What do your players get for their burned edge? Options

[sunnyside]

The biggest question I have is if a single burned edge gets them out of the situation or just that shot.

The books example has the player falling into a coma but being able to live to fight another day. However without some extra hand waving getting knocked out often just delays a characters demise by a few turns. Does the edge buy that hand wave? What about situations where they're already trapped by the bad guy and are scheduled for execution shortly and they want out?

[deek]

Nuthin'... as I don't allow it. My hand waves plenty as it is, so I don't need a player attaching a marionette string to it as well.

[JudgementLoaf]

Its highly situational, but they usually a get out of jail free card for that one instant. The gunshot dosen't kill them, they survive the bomb blast, whatever. But, its only that one moment, and they still have to figure out a way out from there.

[Muspellsheimr]

Judgement, may I then ask why you would burn an Edge to survive, when you could instead burn an Edge for a critical success?

The text does not say you may burn an Edge to survive that attack, it says you may burn an Edge to survive. In other words, regardless of what happens, you some how make it out of the situation alive.

[sunnyside]

The text does not say you may burn an Edge to survive that attack, it says you may burn an Edge to survive. In other words, regardless of what happens, you some how make it out of the situation alive.

It's an issue of scope. I presume edge doesn't give the player an invulnerability bubble for the rest of the session in your games. So at some point you have to define where the "situation" they paid to get out of is over. And you also have to decide if there are any situations you won't let them buy their way out of.

I suppose for the former point it works well with the "coma" thing as the player is out of action for probably the rest of the session.

[Tarantula]

The character somehow drops "off camera" but lives through it. Player is basically out until a new scene. Burn edge during big boss fight? Fine, you're not gonna be helping at all for the rest of it.

[Wesley Street]

Depends on the situation. If a PC falls or bleeds out in combat and he wants to burn an Edge point, most likely he'll regain consciousness floating in Puget Sound, stripped naked and saddled with the Infirm quality from wounds and lack of oxygen to the brain.

[Stahlseele]

Boom goes the Bomb, you spend edge to survive the Bombs Blast
Rumble goes the Building, going down, squashing you like a bug

[BullZeye]

The only time a player has burned a point of edge changed his faith from being dead into hospitalized and his friends had to help him out of hospital. The group rarely uses any "advanced" rules like aiming or calling a shot anyway, thus burning the edge was used only once. I'm the only one who has read the rules during 40+ sessions we have played SR... I did try to explain most rules so many times already but somehow the more advanced stuff doesn't stick.

[sunnyside]

Judgement, may I then ask why you would burn an Edge to survive, when you could instead burn an Edge for a critical success?

Actually what does it mean to have scored a critical success on, say, a damage resistance test (such as against a bomb). Does the damage get reduced to zero?

If so I guess I could see the "buy a critical success" option as a player wanting to push on, while the burning to survive is the players way of tapping out.

Though that interpritation means the PC is essentially immortal.

[Muspellsheimr]

Boom goes the Bomb, you spend edge to survive the Bombs Blast
Rumble goes the Building, going down, squashing you like a bug

That is burning Edge for a critical success on your damage resistance, not burning Edge to survive.

You burn for a critical success, you escape that attack (or other form of damage) somehow unscathed.
You burn for survival, & you make it out of the situation.

The result varies depending on circumstances, but I would suggest as a guideline, if the player burns to survive, they remain alive until they have recovered enough to act on their own, however long that takes.

Actually what does it mean to have scored a critical success on, say, a damage resistance test (such as against a bomb). Does the damage get reduced to zero?

If so I guess I could see the "buy a critical success" option as a player wanting to push on, while the burning to survive is the players way of tapping out.

Though that interpritation means the PC is essentially immortal.

A critical success is defined as 4 or more Hits than you need to succeed at a test. Burning for a critical success on a resistance test would then effectively give you DV + 4 Hits; reason being, anything up to the DV is not in excess of what you need - it all goes towards reducing the damage. Once damage is fully resisted, then excess hits go towards determining a critical success.

And there are ways for players to still die, it is just difficult if the player wants their character to live. Also note that living does not necessarily mean continuing on with the group. I have had characters that, even though they survived (& thanks to genetech, where in perfect health), I still had to replace with a new character for various reasons.

Shadowrun is a game of glass cannons - it is easy to die. The game has no mechanic for resurrecting dead characters. It is not fun to have your character killed, with no way of reversing it, in a game that is very easy to die in. For this reason, it is very important for the characters to have some way of returning to the game - that is Edge.

[DTFarstar]

I was under the impression that critical successes were for opposed tests? Isn't the text something like 4 net successes? You don't have net successes on a damage resistance test.

Chris

[Tarantula]

Boom goes the Bomb, you spend edge to survive the Bombs Blast
Rumble goes the Building, going down, squashing you like a bug

That is burning Edge for a critical success on your damage resistance, not burning Edge to survive.

You burn for a critical success, you escape that attack (or other form of damage) somehow unscathed.
You burn for survival, & you make it out of the situation.

I agree. Burn for a critical success, you survive the bomb, building squishes you.

Burn to survive, bomb blast throws you out of the building, and into a passing garbage truck, at 1 box from being incapacitated and you're out of the scene.

[Cain]

I was under the impression that critical successes were for opposed tests? Isn't the text something like 4 net successes? You don't have net successes on a damage resistance test.

Actually, yes you can. If you have a DV of 12, you need 12 successes to soak it fully. So, if you burn Edge, you just scored 16 successes, 4 above what you needed.

The problem is with opposed tests. Depending on the situation, it can range from useless to overpowering. For example, burning Edge to try and kill someone with a basic light pistol (DV 4) is pointless; you'd hit him with 4 successes above whatever he rolled, but that only translates to a modified DV of 8. That's not enough to kill anyone, even assuming he completely botches his soak roll.

OTOH, burning Edge when summoning a spirit can get ugly. You're guaranteed at least 4 services out of a force 12+ spirit that way. You can do the same trick when binding said spirit; but in both cases, make sure you've got Edge to burn on your soak roll. You may need it.

I agree. Burn for a critical success, you survive the bomb, building squishes you.

Burn to survive, bomb blast throws you out of the building, and into a passing garbage truck, at 1 box from being incapacitated and you're out of the scene.

I agree as well, with the slight caveat that I may invoke a heroic sacrifice house rule. If you burn Edge to defend against something that's normally not survivable (e.g., a Thor shot to the forehead), your character still dies, but the player gets to keep all his earned karma towards his next character. The same thing applies if the character dies in an especially cinematic manner.

[Muspellsheimr]

The problem is with opposed tests. Depending on the situation, it can range from useless to overpowering. For example, burning Edge to try and kill someone with a basic light pistol (DV 4) is pointless; you'd hit him with 4 successes above whatever he rolled, but that only translates to a modified DV of 8. That's not enough to kill anyone, even assuming he completely botches his soak roll.

Or to be completely absurd, take an Agility 1, Edge 1, 0 skill character, give them an assault rifle with no recoil comp. Called Shot - 4, Called Shot - Bypass Armor, Long Narrow Burst. Edge for a Long Shot test, burn for a critical success. Your opponent now gets Body to resist 19P, from someone who literally cannot hit shit.

Yes, this does work, but is retarded, & unrelated to the topic of this thread.

By the way, have I mentioned that squirrels are the source of all evil?

[Muspellsheimr]

I agree as well, with the slight caveat that I may invoke a heroic sacrifice house rule. If you burn Edge to defend against something that's normally not survivable (e.g., a Thor shot to the forehead), your character still dies, but the player gets to keep all his earned karma towards his next character. The same thing applies if the character dies in an especially cinematic manner.

In the case of said Thor shot, I would suggest instead having something just happen to move in to block it, resulting in NPC deaths (or, if you are feeling malicious, a TPK minus the player who would have otherwise been the only death).

[Stahlseele]

Or to be completely absurd, take an Agility 1, Edge 1, 0 skill character, give them an assault rifle with no recoil comp. Called Shot - 4, Called Shot - Bypass Armor, Long Narrow Burst. Edge for a Long Shot test, burn for a critical success. Your opponent now gets Body to resist 19P, from someone who literally cannot hit shit.

Yes, this does work, but is retarded, & unrelated to the topic of this thread.

By the way, have I mentioned that squirrels are the source of all evil?

i thought for such things there was the longshot rule . . can'T you only burn edge for a crit hit if you have positive dice left?

as for the squirrels: no, care to enlighten/amuse us? ^^

In the case of said Thor shot, I would suggest instead having something just happen to move in to block it, resulting in NPC deaths (or, if you are feeling malicious, a TPK minus the player who would have otherwise been the only death).

i'd probably say that because he burned edge, whoever rolled to hit him critically botched his roll and thus missed . .

[Kurious]

For my group:

A sniper hits you for a total of 25 damage... you have no armor and 4 body.

You burn an edge to survive the attack.

You just happened to look the right way, and the bullet passes between the halves of your brain (or through the meat of your chest rather then your heart or lungs)... you are reduced to zero life, you are unconscious, but you survived the attack.

[Muspellsheimr]

i'd probably say that because he burned edge, whoever rolled to hit him critically botched his roll and thus missed . .

. . hitting the rest of the party, along with a school bus full of elementary students.



& yes, I mentioned using the Long Shot rules in my above ridiculous example. Note, using Edge reduces your current Edge Pool. Burning Edge reduces your Edge attribute, but otherwise does not affect your Edge Pool (unless that was also at maximum) - meaning an Edge 1 character can both use & burn Edge. Long Shot always gives you a positive dice pool, regardless of how many penalties you stack on, so it always enables you to burn for a critical success.

[Stahlseele]

wasn't there something about edge only being useable once per test?
so you can't use edge to be able to do the test and then burn edge to critically success?

ok i must have overread the longshot part in your example.
as for the other part?
nah, if i wanna survive due to sheer luck, then why should the rest of the party have to burn edge to do the same?
a dickish GM could go to town with that . . i burn edge to survive, ok, the thor hits 2 others of your party of 5 . . they roll edge to survive and the thor hits another 2 of the party of 5 . . now those second two also roll edge and the thor hits the first guy and another guy again who have to roll edge again . . and so on and so on O.o

[Muspellsheimr]

Using Edge is different from Burning Edge. You may only use Edge once per test. There is no limit to burning Edge, except your Edge attribute.

Also, the near-TPK result of burning Edge is viable, but I would likely set a GM who did that on fire. It is good to play with fire. It is good to play with sharp metallic objects.. Blood tastes good...

Knowledge is power.
Power corrupts.
Study hard.
Be Evil.

[Stahlseele]

so there's nothing preventing USE and BURN in ONE test?

[Muspellsheimr]

Not by RAW.

[Stahlseele]

i suddenly understand the whole Mr.Lucky Concept a whole lot better right now . .

[Cain]

wasn't there something about edge only being useable once per test?
so you can't use edge to be able to do the test and then burn edge to critically success?

ok i must have overread the longshot part in your example.
as for the other part?
nah, if i wanna survive due to sheer luck, then why should the rest of the party have to burn edge to do the same?
a dickish GM could go to town with that . . i burn edge to survive, ok, the thor hits 2 others of your party of 5 . . they roll edge to survive and the thor hits another 2 of the party of 5 . . now those second two also roll edge and the thor hits the first guy and another guy again who have to roll edge again . . and so on and so on O.o

You can only *spend* 1 point of Edge per test. You can *burn* all you like.

As to the second, the point is that burning Edge is essentially, as written, a "Get Out of Jail, Free" card. They're guaranteed to live to fight another day. (In fact, that may be the exact wording; I'll check later.)