Postcyberpunk, This it covers things well. Options

[Wesley Street]

Who said the elves left the Tir? It's just the Immortal Elf Princes who are gone. Supposedly. For whatever reason that has yet to be disclosed.

Pointing to the real-life rise of nations only works when your setting strives to be 100% realistic or a historical-based fiction. I don't find the powerful and rapid rise of groups who said, "Give us our lands back or we'll blow up your European asses with magic" to be all that unbelievable within the context of the story. Nor the idea that a mystical-mythical beast would win the Presidency, considering that all other candidates from the past to the setting's present seemed like a bunch of schmucks to the populace by comparison. Nor the rapid dispersal of wireless technology. Or the technomancer panics which died down when the A.I.s appeared who were then marketed by the megacorps as being friendly.

If this argument doesn't sway, think about how little life changed during the Agricultural Revolution. But once the Industrial Revolution and the Information Age hit, society spiraled into rapid-fire changes every few decades, years or months.

Society rarely coasts for long, it only accelerates.

[Nath]

Besides, Israel is still here via blood, sweat and tears. Tir is still there...umm...because all the non-elves decided to just leave...or something?

... because they picked Oregon. Who would want it else ? T'was their second choice after Rhode Island though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

[sunnyside]

Where-as I find the idea of NAN, the Tirs, a Dragon actually winning a national election, Free SINs for all after Crash 2.0, Technos going from hated "X-Men" to fairly accepted in the span of a year, ect, FAR more silly than the idea that some corp middleman would want to use company resources to destroy some artwork that offended him.

At the time only they had magic on that level. I mean they were causing effects with devestation on the order of magnetude of nuclear weaponry. Spirits materializing inside of tanks. I can see the UCAS having to give up land.

It would be an interesting plot if a new war broke out in the future now that everybody has magic to some degree.

[Trax]

At the time only they had magic on that level. I mean they were causing effects with devestation on the order of magnetude of nuclear weaponry. Spirits materializing inside of tanks. I can see the UCAS having to give up land.

It would be an interesting plot if a new war broke out in the future now that everybody has magic to some degree.

Not to mention that they couldn't even use nukes as a weapon against magic because apparently they've all suddenly stopped working or go off but at a much weaker yield.

[Ravor]

On par with nuclear weapons? Even IF I bought that you are still talking about a tiny minority of Mages amongst a tiny minority of Indians and one half-horror against the American military, sorry I still find the NAN far more silly than a corper using company resources to destroy some art that offended him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


I think the fact that the Tirs are nothing like Israel has already been pointed out.

The fact that someone at FASA (Or was it Fanpro at the time? I can never remember.) had the stupid idea of letting a reader survey decide the president of the UCAS just before having him off himself in order to save the universe doesn't make it any less silly.

As for the free SINs, since when did the powers that be care about the status quo for people without cred?

Uh-huh, Dunkie 2.0 was able to make people totally forget that one of it's siblings was threatening to use Big A's bioweapons to destroy major cities, nevermind the fact that a few short months beforehand people were actively hunting Technos to the point that Deckers with implanted 'links were getting caught in the crossfire.

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't mind the formation of the NAN. I could almost see it happening if these events occured as described, especially with the fear of such powerful magic. But what I have trouble with is how the UCAS never bothered to even try to reclaim their land once the threat of magic was greatly lessened (namely by having their own cadres of magicians). The other part that totally ruins the plausibility of it is that similar events took place nearly the world rounds, and all in a very short amount of time. And just... ugh.

There's a lot of other ways it could have gone down that would have been more plausible, more believable, and more interesting. Just wish they would have done any number of them than the rather transparent "we just liked the idea of Amerind Shaman returning with magic." Which is pretty much the only solid explanation for what we got. Which is fine in and of itself. But damn.

[sunnyside]

On par with nuclear weapons? Even IF I bought that you are still talking about a tiny minority of Mages amongst a tiny minority of Indians and one half-horror against the American military,

The didn't know anything about that. For all they knew some guy in a shack somewhere was causing everything.

As for nukes they could have used them, but on what? I don't believe they knew where the great ghost dance was or that there even was such a thing going on. So they wouldn't have had a great target.


Nukes aren't a very good battlefield weapon without good targets. By that I mean they'll wipe out a city. But blowing ten kilometer holes in the forest when you don't have a target just wrecks your country.

Of course now the NAN nations have their own cities they wouldn't like to lose, and if they tried another ghost dance scounting elementals would probably find it and a warded surprise could be sent by the UCAS.

[Lionhearted]

warded tactical nukes.. I like the sound of that

[Ravor]

Who said anything about using nukes on North American soil? All I said was I don't buy the argument that The Great Ghost Dance was on par with nuclear weapons.

[Nath]

Who said anything about using nukes on North American soil? All I said was I don't buy the argument that The Great Ghost Dance was on par with nuclear weapons.

In my game, the SAIM threatened triggering an eruption of the Yellowstone Caldera like they did for smaller volcanoes. If not on par, that would be at least a bogey. Of course, at the time Shadowrun timeline was written, few people knew about the Caldera.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Back to the topic instead of Metaplot bashing...

There is one major element that those articles are forgetting about when discussing Postcyberpunk...
When comparing Cyberpunk to Postcyberpunk, one has to look at the influences that come from society and how they influence the works created. Cyberpunk was about the fear of rampant technology as people have described, but also and more importantly tied to the social revolutions of the 70's and early 80's. The punk revolution from which cyberpunk draws its name was birthed of hundreds of thousands rebelling against the machine and living with a nihilistic, "screw you!" attitude. Too bad, this cultural revolution was not a revolution at all, and just a counterculture that was more than dead by the mid 80s.

Authors can't write books that will be well received by audiences if they can't relate to the characters. When Gibson wrote his sprawl trilogy, he was appealing to the spirit of the times and the culture and they were well received. Had he tried that only 5 years later than he had, people probably would have had a largely different opinion. With the death of the punk revolution (or at least with the commercial packaging and branding of the punk revival movement that killed any and all similarity it had to the original movement), people became docile and super commercial wage slave happy fat 80s new wave gunk. If one writes a story about life on the edge to a consumer who can't comprehend this lifestyle that was popular only a few years ago, their book loses an audience because the readers can't relate to the characters. It's too gritty and dark for the readers' tastes.

That's why we have postcyberpunk now. The characters are normal or at least hold close to middle class positions in society. They fight against injustice much like the ideal we would like to live by as a crusader of good. There isn't a "screw you" life on the edge mentality like in the original cyberpunk works and the characters aren't usually committing crimes for profit or survival. It's not a theme that's written into our society.

While in original cyberpunk there was a theme of alienation and lack of humanity from technology, in postcyberpunk, we have themes of the next step in human evolution do the evolution of man into the digital realm. Again, a reflection of the times as at the turn of the 70's into the 80's, we had rampant changes in technology (the CD and digital audio/video was birthed of this time frame) and it scared the masses. Look at today's society where most of us welcome the next major leap forward. With initial leap inot the information age and our exponential increase in technology over the last 15 years, we are more prepared for anything the world will throw at us. And if we don't, the corporations will market it at us so we that we will love it. In fact, we'll love it so much that we'll immerse ourselves in media 24/7 to completely numb ourselves to the point we won't know how much the corporate man is robbing us blind...

Like I've mentioned in another thread, the reason I find postcyberpunk so drab and lame compared to the original cyberpunk is that we have no counterculture in our society that is fighting for a cause similar to the original punk movement did. I really feel the entire cyberpunk (including post) genre is dying a horrible death and won't be revitalized until we have a counterculture that is as abrasive and vocal as the punk revolution was to drive new literature about life on the edge and sticking it to plastic commercial society.

[Wesley Street]

Who said anything about using nukes on North American soil? All I said was I don't buy the argument that The Great Ghost Dance was on par with nuclear weapons.

Nukes can't accurately and selectively cause five mountain tops to explode into active volcanoes simultaneously along with interfering with the operations of specific military targets. Which the Great Ghost Dance did. It's never been stated if any other group on the planet has had the ability to create that much of a mana uprising in one go. And after 2008 or so projectile atomic weaponry became unreliable for "some unexplained reason, of which there are a million and one theories" (BBB). The UCAS theoretically could have had military mage brigades put together once everything assorted with the Awakening was sorted out but by that time there were some Great Dragons squatting on American soil who probably wouldn't have appreciated us petty humans messing with their new status quo.

The New Revolution attempted (and failed) in 2064 to reunite the original US of A (Threats 2, BBB).

[Nath]

Like I've mentioned in another thread, the reason I find postcyberpunk so drab and lame compared to the original cyberpunk is that we have no counterculture in our society that is fighting for a cause similar to the original punk movement did. I really feel the entire cyberpunk (including post) genre is dying a horrible death and won't be revitalized until we have a counterculture that is as abrasive and vocal as the punk revolution was to drive new literature about life on the edge and sticking it to plastic commercial society.

In these days and age, any form of counterculture get bought out, covered, packaged and sold long before doing any harm. Consumerism (which more adequately refers our society than "capitalism") is very efficient at suppressing such threat. The same probably goes for any kind of revolution. Subversive elements at the sources of new countercultures should remain, so to speak, "moving target", moving on to their next thing as soon, if not before, what they created reach the mainstream.

[Wesley Street]

Like I've mentioned in another thread, the reason I find postcyberpunk so drab and lame compared to the original cyberpunk is that we have no counterculture in our society that is fighting for a cause similar to the original punk movement did. I really feel the entire cyberpunk (including post) genre is dying a horrible death and won't be revitalized until we have a counterculture that is as abrasive and vocal as the punk revolution was to drive new literature about life on the edge and sticking it to plastic commercial society.

There are countercultures in society. They operate quietly from within The Machine rather than spitting in faces and screaming about bringing down the rich. The original punk movement took the largely ineffectual 60s and early 70s vocal protest attitude and injected it with methamphetamine. However, most people can only tolerate being bellowed at for so long before they start to either become desensitized or so weary of the medium that the message becomes lost. Plastic commercial society can only be brought down by using its own weapons and tactics against it. Check out Douglass Rushkoff's Ecstasy Club or Grant Morrison's The Invisibles for excellent fictional examples. To paraphrase King Mob: "We want to make the entire world a party, one that even The Enemy would want to join."

[Ravor]

Exactly, all the Great Ghost Dance managed was to cause several existing volcanos (Along the West Coast if I remember correctly.) to erupt and spawned some freaky storms aimed at military supply lines. An impressive display of force but not enough to redraw map lines when it was the only advantage the Indians had. Remember that according to canon before the "war" started the Indians were subjected to death camps so an already tiny minority group should have gotten even smaller.

[sunnyside]

Exactly, all the Great Ghost Dance managed was to cause several existing volcanos (Along the West Coast if I remember correctly.) to erupt and spawned some freaky storms aimed at military supply lines. An impressive display of force but not enough to redraw map lines when it was the only advantage the Indians had. Remember that according to canon before the "war" started the Indians were subjected to death camps so an already tiny minority group should have gotten even smaller.

Um. You know of Hells Kitchen right? That's the part of the map they redrew. An it isn't like nukes take out a whole state or force a map redraw. I single nuke wont even take out a large town entirely. For example if a modern H-bomb hit downtown Seattle the surounding areas would still be mostly functional. It'd take about

[Ravor]

Once again, so what? I AGREE that nukes aren't really all that impressive by themselves, which is one of the reasons that The Great Ghost Dance is not the "I Win" button that the devs turned it into.

[Lionhearted]

Once again, so what? I AGREE that nukes aren't really all that impressive by themselves, which is one of the reasons that The Great Ghost Dance is not the "I Win" button that the devs turned it into.

Nukes is what the starwars program was designed to take out, before that they had all those other crazy ideas like mutually garanteed destruction.. The state know nukes.. they have tons and tons of them lying around, and they know what to do if someone arm one.. now a bunch of ruggish indians simultanously makes 4 volcanoes erupt and bring down their F-16 with freaking storms.. who know that else they got up their sleeve? I dont think the founding of NAN was as much a demonstration of force but rather an reaction in fear of the unknown, the real life inspiration of the ghost dance provoced so much fear from the neighbouring "Civilized men" that it went down in history as the massacre of wounded knee

[Ravor]

Sure, but in order for that to fly you have to assume that the Indians had access to cloning tanks, otherwise you might as well assume that Al'Quada could also bring the American government to its knees with a handful of planted nukes and the fear that they "might" have more.

The bottom line remains that the Indians simply did not have the numbers behind them in order to pull off what they did.

[Wesley Street]

As of the 1990 census, there were 1,937,391 registered Native American Indians in the United States. I'd assume it's over 2 million now. I don't have the Canada numbers in front of me. And those are just the ones that considered themselves members of specific tribes. Assuming that half of those AmerInds are of fighting age, that's still a significant number of people who could seriously fuck your shit up.

Plus, y'know, major magical mojo which is an I WIN button no matter how you play it.

[HappyDaze]

I'd assume it's over 2 million now. I don't have the Canada numbers in front of me. And those are just the ones that considered themselves members of specific tribes. Assuming that half of those AmerInds are of fighting age, that's still a significant number of people who could seriously fuck your shit up.

Now reduce this by 25% for VITAS and we get 1.5 million spread out over a vast area with little in the way of mil-tech and not much in the way of support.

Plus, y'know, major magical mojo which is an I WIN button no matter how you play it.

Durh... It's maGiKK, it maykes everythaNg OK. It wIns the fitz and foods the pepls and mayks it possible 4 <2 mil to accupy the big-aSS'd arEA. MaGiKK 4 win!!

Please, it's stupid plot convenience. If the whole of the NAN would have been the Dakota states, it might have been a bit more plausible.

[Wesley Street]

I don't have my copy in front of me but I believe that Shadows of North America stated that one of the great ironies of the US and Canadian Re-Education camps was that because the Indians were isolated from the major population centers they were spared VITAS. The Amerinds took the lands that were seceded to them by the Treaty of Denver but those lands aren't inhabited solely by Indians.

And you need supply lines, air support and other conventional military techniques when you can blow up mountains with a magical ritual... why? You'll forgive me if I have a hard time swallowing that one of the fundamental setting points of the Shadowrun universe is a "convenience."

[kzt]

I don't have my copy in front of me but I believe that Shadows of North America stated that one of the great ironies of the US and Canadian Re-Education camps was that because the Indians were isolated from the major population centers they were spared VITAS.

After all, everyone knows that huge poorly run prison camps with a high death rate are have always been exceptionally sanitary and managed by experts with degrees in Public Health. ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[HappyDaze]

And you need supply lines, air support and other conventional military techniques when you can blow up mountains with a magical ritual... why?

Supply lines being the big one, and communications being the second because you're trying to coordinate an effort of - as you say - 2,000,000 people. They need to feed and coordinate their efforts - there's no GGD astral BBS set up to coordinate all this shit.

You'll forgive me if I have a hard time swallowing that one of the fundamental setting points of the Shadowrun universe is a "convenience."

I could line you up for a barium swallow study if you'd like and we can just what your problem is, but my guess is it's linked to fanboy blindness. However, if you want a great example condensed setting-point crap, look no further than the entire timeline of events in the CFS.

[shuya]

In these days and age, any form of counterculture get bought out, covered, packaged and sold long before doing any harm. Consumerism (which more adequately refers our society than "capitalism") is very efficient at suppressing such threat. The same probably goes for any kind of revolution. Subversive elements at the sources of new countercultures should remain, so to speak, "moving target", moving on to their next thing as soon, if not before, what they created reach the mainstream.

while it's only very minorly mentioned, the whole idea of squatter "tribes" in the barrens banding together for survival, the Plastic Jungles, etc, stuff like that, are all concepts which are very much alive and well today. there is a very large population of street people, travellers, and communal societies that operates similarly and which are a very real part of the current counterculture (bleeding edge, chummer!). we aren't as well known, and we're often overlooked because of the less visible aspect of our "countering" of the contemporary culture, but there are many people who feel that the only effective protest against the current system is to abandon it. if the US economy goes to heck in a handbasket (not to bring current events into it or anything), people who have been living outside the mainstream of society as a form of protest against it may very well become more visible and prominent.

(i'm a member of an anarchosyndicalist community that attracts a lot of street people, train riders, rainbow family members, and others of that sort, for what it's worth)