Firearms Skill Breakdown!, ...another reepneep houserule to be ignored (ramblings of a madman) Options

[reepneep]

My Search-Fu is apparently weak as I cannot find the threads that sparked these thoughts.

After poking through the archives and reading several threads regarding the way firearms are broken up into categories and people's disapproval thereof, I submit the following thoughts:

We now have five firearms skills (one of them being a logical amalgamation of several formerly exotic weapons):

Short Arms: Tasers, Holdouts, Light Pistols, Heavy Pistols, Machine Pistols and Submachine Guns fall into this category. Loosely defined as a gun that can be fire effectively with one hand. In addition, they are also, almost without exception, short range weapons that fire large, low velocity projectiles.
Long Arms: Shotguns, Sport Rifles, Sniper Rifles and Assault Rifles fall into this category. Loosely defined as 'small arms' that need two hands to fire.
Heavy Weapons: As per RAW, with the addition of Water Cannons and Flamers. A bunch of large, generally military grade, quite often explosive weapons thrown into one big category for convenience.
Beam Weapons: Any 'weapon' that shoots electromagnetic radiation. Target designators, Lasers, HERF guns and the Pain Inducer would fall into this category. These weapons all hit nearly instantaneously, generate no recoil and have very different operational requirements than traditional firearms.
Automatics: Acts as recoil compensation equal to it's rating.

No more using the 'automatics' skill for SA on an assault rifle despite using the 'longarms' skill for SA on a sport rifle despite them sometimes being the same damn gun with different trigger groups. No more mooks being totally unable to use the automatic features of their bare-bones automatic weapons.

There are some issues with handling Automatics this way. Off the top of my head, the worst I've come up with is someone with Automatics 7(+2 HMG) going Rambo with a totally uncompensated HMG with no penalty. Then again, is that really any worse from a gameplay perspective than the existence of the Barret 121? In any case, its simple, glaringly logical, and fixes a couple of problems such as low-level opponents not being able to use their weapons.

Discuss or Ignore at your discretion.

[HappyDaze]

I'd suggest dropping Automatics as a skill but make up a seperate technique - like the martial arts maneuvers from Arsenal - that gives you a natural ability to apply 1/2 the skill rating (round up) of the applicaple weapon (short arms, long arms, etc.) as innate recoil compensation. Balance and tweak to your liking.

[psychophipps]

I'd suggest dropping Automatics as a skill but make up a seperate technique - like the martial arts maneuvers from Arsenal - that gives you a natural ability to apply 1/2 the skill rating (round up) of the applicaple weapon (short arms, long arms, etc.) as innate recoil compensation. Balance and tweak to your liking.

Or double the recoil mods for burst and autofire for those w/o the skill/manuever.

[HappyDaze]

Carrot or Stick? It depends on which way you want to go, but note that the rules have to make sense for people without the huge-ass-dicepools that dumpshock-approved runners seem to sport, and if they simply can't hit with automatic fire, then it's a bust.

[psychophipps]

Carrot or Stick? It depends on which way you want to go, but note that the rules have to make sense for people without the huge-ass-dicepools that dumpshock-approved runners seem to sport, and if they simply can't hit with automatic fire, then it's a bust.

I'm all for a bit more grit, in this regard. There is a reason why there were several hundred thousand rounds of autofire used in Vietnam per enemy casualty and it's not because autofire is TEH ROXOR, especially with untrained idiots.

[Mäx]

Looks kinda nice.
I assume taser are used with the short arms skill?

[psychophipps]

Looks kinda nice.
I assume taser are used with the short arms skill?

Tazers and firearms are like softball and shotput. Yeah, they both toss stuff but they ain't even in the same athletic category.

I would treat tazers as an exotic weapon and bring that handy-dandy gelpack gun from the base book into the fold of shortarms, myself.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah. "Point and shoot" versus "point and shoot" is like apples and oranges, man. That's why it takes years -- nay, decades -- to learn to use a taser, especially if you're already trained in the use fo pistols. I mean, my God. Those rent-a-cops and little old ladies running around with tasers. You think they're chumps? Pfft, they got more training than a Green Beret ninja. And they had to go to some exotic out of the way place to learn how to use 'em, too. Word.

Same goes for those crazy Ares Squirts. Yowza. All those little kids who go running around with their versions of one are Kung Fu geniuses, especially the ones who can nail you from three meters away. Woo baby.

(Hopefully my disdain for the Exotic Ranged Weapons skill with regards to shit like this is finding its way through the sarcasm.)

[ElFenrir]

I have a big problem with the exotic skills in general. Ok, not the actual idea of the skill. I mean, if you want to use, say, some kind of triple-barreled spinning gun that works by pulling a cord and mixing a chemical together, I can see why that would be under Exotic Ranged. If you want to staple a knife to a hammer and then mount the hammer on a beer helmet and use it as a weapon, I suppose I can count that as Exotic. But when stuff like a knee spike requires me to use an Exotic Melee Weapon(they count implants in strange places. and a knee is a strange place, apparently-last I read, unless they changed it. I guess the expert brawler sam forgets how to knee people if his spike is out), or a gun that is rather similar to something a gun expert would know how to use needs Exotic Ranged, I start asking questions, and then houseruling.

[Platinum Dragon]

Yeah. "Point and shoot" versus "point and shoot" is like apples and oranges, man. That's why it takes years -- nay, decades -- to learn to use a taser, especially if you're already trained in the use fo pistols. I mean, my God. Those rent-a-cops and little old ladies running around with tasers. You think they're chumps? Pfft, they got more training than a Green Beret ninja. And they had to go to some exotic out of the way place to learn how to use 'em, too. Word.

Same goes for those crazy Ares Squirts. Yowza. All those little kids who go running around with their versions of one are Kung Fu geniuses, especially the ones who can nail you from three meters away. Woo baby.

Heh... aheh... haha... ahahaha! BWHAHAHAHAAAAA!

*ahem*
...

Thanks, I needed that.

[reepneep]

I took around thirty minutes writing and rereading this post just to make sure I didn't miss anything and I leave out the damn tazers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) Also, Flamers (and their slightly less roasty cousin, water cannons) should be added to the heavy weapons category. OP has been edited to reflect this. I hate the exotic weapon rules too, El Fefnir.

I'm all for a bit more grit, in this regard. There is a reason why there were several hundred thousand rounds of autofire used in Vietnam per enemy casualty and it's not because autofire is TEH ROXOR, especially with untrained idiots.

I would tend to think that has more to do with the fact they were constantly using supression fire and shooting at glimpsed shadows in the jungle rather than the inherrent worthlessness of autofire, but that may be just me. If the target is clearly visible and under 50 meters away, a trained shooter should hit with a significant number of rounds even using ten round bursts. The better he is at controlling recoil, the higher his hit percentage will be. Also, your example would not be 'grit', it would be 'realism based on statistics from the Vietnam War which bares little resemblance to the world of ShadowRun'.

[psychophipps]

Yeah. "Point and shoot a long ranged, usually super-sonic chunk of (presumably) metal that blows holes into stuff" versus "point and shoot a pair of short, sharp metallic probes that are connected to a relatively short wire that in turn has to stay connected to the target and the weapon itself for the weapon to work and flies at a dramatically reduced velocity when compared to bullets" is like apples and oranges, man.

(Hopefully my disdain for the Exotic Ranged Weapons skill with regards to shit like this is finding its way through the sarcasm.)

There, fixed it for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I agree on the "Exotic Ranged Weapon" bit as well, but we didn't write the damn thing so...we be hosed.

[psychophipps]

I took around thirty minutes writing and rereading this post just to make sure I didn't miss anything and I leave out the damn tazers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) Also, Flamers (and their slightly less roasty cousin, water cannons) should be added to the heavy weapons category. OP has been edited to reflect this. I hate the exotic weapon rules too, El Fefnir.

I would tend to think that has more to do with the fact they were constantly using suppression fire and shooting at glimpsed shadows in the jungle rather than the inherent worthlessness of autofire, but that may be just me. If the target is clearly visible and under 50 meters away, a trained shooter should hit with a significant number of rounds even using ten round bursts. The better he is at controlling recoil, the higher his hit percentage will be. Also, your example would not be 'grit', it would be 'realism based on statistics from the Vietnam War which bares little resemblance to the world of ShadowRun'.

Actually, the main improvements in per-round casualty rates are due to a focus in training on semi-auto aimed fire and the inclusion of standard aiming devices and scope-type sights to the basic infantryman. I can only see smartguns and similar technology as further increasing this dramatic improvement in per-soldier and per-round lethality as long as they're not blowing 90% of their ammo at low-flying aircraft.

When they first had a look at the M14 rifle back in the 50s, the Army guys were 18 kinds of fired up by the SA demo team's ability to lay down accurate autofire during their little dog and pony shows. Of course, once the M14 came into general use they quickly discovered that when it comes to accurate autofire from this weapon, it really helps to be the SA demo team. The same goes for pretty much any autofire from anything heavier than a SMG like the MP5 (which is much heavier than it strictly has to be for controllability during autofire).

Autofire isn't worthless, it's just usually used incorrectly by those untrained in the specific use of autofiring weapons and the correct tactical application of said autofire. Look at insurgent videos from Afghanistan and Iraq. These show correctly what the indiscriminate use of autofire and a lack in correct tactical and weapons training often results in...pretty much a huge waste of ammunition (but dammit, it sure looks cool to untrained people! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

[Riley37]

I'd love rules for autofire in which the chance to hit with the first round is no less than the chance to hit with a single shot. Maybe rounds after the first have any accuracy, maybe not, but how does the recoil of the second and following rounds affect the accuracy of the first one?

By RAW:
Joe with AGL 3 and Automatics 1 (and no recoil comp) fires an AK-47 at a paper target 10 feet away, with the fire selector on single shot. DP4, he'll probably hit with that one bullet.
Joe flicks the fire selector to Burst, fires a wide long burst. Autofire penalty reduces his DP to 0. The paper target isn't dodging, so walking the shots onto target have no positive effect in game mechanics.

[Ol' Scratch]

There, fixed it for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yep, because no sharp shooter with a pistol has any hope of any accuracy with a taser. Let alone a water pistol. Nailed that one solid.

[psychophipps]

Yep, because no sharp shooter with a pistol has any hope of any accuracy with a taser. Let alone a water pistol. Nailed that one solid.

Defensive tactics instructor walking down the street towards his car parked in a blind alley. Let's say some thug with a Saturday Night Special in his waistband. The instructor sees the thug coming at him in an obviously menacing manner at a distance of 50 feet. Thug starts reaching for his gun and the "victim" goes for his Taser (which is just like a handgun) that he hasn't properly trained with. Thug starts to raise his pistol right about the time the more experienced instructor has his weapon all lined up to fire. The Taser fires fine but DOH! the wire stops at 30ft and falls limp (very much unlike the bullet he's used to which can go for quite a longer distance) while the thug shoots his firearm just fine. Bad day at the office anyone?

You fight as you train so you need to train to not fight like shit.

I'm not saying that the Taser is a completely foreign concept that is so mind-boggling that anyone with previous firearms-exclusive experience won't know which end to point towards their assailant. What I'm saying is that their function, use, and the realities associated with this other weapon system is just different enough that without proper practice and training there is a greatly increased chance of you getting yourself dead.

Case in point. You shoot someone with a handgun and it's pretty damn hard for them to get unshot. They have a hole or holes in them and if it's in the CNS or a major blood bearing organ there is a pretty good chance they won't be up for much more than screaming and bleeding in short order. You shoot someone with a Taser and they will probably go down as well. But once that juice cuts off for any reason at all (or only one of the probes hits them) then they're able to function if they have the will to get back up and get at you again. A bullet has an effect that lasts until the wound heals. A typical Taser charge is of 5 seconds duration without squeezing the trigger again for another 5 second jolt.

But yeah, they work exactly the same, right? I mean there is no difference at all between a firearm that can shoot for up to a mile (in the extremely unlikely event that the sights were lined up in the case of a handgun) and a Taser that can shoot only 30 ft or so. There is no difference at all in how you need to lead your target when you're firing a close to sonic velocity bullet vs. a much slower Taser. There is no difference at all between an immediate, potentially lethal ballistic effect of effectively unlimited duration and 5 seconds of incapacitation per Taser charge.

There is a reason why they have specific Taser tactical courses, after all. And that reason is not, "So all these LEOs can waste taxpayer money". A Taser is used so the officers have a non-lethal or impact-injurous ranged weapon that gives them 5 seconds to get some cuffs on the suspect's twitching ass while they scream like a bitch, not to replace firearms under any stretch of the imagination.

[Mäx]

That all true about contemporary tasers, but IMO tasers in SR don't have those wires but shoot capacitator darts.

[HappyDaze]

That all true about contemporary tasers, but IMO tasers in SR don't have those wires but shoot capacitator darts.

Any magician will tell you the ones with wire leads are better - because they can be enchanted as weapon foci!

[Mickle5125]

aaaactually... SR tasers go both ways. some have darts, and some use leads.

[reepneep]

I'd love rules for autofire in which the chance to hit with the first round is no less than the chance to hit with a single shot. Maybe rounds after the first have any accuracy, maybe not, but how does the recoil of the second and following rounds affect the accuracy of the first one?

By RAW:
Joe with AGL 3 and Automatics 1 (and no recoil comp) fires an AK-47 at a paper target 10 feet away, with the fire selector on single shot. DP4, he'll probably hit with that one bullet.
Joe flicks the fire selector to Burst, fires a wide long burst. Autofire penalty reduces his DP to 0. The paper target isn't dodging, so walking the shots onto target have no positive effect in game mechanics.

Depending on how you want to look at it, that effect could already be in the game. The fact that on each bullet after the first adds only 1P could be thought of as modeling the reduced accuracy of subsequent rounds. The kind of detail you sound like you're asking for basically requires each shot to be handled individually which would slow the flow of the game to a crawl. CP2020's combat rules, while considerably more realistic and detailed, were not much fun to play with unless you were looking for hour long turns.

[Riley37]

I'm fine with rough and low-detail modelling of the effect of rounds after the first. No, I don't wanna track each round. I want some sort of rapidly-decreasing effect of multiple rounds. For example, take your net hits that add damage, and then roll that many dice, up to # of shots, for even more damage from further rounds. (If you hit well with the first shot, then you're more likely to have multiple hits and thus even higher damage, no?) If you fired more rounds than you got net hits, then those extra rounds are wasted ammo (generally, depending on where the misses end up). This tends to make short bursts a good strategy; it makes long bursts worthwhile on point-blank easy shots, but not when shooting at distant or evasive targets.

I'm still objecting to the reduced accuracy of the first shot. If you fire a burst, you're more likely to miss entirely, than if you fired only one shot. What does that model?

GURPs has a set of "defaulting" rules in which having a high skill with Pistols gives you some advantage when firing weapons with similar grip and sights; better than having no relevant skills, but not as good as when you're firing an actual pistol. I dunno how to model that in SR4. Halved ranks?

[Ol' Scratch]

Shadowrun had very similar rules. Until the Great Dumbing Down™ that is 4th Edition. In 3rd Edition, which was already a dumbed down version of it, you suffered I believe a -2 penalty to your relevant skill. It's been a while so I may be off. 'Course, the Attribute-Skill dynamic worked completely different then, too, so that wouldn't be a clean translation of the rule either way.

[Wounded Ronin]

Crazy autofire while screaming is also emblematic of the Vietnam War. Which is why it becomes cool when you also play "Paint It Black" in the background.

[Falconer]

To OP... I don't care for it much.

I have my own issue w/ the automatics skill (that it covers everything from MP's to SMG's to AR's simply because they can fire full auto). But using the skill to give essentially a huge dicepool bonus is just wrong. (-2 then -5 dice... for most people means even w/ 3 points RC that second burst takes a -2 penalty). I'd say that borders on broken. Especially if you're firing wide bursts, each point of uncompensated recoil then reduces your attack pool by one, but it also reduces your defenders reaction pool by 1 as well, so it's a net wash (actually it's in your favor as normally attack pool is larger than reaction pool, so each reduction is proportionally more)


I don't like that you break what is essentially 3 different firearms skills down into a mere 2, then use the 3rd to give a major boost to the first 2.

I'd probably look more at a Pistols, ShortArms/Carbines, and LongArms breakdown and eliminate automatics.
Pistols covering pistols and MP's. (change specialization to cover light pistols, heavy pistols, or MP's. No catchall 'automatics' allowed)
Short arms covering short ranged weapons like carbines, shotguns, and SMG's. (EG: short range weapons, and 'hand and a half' weapons which can be used 1 or 2 handed).
Long Arms covering AR's, hunting & sniper rifles.
Heavy Weaps, again no change from SR catchall category for belt-fed & heavy explosive weapons

If you absolutely had to have automatics... use it to cap your relevant gun skill. (EG: pistol 5, automatics 3... firing that MP on BF you only get 3 points since you haven't trained enough to handle automatic fire. If you specialized automatics in MP's then you could use your full 5 dice firing those full auto w/o penalty except for recoil and recoil comp as normal.

Just keep in mind there's a certain arbitrariness to rules systems. You don't want to significantly change karma and skill costs. Also remember that the skill reflects not just point the red dot over the target and squeeze the trigger, but also the maintenance, and proper use, and limitations of each.

[Platinum Dragon]

I'm fine with rough and low-detail modelling of the effect of rounds after the first. No, I don't wanna track each round. I want some sort of rapidly-decreasing effect of multiple rounds. For example, take your net hits that add damage, and then roll that many dice, up to # of shots, for even more damage from further rounds. (If you hit well with the first shot, then you're more likely to have multiple hits and thus even higher damage, no?) If you fired more rounds than you got net hits, then those extra rounds are wasted ammo (generally, depending on where the misses end up). This tends to make short bursts a good strategy; it makes long bursts worthwhile on point-blank easy shots, but not when shooting at distant or evasive targets.

I'm still objecting to the reduced accuracy of the first shot. If you fire a burst, you're more likely to miss entirely, than if you fired only one shot. What does that model?

GURPs has a set of "defaulting" rules in which having a high skill with Pistols gives you some advantage when firing weapons with similar grip and sights; better than having no relevant skills, but not as good as when you're firing an actual pistol. I dunno how to model that in SR4. Halved ranks?

Mutant Chronicles actually did that to some degree. You fire a three round burst? Roll one attack using rifles skill (as you aim and pull the trigger), then one using your automatics skill (as you ride the burst). As to defaulting in GURPS, I think that's sort-of the effect SR4 was going for with skill groups.

Crazy autofire while screaming is also emblematic of the Vietnam War. Which is why it becomes cool when you also play "Paint It Black" in the background.

QFMFT.