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> German Shadowrun art
raben-aas
post Nov 17 2008, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 14 2008, 04:13 PM) *
Raben-aas, could you give us any hints if it's worth to wait for the german version of RC and Unwired? Will they have new content in it?


Well, judging from the reaction on the racial pix of RC in German forums and Pegasus' policy to put in new artwork "where it is needed" I'd say yes, I think that there will be new artwork for the SR races and – for me – that would be enough reason to wait for German RC (or rather: to buy it again, as I needed to have the ruiles on shapechangers right away, as one character in my group is one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

What I can say for ALL German books is that every single one of them will have "extra content" relating to the ADL setting, if applicable. To what extend, no one knows yet. One could speculate that Pegasus will expand on the "ogre" metatype perhaps, as it is stated that this metatye is more common in Europe and Germany, and there might be an extra chapter in Unwired about the German Matrix and hacker scene (maybe a chapter on the Schockwellenreiters?).

The thing is: I don't KNOW anything about what changes/additions will be made, but I KNOW (from what Pegasus has declared openly and officialy) that they will do MORE than just translate stuff – they will always do everything they can to make each book as good as possible, and that means: to design it in a way that German SR players, being their customers, will be pleased to the max: By including errata, by updating the content to any changes Catalyst has published in the meantime, by adding artwork that matches "the taste of the German fanbase" (usually meaning: more gritty, noir and dark) and by adding new content relating to the ADL setting.

I don't know if that makes it worthwhile to wait for the German books for you, but I'm REALLY looking forward to the new books (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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raben-aas
post Nov 17 2008, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Nov 15 2008, 12:06 PM) *
The Situation is, that most of the German Players speak English and can or are actually playing with the English books. So the German Publisher as to put some extra content in the book to get the people buying it, if they already have the English Version. (and considering we are at least one year past CGL in the release schedule: no Emergence, Augmentation, Unwired, Runners Companion, Ghost Cartels and Corporate Enclaves so far and Arsenal 2070 release was the first book after 1,5 years)


Quoted for truth.

The "time-lag" between English publication and German translation has been the end for many German ventures in the RPG market as most roleplayers speak Englishg quite well and want to have their new material NOW!!

This situation has led to the downfall of Vampire: The Requiem in Germany (in addition to German fanboydom regarding Massquerade): One part of the German Vampire scene never took a second look at the new English Requiem system, and whoever WAS interested in Requiem bought the English books as they became available. Between both groups, the Germann license holder had to abandon publication of Vampire in German.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 17 2008, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE
What I can say for ALL German books is that every single one of them will have "extra content" relating to the ADL setting, if applicable.

so the german augmentation just might bring back zeiss eyes and the such?
Edit: Games were a better teacher for me when it comes to english than those people at School . .
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2008, 09:52 AM
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I still see no reason that this 'extra' material can't be made available on the net for the rest of the fan base after a reasonable amount of time.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 17 2008, 09:55 AM
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just wait for someone who is bored enough to translate the stuff . .
only problem will be finding oout what's in there that's not in the engrish books . .
especially, if you start out with the german books that have it and don't know the
engrish books that do NOT have it . .
something like the digital grimoire in german would be nice and easy, because it's
new stuff and because it is in german it's pretty likely that it's stuff the others don't
get to see . .
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Grinder
post Nov 17 2008, 10:57 AM
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Now I'm gonna wait for the german RC. New art! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Even though I have to say that so much of the translation in Arsenal sounds cheesy and the new content in the clothing chapter made me nearly vomit.
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Tachi
post Nov 17 2008, 11:11 AM
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Spew inducing clothes? Have you been hanging out in front of Vercace?
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raben-aas
post Nov 17 2008, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 17 2008, 10:52 AM) *
I still see no reason that this 'extra' material can't be made available on the net for the rest of the fan base after a reasonable amount of time.


And whoevber said that it won't become available? As far as I know, some of the German authors are on the American team anyway, and most of the German stuff gets written or at least summerized in English anyway, for Catalyst's approval. And while Pegasus doesn't plan any PDF releases, Catalyst does, and (as rumor has it, though I don't remember where exactly I've read it) thinks about releasing the German material in English at some point in the (not so distant?) future.
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raben-aas
post Nov 17 2008, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 17 2008, 11:57 AM) *
and the new content in the clothing chapter made me nearly vomit.


How so?
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Grinder
post Nov 17 2008, 11:15 AM
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QUOTE (Tachi @ Nov 17 2008, 12:11 PM) *
Spew inducing clothes? Have you been hanging out in front of Vercace?


No, the style of the clothings was ok, but the way the text was written.
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Tachi
post Nov 17 2008, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 17 2008, 04:15 AM) *
No, the style of the clothings was ok, but the way the text was written.

Ok in English but bad German? Or vice versa?
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2008, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Nov 17 2008, 08:55 PM) *
just wait for someone who is bored enough to translate the stuff . .



QUOTE (raben-aas @ Nov 17 2008, 10:14 PM) *
And whoevber said that it won't become available?


Given that fuck-all of this type of content (either officially or not) has been made available in the past, I'm not exactly planning on holding my breath.
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Grinder
post Nov 17 2008, 11:54 AM
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Ok in English, bad in German. And some of the new german-only content breaks with the style of the text: while the translated parts are written in a neutral style/tone, the german-only stuff reads like a (bad) advertising page.
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MYST1C
post Nov 17 2008, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder @ Nov 17 2008, 12:54 PM) *
Ok in English, bad in German.

It's a general problem with Arsenal 2070. As I mentioned in the respective thread at Pegasus' forums throughout the book you will sometimes think "now, that's a strange sentence structure there". Always understandable but quite removed from everyday German, as if there had been no "language polishing" after the initial translation from English.
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Tycho
post Nov 17 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 17 2008, 05:52 AM) *
I still see no reason that this 'extra' material can't be made available on the net for the rest of the fan base after a reasonable amount of time.


It costs money and time? Time that can be used to write new books for example.
Someone has to translate it, edit it, layout it and so on.



cya
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2008, 10:17 PM
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As we have seen from the latest mini-PDF release, people are not adverse to paying a small fee for new (or extra) material. As for time, as far as I know the layout person does not contribute much (any more) to the actual writing of the books, so that really isn't an issue.
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Adam
post Nov 17 2008, 10:21 PM
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Uhhh... the layout person doesn't contribute to the writing [generally], but they do LAY IT OUT, which is a requirement, you know. That time is precious -- trust me.
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2008, 10:31 PM
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I understand that. I actually tried to reword that sentence five or six times, but was not happy with any of the incarnations, but posted anyway.

I meant that it would not take up any 'writing' or 'creation' time. Yes, of course you would still have to do the layout. But you do layout for all kind of things all the time. Most of the time it is products that are for sale, but other times such things are fodder for the Shadowrun website. I really don't think the layout time is a major issue, especially if the product was expected to make a little money for the company.
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Stahlseele
post Nov 17 2008, 10:33 PM
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and i think most people would be willing to overlook bad/no lay out in favour of getting new toys and infos for their game to use and flesh out the world with a bit more . .
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Adam
post Nov 17 2008, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (Fortune @ Nov 17 2008, 06:31 PM) *
I really don't think the layout time is a major issue, especially if the product was expected to make a little money for the company.

Layout time and cost is always an issue, just like writing cost and writing time, art cost and time, etc. There are places where corners can be cut -- re-using artwork, for example, saves both money and time -- but layout has to happen, and doing the layout for a PDF takes more or less the same effort and time as a print project.
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2008, 10:47 PM
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Note that I never said it wasn't an issue. I claimed that, in my opinion, it is not a major one. Translation would be a bigger concern, as far as I can see. I very specifically made no comment as to costs.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. You did the layout for the Digital Grimoire, as you did for the book and PDF of Ghost Cartels before that. How would this layout job be any different to those?
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Adam
post Nov 17 2008, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE
How would this layout job be any different to those?


It wouldn't be -- but the claims that layout is not a major issue with regards to book/PDF production is simply wrong. Sadly, I do not have a giant button that says "Press this to make this manuscript look like a Shadowrun book."

Bear this in mind: If I can spend my time working on a book that will sell in the thousands, or a PDF that will sell in the hundreds ... what do you think is the best way for me to spend my time? I only have so much time per day that I can sanely spend working.

Frankly, I spent a stupid amount of time on Digital Grimoire doing layout, proofreading it myself, adding corrections, etc. Had we been paying a freelancer to do it [as opposed to my salaried time], the experimental project would have been even more likely to fail -- and I didn't want it to fail, so I gave up a weekend and some evenings to make sure it was finished to my satisfaction.
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Fortune
post Nov 18 2008, 08:41 AM
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I think you overstate my claims. I did not declare that all layout in regards to books and PDFs is not a big issue. I claimed that, in my opinion, the layout for this particular job, which is mainly just text, is not that big of a deal. Now, I may be wrong in that specific declaration, but I'm not stupid enough to disclaim your entire profession as useless and immaterial.

Be that as it may, I stand by my claim that 'extra material' like this, and the stuff in the other German releases, should be made available to the entire customer base.
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Cabral
post Nov 18 2008, 12:29 PM
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Regarding Translation, InterTran has a fairly decent online service for translation. I use it for translating a few Finnish and German words at work. It still takes a little interpreting but it can give you the gist.

As for layout, I primarily (again at work) publish PDFs with flowing layouts in Word. This is fairly quick. Layouts in Publisher or Quark are MUCH more time consuming. (I seem to recall Quark being easier than Publisher.)

However, perhaps a less professional Word -> PDF could be considered to get extra material, such as Digital Grimoire type "expansions", available as PDF downloads.
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Adam
post Nov 18 2008, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Cabral @ Nov 18 2008, 07:29 AM) *
As for layout, I primarily (again at work) publish PDFs with flowing layouts in Word. This is fairly quick. Layouts in Publisher or Quark are MUCH more time consuming. (I seem to recall Quark being easier than Publisher.)

However, perhaps a less professional Word -> PDF could be considered to get extra material, such as Digital Grimoire type "expansions", available as PDF downloads.

I can punch out something good-looking in InDesign *much* more easily and quickly than Word. It's not the tools, it's the attention to detail that takes the time, and we'd surely be railed on if we released a bunch of stuff that was far below our usual production values.
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