Fire Support Sniper and shots around the corner SAM, Help me build a man made of *rock* Options

[Guru Nath Butter...]

This is for a 400 point game, try not to go porno (higher than 16dice in anything) I just want versatility and tactical options in skills and gear, bio, cyber, what have you. Sniper rifle and a machine gun that fires around corners are a must (* I could buy one of those today people, don't let me down*) My group has two mages and two Adepts so NO MAGIC.

Apologies if this repeats any thread, I didn't check all the archives but I looked for it about six pages in and simply found sniper porno chats, not a full build.

Suggestions; take it away!

[crash2029]

Well for solid gun skills at all ranges take Firearms skill group. To fire around corners just have a smartlinked weapon and an image link on your eye. The smartlink includes a guncam and the image link lets you use it to aim without using the sights. Alternatively you can just add a guncam by itself. I believe the guncam is in arsenal.

[Guru Nath Butter...]

Just to be clear, I am talking about around the corner shots (as in firing at you accurately from 100% cover as the 'Corner Shot' model of weapons do.)

Here is a deliciously fascist website with video on what I meant. I also love the 'Simon' door breach tool for the M4 mentioned on Future Shock, any conversion or better version of that? What would it be treated as, a dumb grenade? Rocket projected harpoon? I want one!

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/sma...Corner_Shot.htm

Thanks for any help as always.

[kzt]

Use a Steel Lynx.

[Ryu]

Echo that. Fire Support Sniper => Rigger. A rigger has good shots at keeping up with the awakened chars.

[the_real_elwood]

Just to be clear, I am talking about around the corner shots (as in firing at you accurately from 100% cover as the 'Corner Shot' model of weapons do.)

Here is a deliciously fascist website with video on what I meant. I also love the 'Simon' door breach tool for the M4 mentioned on Future Shock, any conversion or better version of that? What would it be treated as, a dumb grenade? Rocket projected harpoon? I want one!

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/sma...Corner_Shot.htm

Thanks for any help as always.

Well, I don't know what the SR4 rulebook says about around the corner shots, but the "Corner Shot" weapon conversion never looked particularly useful to me, and as far as I know no forces are really picking it up. Plus, the corner shot is just a chassis for a pistol, so you don't really get a "machine gun" either. But as far as function goes, the guncam and smartlink are essentially the same system. But I still don't believe that the rules will allow you to shoot from 100% cover without significant penalties, if only for game balance purposes. But if you really want fire support, load up on firearm skills and see if you can get yourself an MMG, and then blast away. And as with any firearms-using character, load up on as much recoil compensation as you can.

[Tarantula]

Shooting from cover, -1 penalty.
Ability to shot from cover, smartlink enabled weapon w/image link to view.
Penalty for them to shoot you back? -6.

[Guru Nath Butter...]

Well, I don't know what the SR4 rulebook says about around the corner shots, but the "Corner Shot" weapon conversion never looked particularly useful to me, and as far as I know no forces are really picking it up.

The US Military has adopted 'Corner Shot' extensively for breach entry since the Israelis introduced it. I don't think they've gone as far as kitty-corner shot yet though. (if you watched the 'Future Weapons vid on the same page, you'll get the reference, if not, basically a corner shot gun with a puppet of a cute kitten on it; makes the enemy hesitate one second when they see it on a corner.

Plus, the corner shot is just a chassis for a pistol, so you don't really get a "machine gun" either.

This is embarassing; I can't believe this weapon hasn't been converted. It is 100% RULE. The Panzerfaust 60MM is a cornershot assault rifle with a grenade launcher, not pistol. The Chinese have perfected the art with their HD66, which is top of the market for optical interface-god only knows what the Israelis think tops their Panzerfaust. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-9835847-42.html

But I still don't believe that the rules will allow you to shoot from 100% cover without significant penalties, if only for game balance purposes.

I can understand attempts to keep game balance, but when the weapon is represented, it should be better than firing from partial cover, I think we can all agree on that.

But if you really want fire support, load up on firearm skills and see if you can get yourself an MMG, and then blast away. And as with any firearms-using character, load up on as much recoil compensation as you can.

I would get steam recoil vents on my back like Heatguy J if I could. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks for your thoughts.

[Guru Nath Butter...]

Shooting from cover, -1 penalty.
Ability to shot from cover, smartlink enabled weapon w/image link to view.
Penalty for them to shoot you back? -6.

If they have a target at all, (besides grenade on the entire area) it's not a corner shot. Please tell me someone has converted this gun!!!

[Tarantula]

The -6 is for them to go "oh, hes around the corner" and try to hit you through the wall. If they wanted to try that. They also have to use int instead of agi, and you get the armor of the wall to your test, if they can even penetrate it to begin with.

[Guru Nath Butter...]

Use a Steel Lynx.

Interesting, but I have no interest in Riggers. Appreciate the thought. I will look into it for my weekly game, but I am discussing my own character here.
A Sam, with what will no doubt be a big emphasis on sniping, lots of recoil suppressing cyber, and if I can get it, a corner shot weapon (SMG/Assault/MG/RG).

I know smartlinked weapons have cameras on them. I know about AR contacts. If you can target my hand, it's not a corner shot gun.

Does anyone know if this weapon was deliberately overlooked in the interest of game balance as some of the discussion here implies?

[Tarantula]

Again. If you have full cover, you can shoot from it, with any smartlinked gun, for a -1 penalty. Any return fire they have against you, is against full cover, as they are shooting at where they think you are THROUGH the cover. You can describe your gun however you feel like it, but thats how the rules work.

[Guru Nath Butter...]

Ahh, I get it, thank you. You have reassured me (and scared me a bit, I have never seen a player take a corner shot from cover, how sad.)

[Captain K]

I guess it differs from game to game, but whenever bullets started flying in any game I've ever played, everybody ran for cover.

[the_real_elwood]

I guess it differs from game to game, but whenever bullets started flying in any game I've ever played, everybody ran for cover.

So then with those cover rules, how does anybody hit anybody else? It seems like at that point, it'd devolve into everyone taking potshots at each other from behind cover until they get bored and give up (or drop a grenade behind said cover). And I don't recall cover being quite that advantageous in SR3. I think that in SR3 the penalty you took to shoot was the same as the penalty other people took to hit, but we may have read the rules wrong too.

[kzt]

What my players (and skilled security forces) would do was use their alphas to air burst HE grenades about 1 foot from your face.

This isn't WW2. In SR it's a fancy way of committing suicide. Use a Drone.

[the_real_elwood]

While I get it and I agree that airburst grenades are great, what that basically means is that after initial contact and a couple of shots fired, your lead-throwers aren't good for much unless there's an attached grenade launcher, and it means every encounter turns into an explosives-fest too. And I love blowing stuff up as much as the next guy, but I'd houserule more of a penalty to firing from behind 100% cover, even if you do have a guncam and image link. I know it's not the RAW, but I have no problem with that.

[kzt]

Grenade launchers are extremely non-subtle and non-selective This is a VERY BAD THING. But when someone opens up on you with a machine gun the time for subtlety, stealth and worrying about damaged furniture is over.

We actually used grenades pretty rarely. Our preferred approach was convince the security guards help us get in. Coveralls, a clever hacker and a van logo go a long way.

[CoyoteNZ]

It seems like at that point, it'd devolve into everyone taking potshots at each other from behind cover until they get bored and give up (or drop a grenade behind said cover).

Actually no.

For security forces, this is very good, as they can hide, take potshots from strong intentionally built cover, and wait for their reinforcements to showup

For the shadowrunners, this is very bad, as the longer they take to breach a location, the more time there is for reinforcements to show up and surround them. Because of this, normally it means the shadowrunners have failed and have to retreat, or they have to go ballistic, take a few shots storming the cover so as to not get overrun.

It sucks being the attacking force, you normally have to storm a posistion well defended against you.

The defender normally can wait in a good position and have backup arrive.

Or are I just being to mean?

Max,
Dunedin, NZ

[BullZeye]

I bet that char will earn lots of respect from his team mates: "Where's our fire support? Oh, there, you can see his barrel behind the corner." For giving support, one usually needs to see things from distance and thus have a good overview of the situation. The way I understand the smartlink, it gives you a 1m x 1m image of whatever the gun is pointing at. So in order to notice stuff with it, I'd say -+0 if the object is directly where you are looking (like keeping an eye on one single door/window and -10DP for everything else, assuming you do move the gun around. For the corner shot weapon platform, I don't think it can that well hold guns bigger than a pistol. Yes, I saw the AK74 variant of it, but when you have recoil in a 45 degree angle, I don't think it's that easily contained, thus I'd give it double recoil penalty BEFORE compensation. If you hold a gun out with your hands, you got at least a chance to hold the bull by it's horns and not try to hold just the tail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Shooting mini target is a -4 penalty, so shooting at the visible part of the gun isn't that hard according to Arsenal p161. And again you have the disadvantage of very limited LOS.

And besides, what kind of fire support guy goes to places where he has to use such a system? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ElFenrir]

As for lots of cool recoil supressing cyber- a pair of strong cyberarms(which are awesome now), and gyro-mount should fit your needs. You can a 7 strength rather easily for some recoil, plus the gyro-mounts. You could get a higher strength too, with Restricted Gear, or just playing an ork or something. (I forget the availability for a pair of Strength 9 cyberarms.)

[Shiloh]

But if you really want fire support, load up on firearm skills and see if you can get yourself an MMG...

And have no applicable skill... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) MMGs are Heavy weapons, no?

[Ryu]

While I get it and I agree that airburst grenades are great, what that basically means is that after initial contact and a couple of shots fired, your lead-throwers aren't good for much unless there's an attached grenade launcher, and it means every encounter turns into an explosives-fest too. And I love blowing stuff up as much as the next guy, but I'd houserule more of a penalty to firing from behind 100% cover, even if you do have a guncam and image link. I know it's not the RAW, but I have no problem with that.

Full cover is only worth as much as it provides additional armor dice. The -6 penalty for hitting something behind cover is well compensated for by the inability of the target to see the attack coming. Then you can always maneuver so that the opponents cover is worthless. Grenades are one, but not the only answer.

To the OP: You should provide a skeleton build for what you want.

[toturi]

Actually no.

For security forces, this is very good, as they can hide, take potshots from strong intentionally built cover, and wait for their reinforcements to showup

For the shadowrunners, this is very bad, as the longer they take to breach a location, the more time there is for reinforcements to show up and surround them. Because of this, normally it means the shadowrunners have failed and have to retreat, or they have to go ballistic, take a few shots storming the cover so as to not get overrun.

It sucks being the attacking force, you normally have to storm a posistion well defended against you.

The defender normally can wait in a good position and have backup arrive.

Or are I just being to mean?

Max,
Dunedin, NZ

It can cut both ways. A good runner team can make situation work for them instead of the sec force.

[Chrysalis]

Usually sniper situations devolve because of close air-support. Three large UAVs with rocket casettes and 20mm machineguns make for swiss cheese of the building and the sniper.