Well put.

I've been playing since 1st Edition and as a GM and player I've never knowingly run into any ED crossover material. Or if I did I wasn't aware that that's what it was. I didn't even know the two were tied together until I did some digging years later. Even then I thought it was just rumor. I don't mind Earthdawn being the maybe/maybe-not "official" Fourth Age of magic in the Shadowrun universe but it hasn't changed anything in the feel of my games. Immortal Elves, Grand Dragons, and Megacorporations are all the same monolithic entities that runners struggle to, at best, survive against.

I don't understand the mentality of "If I can't kill it, I don't like it." Shadowrun isn't D&D. Unless you step outside the bounds of traditional SR, a player character is never going to rise to the level of a demigod who slays Lofwyr, Rumyo, Damien Knight and Richard Villiers, absorbs their assets, and sets up a personal sex-pad with Sally Tsung and Nadja Daviar (brown nipples and all) on a Hawaiian island that he conquers with his personal aircraft carrier. That's not how the mechanics of the game are set up.

PS: That's a Mary-Sue.

If you never really encounter the IEs, then you can leave them out, right? Why include them if they're not used in game? Anyone can think them into the setting if they wish - and oh boy, do some fanboys wish them.

And the mentality that everythung can be killed is what separates Shadowrun from D&D. We don't have gods walking the earth.

[Fuchs]

So what? There are dozens of Changes going on without you even have a connection to the reason of these changes. Imho people who don't like the metaplot but can't ignore it are just searching for something to rant about. Sorry, but what important things have happend that forced you to even MENTION this metaplot? Most people in 2070 don't know anything concerning this metaplot.

And sorry: It's impossible to write a campaign, backstory or something like that without people starting to complain about it. Face it: People LOVE to complain and they will always find something to complain about.

You can do changes and metaplot without pulling out the trite elven uber-NPCs. Woudl you accept some "and a giant carebear came down from the sky, and changed Seattle into happy land" metaplot too?

[Ol' Scratch]

But don't go harping on about how all these grand schemes and immortal, all-powerful beings ruin the game because they don't. They give it character. They give it depth. If it's too deep for you, swim in the shallow end.

Someone else in this thread stated it pretty damn near perfect. You only survive the machinations of the godlings because you're so worthless as to be beneath their notice or waste the micro-second it would take to erase you from existence. You survive the machinations of the megacorporations and governments because you're just that damn good. There's a huge difference between the two, both practically and psychologically. And your oh-so-experienced "been playing since SR3!" claim means you weren't there when it was really bad. When damn near everything in the game revolved around the godlings or the "Enemy" (nudge nudge, wink wink, such a subtle reference!) in damn near every published book.

As previously mentioned: Occasionally referencing such beings and hinting at other things? Awesome. Drowning you in the designer's pet uber characters and former PCs-who-are-now-Gods-amongst-mortals? Not so much.

Yes, you can ignore it and carry on normally. But it doesn't remove the fact that they were overbearing and nearly everything in the Sixth World and Fifth World revolved around them. For example, just off the top of my head, Leonardo da Vinci, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Marie Antoinette, and Napoleon were all strongly hinted at as being immortal elves with even more implications to pretty much any and all historical figures of note. Hell, I seem to remember something about the damn holocaust having to do with them. It was belittling, embarrassing, and more often than not, just plain bad.

Metaplots don't need godlings, and they certainly don't need them to be rich and fascinating.

I'd gladly take a game world where a dragon was assassinated by the use of a tactical nuke over one who only died because he wanted to so he could bind with a cyberzombie to save humanity from the forces of evil for all eternity. The former actually, you know, adds to the world AND the game. The latter just makes one roll their eyes.

[Fuchs]

Yep.Notice how no one posts about the ordo maximus being stupid and game wrecking? No one gets angry at other cabals of mages? Or about bug spirits and other magic threats being over done?

That's because those elements do not strike you in the face with plot protection, and - unless you live in chicago - can decide how much of a role they play. They are one element of many shaping Shadowrun's World.

I just hope the Devs stay smart and keep the IEs' presence down to that degree, and don't repeat the "the earth revolves around the IEs!" "plot" from 2E.