ED metaplot, What do you think? Options

[Ol' Scratch]

Sorry, but what important things have happend that forced you to even MENTION this metaplot? Most people in 2070 don't know anything concerning this metaplot.

Never read or used Harlequinn and Harlequinn's Back I take it. Or Dragons of the Sixth World, or any of the other numerous books revolving around them.

[Fuchs]

Or the entire Leonardo plot, casually mentioning that the biggest advances for matrix tech and computers was the work of an IE. And later we hear that Damien Knight was helped by Dunkelzahn, another human achievement reduced.

[Steampunk]

I read, played and GMed both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But that still doesn't answer the question... If you don't like it, don't play it. What parts of Harlequinn or H's Back were you forced to even mention if you're not playing them? You were perfectly able to ignore them... So two stupid elves fought a even stupider duell and the world wasn't invaded by Horrors? Johnny Street-Level-Ganger doesn't know or even care about it.
Dunki was assassinated, probably magically? Things happen... Why does Johnny ever need to mention that this had something to do with Horrors? And who cares, where the Matrix-Tech came from? If you want to ignore it, simply assume that Matrix-Tech was invented totaly normally.

(Btw: I tend to ignore most novels as much as possible, as they tend to contain to much BS - yes, the world was not invaded by Horrors, but please let's try to avoid talking about certain drakes, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

[Ancient History]

In other news, Immortal Elves and Great Dragons spent ten thousand years wiping their asses with leaves until some plucky human invented toilet paper.

[Ol' Scratch]

In other news, Immortal Elves and Great Dragons spent ten thousand years wiping their asses with leaves until some plucky human invented toilet paper.

Nah. If it were written by the same people, it would have been revealed that Alachia (as some uber-powerful historical figure of note from the 14th-ish century) got tired of being reminded about the thorns everytime she wiped her ass with a pointy leaf that she whispered the idea into Mr. Inventor's head. And then used its creation as a snub towards [insert other IE here] and the resulting riches to help orchestrate her future plots.

[Fuchs]

I read, played and GMed both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But that still doesn't answer the question... If you don't like it, don't play it. What parts of Harlequinn or H's Back were you forced to even mention if you're not playing them? You were perfectly able to ignore them... So two stupid elves fought a even stupider duell and the world wasn't invaded by Horrors? Johnny Street-Level-Ganger doesn't know or even care about it.
Dunki was assassinated, probably magically? Things happen... Why does Johnny ever need to mention that this had something to do with Horrors? And who cares, where the Matrix-Tech came from? If you want to ignore it, simply assume that Matrix-Tech was invented totaly normally.

(Btw: I tend to ignore most novels as much as possible, as they tend to contain to much BS - yes, the world was not invaded by Horrors, but please let's try to avoid talking about certain drakes, etc. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) )

Why should that stuff be put into sourcebooks then? One can keep it as rumors, and everyone is happy. There's no need to mention IEs in sourcebooks as facts.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I'd gladly take a game world where a dragon was assassinated by the use of a tactical nuke over one who only died because he wanted to so he could bind with a cyberzombie to save humanity from the forces of evil for all eternity. The former actually, you know, adds to the world AND the game. The latter just makes one roll their eyes.

Actually, by definition, adding to the game would be the more complex reason, not only giving more backstory, but more character development and insight into the situation. The nuke would be detracting not only from the world, but the game play as well because insecure players who want to kill everything now all of the sudden find ways to acquire nukes and kill Dragons with them.

Oh, and as far as not wanting the world to change? What kind of boring game do you want to run where nothing happens and changes in the world around you? If, you want to run a game where everything stays the same for the sake of letting the players change things on their own, isn't that by proxy more or less the same kind of group that would ignore future sourcebooks because the conflict with what you've done in your world? Why would you even care what the devs write about then?

[HappyDaze]

Yes, you can ignore it and carry on normally. But it doesn't remove the fact that they were overbearing and nearly everything in the Sixth World and Fifth World revolved around them. For example, just off the top of my head, Leonardo da Vinci, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Marie Antoinette, and Napoleon were all strongly hinted at as being immortal elves with even more implications to pretty much any and all historical figures of note. Hell, I seem to remember something about the damn holocaust having to do with them. It was belittling, embarrassing, and more often than not, just plain bad.

This echoes my dislike of the old WoD line. Vampires - and sometimes other supernatural creatures - were the guiding hand for all of humanities achievements. To do the same with IEs doesn't add to the setting in my eyes, it cheapens it.

[the_real_elwood]

The Earthdawn metaplot doesn't bother me, mostly because it's so easily ignored. It doesn't have a huge impact on what the players do, so it's pretty easy to edit it out of your games if you want.

[Ol' Scratch]

Unless, you know, they went into who was responsible for the assassination attempt, the reasons behind it, the planning required for it, the methods of acquiring a tactical nuke at all, the difficulties in getting one into a major UCAS city undetected, the extreme difficulties of planting on under a presidental-elect's limo, and so on and so forth. Then you'd have the actual fall-out from the situation as the other great dragons got a dose of "oh fuck, these mortal can kill us" and their reactions to such a situation. Including but not limited to them hiring shadowrunners to find out who was responsible and how they did it. A more plausible will would have been a fascinating contribution to the game as well. And all of it could have and most likely would have involved shadowrunners to one degree or another. Hence adding to the game as well as the world.

But no, we just got some stupid Mary Sue wankfest and unquestioned decrees from a godling instead.

[Steampunk]

And why should any GM bring their players into the assassination if they want to ignore the metaplot? That's like hating Mickey Mouse and going to Disneyworld for a vacation...

[Ol' Scratch]

Are you really that dense?

Most of the people who hate the metaplot hate it because of the way the dragons and elves were presented, not because there was a metaplot.

[the_real_elwood]

Or the entire Leonardo plot, casually mentioning that the biggest advances for matrix tech and computers was the work of an IE. And later we hear that Damien Knight was helped by Dunkelzahn, another human achievement reduced.

As far as I know, ASIST was still invented by a human, without any assistance by immortal elves or great dragons.

And, the immortal elves and great dragons are similar to a really powerful NPC in any GM's campaign. It's more of a plot device to move the setting forward rather than a serious character in the world.

[Fuchs]

Because, you know, the election campaign might be an important event in the campaign?

That's part of the problem: Too much was spoiled by having it become the IE's playground, instead of some original, creative idea/plot. And too much built upon those antics.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Alright, just a check on the state of things right now. It seems that most of the complaints are with Harlequin and Dunkelzahn's death and Will. These seem to be the biggest ones. Am I right with this?

[Fuchs]

As far as I know, ASIST was still invented by a human, without any assistance by immortal elves or great dragons.

And, the immortal elves and great dragons are similar to a really powerful NPC in any GM's campaign. It's more of a plot device to move the setting forward rather than a serious character in the world.

Such NPCs are commonly seen as harming games and settings. See Forgotten Realms for references. Shadowrun is in the comfortable position to have dozens of entities to move the setting ahead - in the modern world, we do not need godlings to change the world.

[Mäx]

And the mentality that everythung can be killed is what separates Shadowrun from D&D. We don't have gods walking the earth.

Please tell me hat is there in D&D that PC can't kill.

Someone else in this thread stated it pretty damn near perfect. You only survive the machinations of the godlings because you're so worthless as to be beneath their notice or waste the micro-second it would take to erase you from existence. You survive the machinations of the megacorporations and governments because you're just that damn good. There's a huge difference between the two, both practically and psychologically.

No only reason that you survive the megacorps is the fact that you a little shadowrunner are not worth the effort to kill, if megacorps want you dead you die.

[Ol' Scratch]

Alright, just a check on the state of things right now. It seems that most of the complaints are with Harlequin and Dunkelzahn's death and Will. These seem to be the biggest ones. Am I right with this?

That was a major contributor, yes. So far SR4 has been doing it right and I have confidence that they'll stick to the route they're on. Especially since (despite the power-upping of recent sourcebooks) they're trying to keep things focused on a more street-level game.

[Fuchs]

Alright, just a check on the state of things right now. It seems that most of the complaints are with Harlequin and Dunkelzahn's death and Will. These seem to be the biggest ones. Am I right with this?

For me, the biggest problem is that, contrary to the other threats, the IEs and their metaplot are too wide-spread, touch too much stuff, are individually too powerful to the point of being DM pets, and most importantly are presented far too much as facts in sourcebooks, and not rumors and options.

[Ol' Scratch]

No only reason that you survive the megacorps is the fact that you a little shadowrunner are not worth the effort to kill, if megacorps want you dead you die.

Not necessarily, and especially not to the player character's mind. You can go escape a megacorp's goon squad, you can go into hiding and stay off the radar, and you can be forgotten. When facing immortal elves and dragons who hold grudges that last for eons and who can, with a blink of an eye, disintegrate you on the spot... the only reason you survive is because they will it so. As stated, there's a huge difference between the two, especially psychologically.

[Fuchs]

Please tell me hat is there in D&D that PC can't kill.

Ao. No stats, no way to kill it.

Guess what has no stats in Shadowrun? Right in one, IEs.

[the_real_elwood]

Since there's nothing in Shadowrun that you can't kill, so your players could always go after one of the Great Dragons. That was the thing with D&D, any monster or NPC that had stats, someone would make a character or party that was capable of killing it, no matter how high powered the stats were. So go ahead and run a game where your players assassinate Great Dragons or Immortal Elves.

[the_real_elwood]

Ao. No stats, no way to kill it.

Guess what has no stats in Shadowrun? Right in one, IEs.

I just assumed that IE's have the same stats as regular elves, they just don't die of natural causes. So of course, the ones that live to be 4,000 years old are going to have acquired a hell of a lot of Karma and are going to have some wicked skills, but that just means anyone who wants to kill one needs a bigger gun.

[Fuchs]

Not necessarily, and especially not to the player character's mind. You can go escape a megacorp's goon squad, you can go into hiding and stay off the radar, and you can be forgotten. When facing immortal elves and dragons who hold grudges that last for eons and who can, with a blink of an eye, disintegrate you on the spot... the only reason you survive is because they will it so. As stated, there's a huge difference between the two, especially psychologically.

And it's just not fun for many to be faced with DM pets and mary sues. The corps are huge, and almost all-powerful, but they are made up of countless individual people and machines and locations. That's a far cry from meeting gods.

[Mäx]

Not necessarily, and especially not to the player character's mind. You can go escape a megacorp's goon squad, you can go into hiding and stay off the radar, and you can be forgotten. When facing immortal elves and dragons who hold grudges that last for eons and who can, with a blink of an eye, disintegrate you on the spot... the only reason you survive is because they will it so. As stated, there's a huge difference between the two, especially psychologically.

Any runner who thinks that the only reason she's still alive isn't the fact that for the megacorps it mostly isn't worth the trouple to have you killed, is deluding herself.