Critiquing Characters, Am I missing something? Options

[Carriage]

Ive seen a couple of character critiquing topics recently and was wondering why it matters. RPGs are not really adversarial games compared to something like a tabletop wargame. Shouldn't the GM be trying to get the game balance right for his gaming group or is it more a thing of getting the PCs skills balanced?

When I actually get around to running games, it doesn't really matter how fine tuned my PCs characters are. Things that change the nature of the game such as everyone with rockets is a different issue. Also, getting characters correct is another thing.

Carriage

[TheOOB]

I kind of understand what your going for here, what ultimately matters is that you have a character that you have fun playing, but there are a few things to note.

First, there are some basic things about the game that your character has to have in order to be at all effective, for example without the perception skill you will get surprised, and because the surprise rules are so deadly you usually end up dead if you are surprised. Another example is that, as a general rule, combat oriented characters need at least two IPs, preferably three. Oftentimes(especially with new players) you will either a)miss or b)not understand the importance of these things which will make a character that is fundamentally unable to fulfill their role, and being joe the incompetent guy isn't fun, in fact it's bad role play. Incompetent people don't become shadowrunners, and if they do they die quickly.

Second is that some people like playing powerful characters, hell you owe it to your team to be reasonably powerful. While it is true that you are supposed to be successful, most good GMs won't always make it a sure thing, and most players I know want to be successful in their runs, and powerful well designed characters do that more often.

Third, simply having a second(or third or more) set of eyes look at a character will pick up things you miss. Whether you build a combat mage without a physical combat spell, a rigger without a command program, or an adept who really doesn't understand that improved attribute really isn't all that wiz, someone else looking over your character will help you fix any mistakes and maybe help you build your character into something you will enjoy more.

That said, you should take all critique with a grain of salt. If I want to play the dwarf double knife adept, I don't care there there are a million builds that are better. Sure I want to be the best double knife adept I can, but I don't want to compromise my characters core concept just for the sake of power.

[Glyph]

It's easy to miss things when you are new to the game - redundant skills, rules that you forgot (Essense loss reducing Magic, etc.), and things that simply don't work in the game. Both of the threads that I think you're referring to are from players relatively new to the game.

Having a fun backstory is vital, but you also need to show some deference to the rules and the setting. You need a character built by the rules, capable of functioning in the setting (seasoned professional criminal in a grim, slightly dystopian future). And the nuts and bolts are an important component of the game. They determine whether your character succeeds or fails. If your character concept is, say, a tough as nails bounty hunter, and your stats don't back it up, then you will get in a bar fight and get beat up by the bar maid. And instead of roleplaying your bounty hunter, you will be depressed because the character as you envisioned him is not the character that you have wound up actually playing.

Character creation does take more forethought than in systems like D&D, where you pick race and class, then roll for your stats. Shadowrun is an open build character creation system. It lets you create incredibly customized characters, but it also makes it easy to miss vital skills, neglect some areas too much, spread your skills too thin, and so on.

[Carriage]

Just so you guys know, I'm relatively new to SR4. Had the rules and a group for a while, but struggling to actually write a decent run and actually learning all the rules has caused slow going (got a game tonight though, woo! Not using hacking/'mancer or magic atm though.). We're all fairly inexperienced with RPGs in general too.

I do get what you guys mean with the perception and other important things. We missed that first time through. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

So its more a case of, "person experienced with the system, proofread my character please" than, "fine tune my mega ultra hyperdude"?

[Fuchs]

It's a way to broaden your scope, for me. See what combos other people come up with, and what they consider essential for a character. You're not forced to follow such advice, but it helps.

And, given how far the range of possible options widened with the last few splatbooks, it's also a good way to find out about that piece of gear or other character option you missed when reading the latest book.

[TheOOB]

To take an example of why character critique is useful, look at a lot of new player builds and look at how many of them don't have the perception skill. Now experienced players know that shadowrun has very deadly surprise rules(attacks as a success test, ouch) and that someone whop surprises someone else usually wins the fight, even if they aren't quite as well armed. Not to mention that perception is great for noticing things like cameras, traps, or any manner of things. It even makes sense for role play, shadowrunners by necessity need to be aware of their surrondings, alert to every opportunity and prepared for every problem.

So by having your character critiqued, an experienced player can explain to you just how useful the perception skill, and how it's dangerous for you not to have it, and how it really doesn't even make a great deal of sense to not have the skill when you are running the shadows. Shadowrun is a complex game system and there are many truths to it that may not be apparent just from reading the rules.

[ElFenrir]

I'm an experienced player at around 14 years of Shadowrun(started around SR2), and even i like having other sets of eyes on my character. There are some rules I don't know perfect in SR4. For example, in SR4, I'm not too in the knowhow of making a Technomancer or Hacker type, and I would want some help with that. Or, hell. Recently I had used the Karmagen system to build a balance combat mage(you can, in that system, without making the Body 4/Str 3 Ork.) Turns out I forgot any sort of stealth skills or spells. I usually don't-but I didn't this time, and I guess because my brain is so used to me putting them there, it just didn't register when I forgot it. But, DS to the rescue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Otherwise, yeah...everything these guys said. Also, sometimes it IS nice for building an ''uberdude'', too...those days where your GM tells you ''ok. Make this, and make your guys powerful, I'm feeling mean tonight.'' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Crusher Bob]

In the ideal case, meta-game tokens (e.g. character creation points) should buy equal amounts of character utility no matter how they are expended. For example, a character who spends 100 CP on combat stuff should be just as generally capable in combat as any other character who spent 100 CP on combat stuff.

Alas, this is never the case. A player good at the character creation system who wants to make 'an awesome character' can quite often expend his CP in such a way that his character is more capable for less meta-game tokens.

So character critiques are both a check for verisimilitude (why exactly does your socialite have mad gun skills and the psychological fortitude to shoot people right in the face, again?) and an examination of how 'wisely' you have expended your meta-game tokens.

If we assume that all players will expend their tokens with equal levels of 'wisdom' (is there a better term for this?), then it's not really a problem. But players usually have different skill levels at operating the character generation and advancement sub-system of the game.

[Carriage]

I noticed last night a BIG difference between one of my players custom pistol guy with a DP of about 16 and my other player's weapon specialist pregen with about 8.

[Glyph]

The pregenerated characters vary a lot in quality. Some are okay, and some are very poorly constructed. The weapons specialist is one of the latter.

That said, it's kind of an apples and oranges comparison. The weapons specialist, despite the name, is not really a specialist at using weapons, but more of a weapons tinkerer. She can use a wide variety of weapons, but her main focus is repairing and tweaking them.

[Carriage]

To derail my own thread, I've got a question about resolving combat correctly.

If the defender is unaware, are they effectively resisting the base DV, plus hits on the attack roll? Also, do you use the DV+hits when comparing to armour for stun/physical? One of my players took 2 short bursts to the back and it nearly killed him. Does this sound right?

[toturi]

To derail my own thread, I've got a question about resolving combat correctly.

If the defender is unaware, are they effectively resisting the base DV, plus hits on the attack roll? Also, do you use the DV+hits when comparing to armour for stun/physical? One of my players took 2 short bursts to the back and it nearly killed him. Does this sound right?

It is possible to produce such a result with a low powered weapon with low dice pool. Usually a Equal level combat oriented NPC should be able to kill a PC if the PC is surprised.

[Carriage]

A single triad member from the basic rules fired 2 short bursts with a machine pistol into his back at short range. He had a lined coat and i think body 4.

This would be, 4P+net hits (DP of 8-2=6) +2 for short bursts resisted by a DP of 10 dice(6+4).

Is this all correct?

[Ryu]

A single triad member from the basic rules fired 2 short bursts with a machine pistol into his back at short range. He had a lined coat and i think body 4.

This would be, 4P+net hits (DP of 8-2=6) +2 for short bursts resisted by a DP of 10 dice(6+4).

Is this all correct?

About so, yes.

[Carriage]

Why only about? Assuming I've added stats up correctly.

[Ryu]

You have added all numbers you gave nicely (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So assuming your -2 is correct, you are good. If those -2 come from recoil, and both salvos were fired in the same IP, that is not the case. (-2/-5)