Killing your contacts, Effects on street cred et al. Options

[BishopMcQ]

Often times in my games, characters can make new contacts and earn them as permanent contacts through runs, favors etc. What happens though when the runner kills one of his contacts?

Scenario: A runner gets called by a contact (Corp R&D) who needs help. His 11 year old daughter has been kidnapped and is being held as an insurance policy to make sure that he is a willing extraction. The runners track down the other team that has taken the girl and get her back. When they tell her that everything is okay now and they are taking her home to her father, she breaks down in tears. A brief mind probe later, they find out that daddy has been abusing her for several years.

The runners call the contact and say they were successful. At the meet, instead of handing over the girl, they shoot him in the head. The runners then call mom and hand over the girl.

As it stands, the runners don't have any proof of the abuse and it's just their word versus the dead guy. At the moment, several contacts who have lower loyalty ratings are acting nervous and some of the higher loyalties are asking around to get the big picture.

Thoughts and feedback?

[Captain K]

Whew, that's a doozy.


As far as the rules go, you could give each of the characters a point of Notoriety. This might frustrate your players, but if the rest of their contacts have no clue (or simply don't believe) that the characters felt like they were exacting justice on this corporate father then it's probably an appropriate way to handle it.

On the other hand, some people would likely be invigorated to hear about this kind of vigilante justice, so their Loyalty rating might increase.


You probably need to handle it differently for each contact involved.

[Cantankerous]

Whew, that's a doozy.


As far as the rules go, you could give each of the characters a point of Notoriety. This might frustrate your players, but if the rest of their contacts have no clue (or simply don't believe) that the characters felt like they were exacting justice on this corporate father then it's probably an appropriate way to handle it.

On the other hand, some people would likely be invigorated to hear about this kind of vigilante justice, so their Loyalty rating might increase.


You probably need to handle it differently for each contact involved.

I think that's just about right. Most of the characters contacts are going to be exceedingly nervous, but there are usually a few... Handle it case by case. If the contact is solid they may well believe the Runners, but even belief is no guarantee that the contact STILL won't be nervous afterward. They too may have things to hide, even if of highly different natures, that they may well get nervous about the Runner taking exception to. So, whether they see what the Runners did as acceptable or not, because of the circumstances, they could STILL be nervous about them.


Isshia

[Fortune]

Unless the characters shot their mouths off about what they had done, how would anyone (including their contacts) know about it?

[Wasabi]

I like the roleplay generated by it but just for the record I think something totally cleanly handled should have zero repercussions. Its a personal pet peeve of mine when GM's handwave that something is discovered. If players cover every angle and get away clean, they should get away clean. I know your situation doesn't leave them clean.

But for the roleplay if there IS a leak the roleplay of 'handling' the other contacts has a lot of potential. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In your case I think you've handled it well. Just give them a shot at stabilizing things since they are the (finger quotes) 'heroes'.

[Gast]

Aside from the connection thing, which I think you handled fine, you could give the players a chance to discover that the abuse was just implanted into the girl's memory so that guy gets geeked by the characters. They'd hate that twist ^^

[MK Ultra]

Mom might talk, daughter might talk, contacts of the R&D guy who might have heard daddy´s side of the story before he was killed might talk, too. Still it´s basically up to the GM to decide, if and when word gets out, even while the PCs are tight-liped. IMHO the Notoriety Rating is a good simple mechanic to reflect stuff like this, even though the rule has some flaws.

[Cantankerous]

Unless the characters shot their mouths off about what they had done, how would anyone (including their contacts) know about it?

I imagine that the Shadow community has to be pretty damned tight for "street cred" to have any value at all period. They sure aren't shooting their mouths off after successful runs, unless they want their sorry butts erased, so I think it can't take much for the Grapevine to pick up rumors and those rumors get listened too. How often have runs been started by someone smearing a Runners rep, or by their rep going through the roof for a successful action, how many scenarios mention the Runners being "nova hot"? Nah, street cred and contact loyalty should be things that change with the wind and tide. if you assume that what they do that is wrong or questionable or unpopular is going to keep hidden, why is it that their triumphs (which a smart Runner does want to ever admit to directly) give them positive rep?


Isshia

[hermit]

Often times in my games, characters can make new contacts and earn them as permanent contacts through runs, favors etc. What happens though when the runner kills one of his contacts?

Scenario: A runner gets called by a contact (Corp R&D) who needs help. His 11 year old daughter has been kidnapped and is being held as an insurance policy to make sure that he is a willing extraction. The runners track down the other team that has taken the girl and get her back. When they tell her that everything is okay now and they are taking her home to her father, she breaks down in tears. A brief mind probe later, they find out that daddy has been abusing her for several years.

The runners call the contact and say they were successful. At the meet, instead of handing over the girl, they shoot him in the head. The runners then call mom and hand over the girl.

Two Bad Rep points for offing a contact and two more for being stupid.

In the shadows, you deal with all sorts of mean people. Why not with abusive fathers? Do you know all your contacts vices? Should you play judge, jury and executioner? And if there, why not with your fixer who's into snuff beetles, or that yakuza soldier who regularily beats and rapes prostitutes into submission as part of his job at the Sunset Flower Bunraku (Touristville, 501 William Gates Boulevard)?

Whatever daddy does to his girl isn't the runners' business, it's as simple as that. Plus, if they would then find some sort of credible proof, they'd have an excellent handle on that contact; no more payment for his service, ever! Just remind him of that little vid of his daughter and the stash of med exam records that just might find it's way from your datachip to his employer, his wife, all his friends and Citizens United For Fair Trials (a popular lynch mob policlub many corpers hold in high regard) ...

Bottom line: If you live a life of crime and/or espionage, you might not want to act like a vigilante superhero, because, well, you aren't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wesley Street]

Just because your PCs run the streets, that doesn't mean they're obligated to act like amoral monsters. Even thieves have a code and child abusers/killers have a rough time in prison. Ignoring abuse, even when it can't be tangibly proven, is wrong.

I agree with Captain K. While it's a tricky one, I'd say one point of Notoriety for, technically, hacking off Mr. Johnson and/or failing the run. Loyalty ratings can be handled with other contacts depending on their moral standards.

[hermit]

Just because your PCs run the streets, that doesn't mean they're obligated to act like amoral monsters. Even thieves have a code and child abusers/killers have a rough time in prison. Ignoring abuse, even when it can't be tangibly proven, is wrong.

Then the shadows aren't for the likes of you - or you'll have to off pretty much all yakuza grunts, mob soldiers, and the likes, making for a short life as a runner. Not to mention that your street doc might be into organ legging ...

And they didn't just kill a Johnson, they killed a contact who called in a favour because they didn't like him. That's a disaster for your rep in the shadows community, at least in campaigns I run, where things aren't ereally clean. YMMV, as always.

[hyzmarca]

Personally, if I were the GM in that scenario, I'd make the girl a latent Technomancer or budding decker with a samurai code of ethics who creates a fictitious wealthy online persona and uses it to assemble a revenge-squad made up of reasonably powerful prime runners to kill the PCs. He may have been abusive, but he was her father, and honor demands that she prosecute a blood-feud against the PCs.


Bad Rep should be the least of their worries.

If you're wondering where the PCs went wrong, in my opinion, it is simple. Killing people is rarely a good solution to a problem, particularly a family dispute. Ideally, one wants to safely reuinte the family, with an emphasis on safe. If you have to remove the kid from the father's custody to prevent abuse, then so be it. But just killing him ain't going to help any more than that, and produces its own emotional peril for a kid who is torn between love and a desire not to be hurt, who could easily blame herself from the death of her parent. And, really, after the PCs brain-raped her to obtain the information, isn't that just the pot shooting the kettle black?

Supervised visitation and a good therapist would be the best solution in the Fifth World, but in the Sixth World it is so much easier to end abuse. Since you have a magician with mental manipulation spells, he probably has Influence. Influence is a permanent spell. So long as nothing happens to make him think that his actions, or inactions, might be wrong he will remain under the effects of the suggestion. A simple "don't abuse your daughter" suggestion could easily last for months or even years, unless he hangs out with people who tell him that he should abuse his daughter.
But magic isn't perfect in this regard. Technology is much more reliable. For the low-low cost of a dedicated chipjack and a Don't Abuse Your Daughter Personafix from the fine folks at the Do It Yourself Mail Order Court Ordered Mental Therapy Company and you have no worries at all, unless someone should perform major surgery on him to remove it. Linking it to a cortex bomb helps prevent this.
At the very least, they could have confronted him about it and worked out some sort of arrangement instead of killing him.

You see, this way the girl gets a non-abusive loving father instead of a cold maggoty corpse to hug. As it is, I imagine that she'll be more than a bit miffed about the brain-rape and the murder of one of her parents, even though she is probably glad that the abuse has ended.

Of course, she could always end up in an even more abusive situation instead, because of the PCs actions.

And, yes, Noteriety makes sense

[Wesley Street]

My view (and if shadowrunning were a realistic occupation) is that if a runner doesn't live by some sort of standard of decency, even a flexible one where innocents may become collateral damage, his lifespan is going to be that much shorter. All I know about crime is what I see on television and in the movies and what little of it I see in my day-to-day life. But even the gang-bangers on The Wire or the thugs on The Sopranos or the hitmen in any of dozens of good and horrible movies had lines that weren't crossed. Abusing kids was one of those lines and they usually took the law into their own hands with those who crossed it. Either because of some weird sense of morality or simply because certain patterns of behavior are bad for business or may draw the attention of law-enforcement.

It's screwy to say, yes, I'll deal drugs to kids but I won't let you fiddle one. But a smart criminal always has a line that won't be stepped over. When he does step over that line he becomes a complete sociopath, which makes him unpredictable. Which makes him "bad for business" and he can count the seconds remaining in his life on his fingers and toes.

But I agree, YMMV.

[HappyDaze]

All I know about crime is what I see on television and in the movies <...> Abusing kids was one of those lines and they usually took the law into their own hands with those who crossed it. Either because of some weird sense of morality

Your first statement explains your later idea of 'some weird sense of morality' - it's a TV thing that tries to make the bad guys sem more palatable to the viewers at home. I've worked corrections, and while some criminals do get persecuted by others, that's more because prisoners tend to break into cliques faster than anything. Outside of such confinement, such 'rules' don't really apply to many criminals.

[Rad]

...You see, this the girl gets a non-abusive loving father instead of a cold maggoty corpse to hug. As it is, I imagine that she'll be more than a bit miffed about the brain-rape and the murder of one of her parents, even though she is probably glad that the abuse has ended.

Of course, she could always end up in an even more abusive situation instead, because of the PCs actions.

And, yes, Noteriety makes sense

Yeah, that was my first thought--especially since it sounds like they shot him in front of the daughter during the hand-off. That's gonna' leave some scars.

I wouldn't be quite so harsh though, partly it depends on what kind/how severe of an abuse we're talking about. If he was molesting her, a lot of people are going to have a different view than if he just smacked her around once in a while. It also depends on the nature of their contacts and the circles they move in. Some runners really are the hooding type, and most have some kind of a line the don't like to cross. It makes sense that they would associate with people who more or less share their moral outlook, grey as it may be. On the other hand, if they're normally the sociopathic type and their contacts are equally shady, there's gonna' be some big repercussions from their little foray into righteousness.

As for word of the abuse getting out and mitigating the story of them killing a contact, if word of one can get around, it's reasonable to assume the other half of the story is making the rounds too--along with a few dozen variants. Maybe one person heard the kid shot her father with a gun she nabbed when the runner's weren't looking. Bad points for carelessness, but not as bad as geeking a Johnson rather than completing a job.

I'd say require some social skill tests to put their contacts at ease or convince them of the runner's side of the story. (Or a made up version, if they think that'll fly better.) Determine what answer would best pacify the particular NPC, and judge the effects accordingly. (So if their story would make a contact less trusting of them, they'll lose loyalty if they succeed.)

What could be fun is if they glitch one of the rolls and a contact becomes reassured because they think things went down differently than they really did. (ie: "I get it, the wife was paying you to get her kid back and wack the husband all along, and you made up this child abuse story to cover yourselves. You're my kind of scumbag, omae.")

[K M Faust]

Hermit, I think you have a point as the game is not intended for those who have high morals, but I agree with Wes when it comes to criminals even having a code for their gang, group, what have you. I just don't understand if someone doesn't see something a particular way that overgeneralizations are made "well the shadows aren't meant for the likes of you" is going over the line and why we cannot enjoy the blogs posted here to learn from each other instead of hitting someone in the proverbial gut by saying someone should not even play the game they enjoy just because they don't see something your way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Wesley Street]

Your first statement explains your later idea of 'some weird sense of morality' - it's a TV thing that tries to make the bad guys sem more palatable to the viewers at home. I've worked corrections, and while some criminals do get persecuted by others, that's more because prisoners tend to break into cliques faster than anything. Outside of such confinement, such 'rules' don't really apply to many criminals.

You get a lot of professional hitmen, cigar chomping international drug runners, or suave casino con artists in your county lockup? Because if you do, I'm moving to where you live. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[HappyDaze]

Nope. It was central Florida. We had a lot of domestic violence types, a fair amount of 'violent street offenders' (mainly in the 18-25 y/o range of 'youthful offenders' - I hated working that pop) and a lot of nonviolent criminals (check fraud, auto theft, etc.). If any of them were professional hitmen, they were professional enough to not reveal that fact.

[Wesley Street]

So it would be safe to say comparing real life wife-beaters, 'hoods, joy-riders and other loser criminals to glamorous fictional ones, be they on a television show or in a role-playing game, is an apples to oranges comparison.

[DireRadiant]

Contacts could make a Judge Intentions check, and then react accordingly. The team can also make an Etiquette test. It's really a RP issue for how the Gm wants the NPC to react. Either way, Notoriety should go up. Contacts will react as they will.

[HappyDaze]

So it would be safe to say comparing real life wife-beaters, 'hoods, joy-riders and other loser criminals to glamorous fictional ones, be they on a television show or in a role-playing game, is an apples to oranges comparison.

That depends - the contact in question is one of those 'loser criminals' when child abuse is taken into account. If you're going to mix your apples and oranges, you can still compare them on things they have in common.

[Wesley Street]

If Shadowrun was a game that attempted to realistically capture the 21st century criminal zeitgeist I would agree. But applying real sociological issues to a fictional world based on the tropes of action, adventure, crime, science-fiction and fantasy movies and literature makes for a slippery slope.

Your mileage may vary.

[Vegetaman]

It'd be more up to the runners to take out said contact without the girl or the mom or anybody else involved knowing what happened. Or set it up so the guys that kidnapped the girl look like the ones at fault, and then you return the girl to her mom since it's too late for the dad. Your runners look like heroes of the day, or something.

[HappyDaze]

But applying real sociological issues to a fictional world based on the tropes of action, adventure, crime, science-fiction and fantasy movies and literature makes for a slippery slope.

Such as the downside to the "I shoot them in the face" philosophy? If you're not going to deal with such things then you're leaving out a lot of the roleplaying potential. In a game where murder is commonly acceptable behavior for most everyone (PC and NPC), moral highground is often below sea level.

[Wesley Street]

I'm not saying anything should be left out. But holding Shadowrun through the lens of "this is the way the real world works" isn't always feasible. The morality of murder in fiction/gaming and the morality (and consequences) of murder in real-life are two different beasts. I've never met a gamer who was interested in role-playing what real guilt, regret and depression are like for fun except in the romanticized emo-Vampire sense.