Shadowrun Taboos, What do you think? Options

[Janice]

Actually, cross-metatype couples aren't okay. They're actually less okay than polygamous lesbians in a pentangular relationship. At least, it was as of Sprawl Survival Guide. Most often the worst such interracial couples would get are strange looks, but more than a few people would gladly make an example of them by hanging their corpses in some public place. But that's just in Seattle.

Different areas and different cultures will have different taboos, as is the case today. There are still some deeply traditional cultures in the Sixth World which hold on to their traditional ways, including traditional taboos. Others are much more "enlightened".

Sounds like a book from an older edition, meaning that the views in there are from ten years+ in Shadowrun's past.

[Rad]

They still hang nooses from trees, occasionally.

Things like that take a long time to go away, ten years isn't that long.

[Janice]

They still hang nooses from trees, occasionally.

Things like that take a long time to go away, ten years isn't that long.

Perhaps, the increased adoption of the internet is changing how rapidly social trends change today, how much different is it going to be in 2070?

[Cantankerous]

Perhaps, the increased adoption of the internet is changing how rapidly social trends change today, how much different is it going to be in 2070?

Not that much. Hatred is still hatred and the basises for some of it is so old, so ingrained into the human psyche that it will take a hell of a sight longer than just over half a century for it to disappear.

Isshia

[HappyDaze]

Not that much. Hatred is still hatred and the basises for some of it is so old, so ingrained into the human psyche that it will take a hell of a sight longer than just over half a century for it to disappear.

Really? So every white boy in Tennessee still has a noose in his trunk to hang the black man? I don't think so - in fact, I know it's not so. Overt racism has dropped off dramatically in 'just over half a century' - and we haven't had nearly as much interconnectivity along with the kinds of massive world-shaking changes SR has had that tend to bring people new ways of viewing things.

[Janice]

it will take a hell of a sight longer than just over half a century for it to disappear.

Take a good long look at how much social perception of racism changed even between the sixties and the seventies, then compare that to how racism is perceived today. Even with the span of a decade, the change in social outlook was staggering, over 50 years, the previous view is considered to be alien to most.

[Snow_Fox]

For every taboo you can come up with, there's always someone out there crazy enough or evil enough to do that. Just like the doctor that was raising kids in the Matrix, the general public was outraged, but he only lost his corp backing after the public found out about it. Nothing in the Sixth World is taboo enough for no one to try it.

right, Ares, having quashed bug hives then tries to have tame hives. oops.
Personally, going back to the first post in the thread, I've usually used variarous mind control spells regularly. I see it as more merciful to trick a guard than shoot him. and on one occassion I used mob mind to cause a bar room brawl to escape from a couple of bad guys.

The only thing I see as overall taboo's would be things that interfer with your ability to do your job- like fragging over johnsons (taking the money and not doing the job) or contacts or setting up other runners and getting caught at it.

[Cantankerous]

To Happy and Janice both:

We aren't talking about every individual here, but over all perspectives. Ask just about any African American, or Native American, or other large minority in the United States whether or not racism still exists, and exists STRONGLY! I think that to say that the base opinions are changing is putting rose colored blinders on. The specifics are thankfully changing, which is a great first step towards over all change, but if either of you is honestly suggesting that racism is a thing of the past, I want to know where you are living, so I can journey to your world, because people, mine isn't like that at all!

Racism was always reviled by the people who weren't racist themselves, and the ones who were truly racist were almost always a tiny majority, just as they are today. Now the majority are simply more able to make themselves heard about it. THAT is what the Internet has changed. It has made the silent majority no longer silent.

Edit: As far back as the seventies I was involved with various Civil Rights actions back in Florida. And you know, FAR and away most people thought that militant racists were brain damaged back then, just as they do now. The perception of racism was just as negative as it is today. The difference was that for someone to do something about it took a ton of effort then. Today to make your opinion know concerning your disdain for racism takes thirty seconds and a computer with access to the net. THAT is the real change.

Isshia

[HappyDaze]

We aren't talking about every individual here, but over all perspectives.

The overall perspective has changed. Neither of us claimed that racism no longer exists, merely that it has gone from being generally acceptable to rather unacceptable. This thread is about changes like that, and that's what we're pointing out to you. Hell, you even caught a glimpse of it in your own post...

It has made the silent majority no longer silent.

Now magnify this 1000x and see what constant access to worldwide culture will bring. Seventy years will be plenty of time to see memes come and go.

[masterofm]

Cantankerous... he was talking about overt racism. Overt. There is and always will be some form of racism, because you can't keep people from thinking it. The difference is despite the fact that there is racism it has actually improved in the last 50 years. Doesn't mean that it's gone, but it has improved. Might never be gone since you can't control the thoughts in people's heads.... yet.

@ Snow_Fox - The reason why I find mind control spells taboo is not for the fact that you can use them to get you out of a tight spot, but for the fact that you can control people like a puppet and have them do terrible things. If you wanted to make someone be unable to chase you, you can hit them with a high force orgasm/orgy spell that will drop everyone. You could make yourself invisible, or you could have a spirit slow them down. Using people like a tool is still using people like a tool. You might not be killing them, but the possibility for abuse is just staggering.

Yeah I didn't kill the guard, I just mind probed him, stole all of his money from his bank accounts, and then had him snatch all of the information I needed for that data steal... but I didn't kill him. I mean I'm not a monster.

[Karaden]

To Happy and Janice both:

We aren't talking about every individual here, but over all perspectives. Ask just about any African American, or Native American, or other large minority in the United States whether or not racism still exists, and exists STRONGLY! I think that to say that the base opinions are changing is putting rose colored blinders on. The specifics are thankfully changing, which is a great first step towards over all change, but if either of you is honestly suggesting that racism is a thing of the past, I want to know where you are living, so I can journey to your world, because people, mine isn't like that at all!

Racism was always reviled by the people who weren't racist themselves, and the ones who were truly racist were almost always a tiny majority, just as they are today. Now the majority are simply more able to make themselves heard about it. THAT is what the Internet has changed. It has made the silent majority no longer silent.


Isshia

Your right, racism still exists today, and likely will for many years to come. However, the original point her is if cross Metarace relationships are taboo. Yes, some racism exists in modern day, but noone would say that an interracial couple is a taboo.

In the same light, sure there are racists in SR4, and -those- people might think poorly of a cross Metarace couple, but the largest part of the population isn't going to consider it Taboo. Sure, some humanis people might try stringing up a Human/Elf couple, but you have to remember that for each person who would do that, there are thousands who wouldn't. Taboos work in the exact opposite way. If there was one person who accepted it per thousands that don't, then we'd be talking Taboo. In the mean time we're looking at frowned upon by some, hated by a few, and indifference by most.

[Cantankerous]

Getting away from the racism topic for a minute.

Yeah I didn't kill the guard, I just mind probed him, stole all of his money from his bank accounts, and then had him snatch all of the information I needed for that data steal... but I didn't kill him. I mean I'm not a monster.

You could do that and THAT wouldn't be much different or kinder than shooting the man. But you can also JUST suggest that he really needs to take a leak RIGHT NOW and get past him without doing anything more egregious to him than making him desert his post for a few moments. As with ANY weapon, magical mind control is all about HOW you use it.

You can kill a man with a a Narcoject Pistol too. Or with with a punch that wasn't designed to kill. It doesn't invalidate those approaches either to use them to try to get past the sentry.


Isshia

[Cantankerous]

However, the original point her is if cross Metarace relationships are taboo. Yes, some racism exists in modern day, but noone would say that an interracial couple is a taboo.

Actually you find ALLOT of people today who not only say that an interracial couple is taboo, but that they should be legally forced to separate. Now maybe you wouldn't find to many people in your own neighbor saying that, but this is a big old world man.

Isshia

[Karaden]

@ Snow_Fox - The reason why I find mind control spells taboo is not for the fact that you can use them to get you out of a tight spot, but for the fact that you can control people like a puppet and have them do terrible things. If you wanted to make someone be unable to chase you, you can hit them with a high force orgasm/orgy spell that will drop everyone. You could make yourself invisible, or you could have a spirit slow them down. Using people like a tool is still using people like a tool. You might not be killing them, but the possibility for abuse is just staggering.

Yeah I didn't kill the guard, I just mind probed him, stole all of his money from his bank accounts, and then had him snatch all of the information I needed for that data steal... but I didn't kill him. I mean I'm not a monster.

I've got to agree with Snow Fox here. I think I already said this, but I'll point it out again. A mind control spell to get someone to do something isn't any worse then a ton of other things you could do to them. I mean you could be broke and unemployed, or you could be dead and broke. Personally I'd rather have the air in my lungs.

Mind controling a person to pass you all their cash isn't really any worse then hacking their accounts and stealing it. Mind controlling a person to steal data for you isn't any worse then using threats/blackmail. Mind controlling a person a person to not attack you is far less worse then killing them. I mean there isn't really any affect you can get via mind control that you couldn't get some other way, and those other ways aren't taboo, so why is doing it via mind control suddenly taboo?

[Cantankerous]

I've got to agree with Snow Fox here. I think I already said this, but I'll point it out again. A mind control spell to get someone to do something isn't any worse then a ton of other things you could do to them. I mean you could be broke and unemployed, or you could be dead and broke. Personally I'd rather have the air in my lungs.

Mind controling a person to pass you all their cash isn't really any worse then hacking their accounts and stealing it. Mind controlling a person to steal data for you isn't any worse then using threats/blackmail. Mind controlling a person a person to not attack you is far less worse then killing them. I mean there isn't really any affect you can get via mind control that you couldn't get some other way, and those other ways aren't taboo, so why is doing it via mind control suddenly taboo?

I'd even argue that it is LESS egregious than using threats or blackmail or physical assault (and still more so than simply hacking their account would be) because the person is less intimately culpable than they are if they succumb to blackmail or threats, they weren't responsible for what was done to them, which is at least partly the case in the other two instances, and while the mental aspects of being mind raped is terrible, you still have all those aspects in regular rape as well as the physical ones. In being beaten to a bloody pulp to get your money, the mental aspects of THAT stay with you as well.


Isshia

[Janice]

Actually you find ALLOT of people today who not only say that an interracial couple is taboo, but that they should be legally forced to separate. Now maybe you wouldn't find to many people in your own neighbor saying that, but this is a big old world man.

Isshia

I don't know, I guess it's a lot different here in BC, but I almost never see anyone who so much as thinks twice when they see interracial couples. Though, that may be because Caucasian/First Nations couples are extremely common in this part of BC.

[Karaden]

Actually you find ALLOT of people today who not only say that an interracial couple is taboo, but that they should be legally forced to separate. Now maybe you wouldn't find to many people in your own neighbor saying that, but this is a big old world man.

Isshia

Alot? Like more then 95%? No. Not a Taboo. More then 50%? No. If it was really a majority that thought that, it would be a law. It isn't a law, thus it isn't a majority. If it isn't the majority, then it isn't a true Taboo, just something that a few people think of as Taboo, thus falls under the category of 'hated by a few and disliked by some'.

Ok, if you want to get loose with the definition of Taboo, yes, it is a Taboo for some. But I think the OP is asking for Taboos that are basically universal.

You may say alot, but what you mean is "I know a fair number of these people, but I don't even know .1% of the people in the city in which I live."

[sunnyside]

don't EVER fire an assault rifle in each hand.

I've broken that one

And thus commence the shunning!


Dirty munchkins...

[Janice]

I've broken that one


And thus commence the shunning!


Dirty munchkins...

Hey, gimme a break. It was a troll NPC and the players said they wanted to hire some heavy support. Though it wasn't actually a pair of assault rifles, it was a pair of Enfield AS-7 shotguns.

[Cantankerous]

Alot? Like more then 95%? No. Not a Taboo. More then 50%? No. If it was really a majority that thought that, it would be a law. It isn't a law, thus it isn't a majority. If it isn't the majority, then it isn't a true Taboo, just something that a few people think of as Taboo, thus falls under the category of 'hated by a few and disliked by some'.

Ok, if you want to get loose with the definition of Taboo, yes, it is a Taboo for some. But I think the OP is asking for Taboos that are basically universal.

You may say alot, but what you mean is "I know a fair number of these people, but I don't even know .1% of the people in the city in which I live."

I think you're forgetting that the US isn't the only nation around. Over 50% Hell yes, in several Asian nations (yes, including China and India) and most of the Middle Eastern nations. Since more of the worlds population lives in these nations than does in the rest of the world combined it might even be said to be more than 50% of the people world wide.

The West isn't the world folks.


Isshia

[hyzmarca]

I've got to agree with Snow Fox here. I think I already said this, but I'll point it out again. A mind control spell to get someone to do something isn't any worse then a ton of other things you could do to them. I mean you could be broke and unemployed, or you could be dead and broke. Personally I'd rather have the air in my lungs.

Well, rape isn't any worse than a ton of stuff that you could do to a person. But though it may not cause any physical damage, it is a severe violation that damages one's sense of security and self-integrity. Turning a person into a meat puppet against their will is the same sort of violation, but even more intimate. For someone to reach into your mind, the fundamental totality of your personal being, and rearrange it to suit his whim. That is going to be traumatic. The bigger and longer manipulations are going to be more traumatic, but even the smallest one is likely shatter the victim's sense of personal integrity. One might know intellectually that there are magicians and BTLs out there who can mess with your mind, but to have it happen to you is a different ball of wax entirely.

If it was really a majority that thought that, it would be a law. It isn't a law, thus it isn't a majority.

Actually, laws do tend to be made by a small handful of elites in high office. The majority has little to do with it.
This is especially true of large governments that control several culturally distinct regions, where the less powerful cultures are generally at the mercy of the mightier ones, but still maintain their own values and taboos.

[sunnyside]

Hey, gimme a break. It was a troll NPC and the players said they wanted to hire some heavy support. Though it wasn't actually a pair of assault rifles, it was a pair of Enfield AS-7 shotguns.

See, that's totally different. Of course we respect the special relationship between shotguns and their owners.