Varied Uses for Minor Talents, 5 BP goes a long way, baby Options

[Ancient History]

A lot of people have complained about the Astral Sight and Spell/Spirit Knack qualities presented in Street Magic - and with good reason. As the weakest magicians in Shadowrun Fourth Edition, these minor magicians face the most stringent restrictions on what skills and foci they must take, not to mention the inability to raise their Magic rating. Still, these Talented individuals can, with the right development and character choices, become viable player characters - or more likely, non-player characters.

Magic is the first and most obvious restriction on these characters, as it limits the Force of any spell cast or spirit conjured (for Spell Knack and Spirit Knack, respectively), the number and total Force of all foci the magician can bind, the maximum number of times the magician can initiate, and how many metamagic techniques she can learn. Beyond this, Magic is the attribute used in most (although not all) magical skill tests. With a default and unraiseable Magic 1, this generally means that a minor magician is restricted to Force 1 or 2 spells and spirits, a single focus (which may be up to Force 5), can initiate once, and may have up to two metamagics - provided the GM allows you to use the optional rule! Another major blow is that if the character takes any augmentation that costs Essence (or loses Essence to foci or drug addiction), they lose their hard-earned magical ability!

While Force 1 spells and spirits (Force 2 if you don't mind overcasting) seems very weak, a character with any skill at all is virtually guaranteed at success casting these spells or summoning these spirits, and can likely take little or no drain. The character might become a one-trick pony, but they should be able to do that trick very well indeed! This limitation also brings forth a minor advantage: unlike most Awakened characters, the Karma demands to excel are much more reasonable, allowing the character to expand in other areas much easier than other magicians. Besides that, the characters can purchase specializations for their skills that reflect what they can do, and I would strongly suggest characters with the Spell/Spirit Knack buy the individual magical skills and specialize rather than buy the group skill - this isn't out of a desire to min/max the character, but to faithfully reflect their focus on their limited abilities. After all, if a character can only use Counterspelling on a Stunball spell, it makes sense they would specialize in countering combat spells! Lacking general access to banishing, minor magicians might be advised to focus on Attacks of Will (Street Magic), possibly augmented by the martial arts bonuses provided in Arsenal.

Initiation and purchasing metamagic are two things I would strongly suggest to any minor magician. Not only are there a great variety of metamagics to choose from, but it represents pretty much the only way to expand the scope of your character's abilities. Indeed, many initiated minor magicians can effectively become aspected metamagicians, that is magicians who specialize in a particular metamagic. While much more limited even than regular aspected magicians. For example, a character with Spell Knack can purchase the Sorcery group, which includes the Ritual Spellcasting skill; Ritual Spellcasting in turn is the background for the Geomancy and Great Ritual metamagics. While a knack magician won't be a legendary geomancer, they can be a very effective one, essentially giving the character the Aspected Domain advanced lifestyle option from Runenrs Companion with little or no cost - for every one of their homes and safehouses. In some cases, ajudication by the GM may be required - for example, the Cleansing metamagic obviously expands on the magician's uses of the Counterspelling Skill, and should probably do so as well with spell knack magicians - even though the quality description normally limits Counterspelling to their particular spell. (Of course, how the character is astrally perceiving or projecting to use the metamagic is another question - presumably deepweed or a magical compound at work.)

With regard to Spell Knack and Spirit Knack, the character needs to choose a tradition - any tradition - to determine what spirit(s) are available to them and what they drain attribute is. If a possession tradition is taken, the character would be advised to invest in some vessels. A character who chooses Spirit Knack (Watcher spirits) and a possession tradition, for example, would be advised to ask the GM to implement the corps cadavre/living doll rule to make the most out of her spirits. Any of these minor magicians could chose an appropriate Mentor Spirit, with their GMs approval as well. This can require a bit of judgment, as in many cases this equates to "All bonus and no downside."

Knack magicians and the Sighted are generally limited in the foci they can bind - no more than one, no more than Force 5. Other than that (and the restriction on weapon foci that applies to those with the Astral Sight quality), the options are open. Many players instictively go for power foci, and this is understandable, although generally unneeded. At the Forces available to them, a character with Magic 1 and Appropriate Magical Skill 5 (Specializtion + 2) will have eight dice to throw at the spell before foci are added. Most spell or spirit foci, while seeimingly natural choices, are even worse - what good is a banishing focus if you can only use Banishing on Spirits of Beasts to begin with? Instead, characters can bind a focus that adds to their character's abilities - a knack magician who can cast a sustained spell might take a sustaining focus or an initiate with Masking might take a masking focus to add the Force of the focus to their Initiate grade. While none of the minor magicians can use the Enchanting skill, they can still use some of the magical goods it creates to good effect - a spell knack magician could use a fetish, and any minor magician can use a talisman or get more use out of a magical compound. Minor magicians can also gather reagents - in fact, spirit knack magicians who use the optional Aid Enchanting rule can become very good gatherers. Minor magicians can also create and maintain mana lodges of any Force, which can be very helpful.

The immediate problem with Spell Knack is the low Force of the spells; this makes it hard to affect unwilling targets and the effects are easily dispelled. This generally limits the spells from being gamebreaking - a Force 2 spell is still a Force 2 spell even if the character has Spellcasting 7 (That Spell +2), Power Focus 5, and +2 Mentor Spirit bonus. More generally, I find that spell knack magicians make excellent contacts and allies - for ritual spellcasting! Spell knack ritual magicians aren't great leaders, but they are terrific support with their high Ritual Spellcasting ratings - provided they know the spell in question. Indeed, an NPC with the Great Ritual metamagic can be a real asset, even when conducting geomantic rituals. Theoretically, a group of initiate spell knack magicians who know the same spell and the Great Ritual metamagic could get together to cast a spell with a Force higher than 2 - which might make for an interesting group of NPCs to throw at a runner group.

When the Spirit Knack comes to mind, my first thought tends to the Ally Conjuration metamagic. While a major investment in time and Karma, the benefits of an ally spirit to a minor magician are tremendous, not least of which is that for an appropriate investment of Karma that spirit will scale with the character - she can even increase the spirit's Force above twice her Magic rating! However, knack magicians worried about losing their precious ally spirit would do well to invest in a very high Binding Skill. Since a magician's limit on bound spirits is based on their Charisma, it generally behooves spirit knack magicians to focus on this attribute.

Characters with Astral Sight have a number of options to chose from, metamagic-wise, but generally lack the outlet of a spell or spirit in the same way as knack magicians. Besides Assensing and Astral Combat, however, these characters can also take advantage of the new rules for magical medicine introduced in Augmentation.

Spirit Pacts are highly tempting to all minor magicians, and with good reason: they can give some of the abilities that such groggies typically lack, including access to the Astral and metaplanes. Binding a free spirit isn't easy, even for a spirit knack magician - the GMs adjudication is called for here, as to whether the spirit knack magician can actually use their Conjuring group skills for a free spirit not of their persuasion, though of course if they happen to match there is no conflict - and the end result tends to be a slightly more powerful (if dangerous) version of the ally spirit situation mentioned above.

Of course, no discussion of minor magicians would be complete without that very rare occurance: the character that has two Knacks (spell and spirit), or a Knack and Astral Sight, or even two Knacks and Astral Sight. The reason this is earnestly advised against is that the character is paying out for what amounts to very little extra ability due to the lapping restrictions. A character with two Knacks (or a Knack and Astral Sight, etc.) is still limited to Magic 1, with all those inherent restrictions. In addition, the character suddenly has to divide their Karma between developing more skills! If a character does pick all three, they're essentially paying three-quarters of the cost to play an extremely gimped full magician - which they can do if the gamemaster approves, but as that point I would suggest the player look at playing an aspected magician.

One thing few GMs consider is NPC minor magicians who follow the dark paths. Such characters make very good low-level threats on their own, but become progressively more difficult the more assistance they receive. A spell knack magician with the Sacrificing metamagic, for example, could be little more than a mad serial killer - but the same character becomes much more dangerous as a vice president of Aztechnology with access to all the resources of that position and with the hidden reserve of magical powers available when cornered. By the same token, a spirit knack insect magician is a weird and different sort of adversary than the insect magicians most characters are used to opposing.

Okay, that's all I can think of for now.

[Riley37]

Thanks AH, interesting extrapolations from RAW.

Although it's rare as a PC choice, the Shadowrun world as most writers conceive it includes people with knacks, and an appropriate scattering of NPCs should have knacks. (Just as there should be elves with CHA 4, even though they're generally not PCs.)

What spells are most useful at low Force? Some Divinations, eg Mindlink/Mindnet; Detect Enemies, even without detail, is better than no warning at all; Levitation at Force 2 is still darn useful (it beats some Adept powers such as Walk Without Trace and Wall Running); Magic Fingers (enough to direct a grenade, pick the guard's pocket and float the key through the bars, etc.); what else?

A minor mage might be jealous of full mages, and turn to dark paths out of spite. A backstory motivation is generally better storytelling than "Oh, one day she decided to go Twisted just 'cause she was bored".

[Muspellsheimr]

While such characters could make interesting NPCs, those qualities, as written, are worthless to any player character due to the restrictions they place - any augmentations, & you loose your abilities, & you can never become "more" awakened. The only player characters that could ever receive any real benefit from them are the awakened critters (Infected, Pixies, etc.), because they would then, at least, be able to increase their Magic. Still, Astral Sight is strictly worse than Adept, meaning Knacks are the only ones that would be taken. Then, while not strictly worse than Mystic Adept due to the lower cost, for an additional 5 Build Points, a character may obtain the quality without any restrictions - they may learn any spell they please, can summon & bind 5 different types of spirits, & may increase their Magic at will.

I fail to see why they where ever included as Player Character options as written - they are beyond worthless, & until changed, nothing you can say will be capable of changing that fact.

In conclusion, while they have potential as Non-Player options, they cannot, in their current form, be used with any benefit by players. As such, I suggest the following House-Rules alterations.

Astral Sight
Cost: 5 BP
Characters with this quality have the ability to view the astral plane. Such characters gain the Astral Perception ability, & may learn the Assensing & Astral Combat skills. The character does not gain a Magic attribute, and as such, this ability is not lost by anything that would reduce Magic.

Characters with this quality may not take the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, Technomancer, Spell/Spirit Knack, Latent Technomancer, or Latent Awakening qualities.


Spell/Spirit Knack
Cost: 5 BP
Characters with this quality have limited magical ability. Such characters select a single category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion, or Manipulation), & gain a Magic attribute of 1, which may then be later increased. Such characters may learn skills from the Sorcery & Conjuring skill groups, may learn & cast spells of their chosen category, & may conjure spirits of the appropriate category (as determined by their tradition). The Banishing, Binding, & Counterspelling skills may only be used on/against spells & spirits of the appropriate category.

Characters with this quality may not take the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, Technomancer, Astral Sight, Latent Technomancer, or Latent Awakening qualities.

[Stahlseele]

astral sight would then become almost mandatory to any otherwise strictly mundane character O.o
you can never see enough . . especially when in Shadowrun, there are thigns you CAN unsee . .
astral perception gets rid of most visibility modifiers, so shooting would become easy as hell . .
if you become dual natured due to this, your average samurai will smack around spirits of force 8 with their bare hands
and if i remember correctly, such things as wards will shatter too . .

[Muspellsheimr]

-2 to all Physical actions while astrally perceiving. This means that the total modifiers for firing might be slightly lower than those of various vision enhancements, at the cost of -2 to dodging as well. Not a trade-off I would usually take.

Being dual natured does not allow your natural attacks to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons, & attacking non-materializing spirits requires them to remain in melee range and an investment in Astral Combat. Finally, that is the only way I can think of to make it viable compared to simply taking Adept with Astral Perception.

[Stahlseele]

yes, of course, but if you are a sammy with astral perception, are you going to pass up on the opportunity to show up the adept in his specialty? *g*
if i were a sam, i would SO take astral combat with that . . because spirits are my one main problem most of the time <.< . .

[crizh]

Why would you take Astral Sight, ever?

For the same price you could take Adept and spend your one free Power Point on Astral Perception.

[Stahlseele]

'cause with his house rules, it'd be more fun for me, as i love cyber/bio and don't deal well with the magicrap . . so any way to defend MYSELF from magical means without having to rely on magicunts is very much appreciated ^^

[Ancient History]

There's already ways to do that without relying on those incredibly sketchy and not-thought-out-enough house rules.

[Stahlseele]

yes, and if i get to play, we usually play SR3 anyway so all of this is purely academic.
and if we were playing 4th, we'd probably not do that too, because even in my eyes, that makes my good samurai too strong

[crizh]

There's already ways to do that without relying on those incredibly sketchy and not-thought-out-enough house rules.

That's a bit harsh.

Perhaps you could be specific about what you dislike about them?

[Muspellsheimr]

There's already ways to do that without relying on those incredibly sketchy and not-thought-out-enough house rules.

Please explain. Is this a balance concern? I completely lost faith in your ability to balance anything with Runners Companion. Are they not polished enough? This was simply a quick type-up on changes I have thought about for a while.

As for Astral Sight, as proposed, it is not a must have, but is a viable option for mundane characters - I would only take it if it was character concept, or I just happened to have 5 spare points not better spent elsewhere (unlikely). I do not see how it can be unbalancing - as I pointed out before, astrally perceiving does not grant you the ability to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons. With proper vision enhancements, it would at most reduce attack modifiers from -3 to -2, at the cost of -2 to everything else physical (including dodging). If you wish to engage astral entities, you must still invest in Astral Combat, & hope they stay within melee range. Compared to the Adept quality, it has the advantage of not being affected by Essence loss, & the disadvantage of never being able to Initiate or gain other magical abilities.

The only other viable option for this quality would be to simply remove it entirely.


Spell/Spirit Knack, as proposed, is 5 BP less than Mystic Adept (or half the cost, if you want), for a full 80% reduction in ability, not including the potential Adept powers. Compared to a full magician, 66% reduction in cost, but in addition to the previously mentioned 80% reduction in ability, you also do not gain Astral Perception or Projection. Honestly, as I have it, it should be renamed to Aspected Magician (insert type), to go along with much needed changes to how that quality works.


As these qualities are RAW, they are beyond crap. Even if you allow them to increase their Magic attribute, they are still beyond crap. Unless you can provide some hard mathematical evidence or play test data of how these would be overpowering as is, refrain from bashing them, & maybe even post a few suggestions on how to improve the "polish", or alternate ways of making them viable.

[Odsh]

Magic is the first and most obvious restriction on these characters, as it limits the Force of any spell cast or spirit conjured (for Spell Knack and Spirit Knack, respectively), the number and total Force of all foci the magician can bind,...

Could someone please tell me where to find the part in bold in the sourcebooks?

[Muspellsheimr]

The only location I have been able to locate that particular rule is p.85 & 88, SR4. As it is not listed anywhere else, such as the Focus section of The Awakened World chapter, I have always assumed it was a character-creation only limitation. Because you cannot obtain a Force 6 focus during character creation, there really is no point to it.

[Ancient History]

Hey, I didn't write the damn things. And yes, your house rules are crap, for many reasons. We're not going to go into your language, which is deplorable, but let's just look at these things:

Astral Sight
Cost: 5 BP
Characters with this quality have the ability to view the astral plane. Such characters gain the Astral Perception ability, & may learn the Assensing & Astral Combat skills. The character does not gain a Magic attribute, and as such, this ability is not lost by anything that would reduce Magic.

Characters with this quality may not take the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, Technomancer, Spell/Spirit Knack, Latent Technomancer, or Latent Awakening qualities.

Let's see...no Magic! Well, that flies in the face of every precedent we've ever tried to set, including the logical framework of the world. Oh, and it means that you're SOL on any Assensing or Astral Combat test that requires Magic - there's more than a few of them - not to mention it means you can't make any use of foci whatsoever or learn any metamagics. Yep, what a great quality, you're paying just as much and getting even less - all so your street sam can peek at the astral and see exactly how worthless they are at astral combat and assensing. Better hope nobody is foolish enough to count these guys as magicians, or else they're in real trouble.

Spell/Spirit Knack
Cost: 5 BP
Characters with this quality have limited magical ability. Such characters select a single category of spells (Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion, or Manipulation), & gain a Magic attribute of 1, which may then be later increased. Such characters may learn skills from the Sorcery & Conjuring skill groups, may learn & cast spells of their chosen category, & may conjure spirits of the appropriate category (as determined by their tradition). The Banishing, Binding, & Counterspelling skills may only be used on/against spells & spirits of the appropriate category.

Characters with this quality may not take the Adept, Magician, Mystic Adept, Technomancer, Astral Sight, Latent Technomancer, or Latent Awakening qualities.

Oooh, a single category of spells. Not at all moving away from the original intent there. You're basically looking at retarded aspected conjurers and sorcerers, not people with a 'knack.' Of course, the language is such that it is ambiguous as to whether the character with spell knack gets access to Conjuring and vice versa, but we'll chalk that up to your language issues and torrid love affair with the ampersand. The volumes you leave unspoken are what really makes this a shite write-up, however: can you initiate? Are you treated as a magician? Can you use Enchanting? Et bloody cetera.

<pant, pant> Seriously Muspellsheimr. You have been, and continue to be, one of the most incredibly belligerent posters here and you have nowhere to talk. You and HappyDaze are like Dumpshock's official hecklers at this point.

[Muspellsheimr]

I'll give you that having no Magic rating for Astral Sight deviates from the standard. However, the whole fucking point is that you can perceive - no metamagics makes sense. Also, do you mind pointing me to a single Assensing or Astral Combat test that uses Magic, outside of the forbidden metamagics? You also seem to imply the quality is crap - it is not a great quality, but it is viable, & a shitlode better than RAW.


The entire fucking point of my alteration to Spell/Spirit Knack is to make it usable as a Player Character option - reduce the cost on the RAW version to 1, allow me to increase my Magic, and I might take it. Spell/Spirit Knack is okay for making a few NPC's interesting, but nothing more than that. As for what skills it allows you to take, it says quite specifically. As for the poor writeup, I already told you that this was basically a sketch. Yes, they would be able to initiate, & that would be included in any final writeup I do. No, they do not have any other magical abilities (perception & projection).

If you want to play a character with only one spell, or only able to conjure a single spirit, go right ahead. Nothing in my writeup prevents you from doing so. Even take the Magician quality if you want - nothing about that requires you to learn more than one spell.

As for me being warlike, I do not go out looking for fights. If someone posts something I disagree with, I will disagree & state why - what the fuck else should I do? If someone argues against one of my posts, I will support it until they provide something other than opinion on why I am wrong, in which case I will take it into consideration, altering my position as needed, & possibly even conceding the point. The only time I recall ever before having come close to an attack is once pointing out that I never thought I would be agreeing with Cain. That is a lot more than I can say about you.


You seem like a good writer - something I am not particularly skilled at. Your ability to judge game balance, however, is shit, & I can say with certainty I am significantly better at it. I certainly do not expect to obtain balanced results every time, first try, but I frequently come a lot closer than a significant portion of you published work. Because I do not believe I am perfect, I occasionally post idea's here for opinions, playtest them when possible, and adjust them as needed. You endlessly argue the perfect quality of your work even when proven wrong *cough*Karmagen*cough*


Now, once again, show me mathmatically how these are unbalanced, or provide playtest data. I am honestly expecting them to be slightly underpowered; they still beat the shit out of the RAW you are supporting.

[HappyDaze]

You and HappyDaze are like Dumpshock's official hecklers at this point.

Wow. I hadn't even posted on this topic, and I really don't have much interest in doing so, but...

Eh, nevermind. Ass Hole Ancient History can have this one. I doubt he's really qualified to declare 'official hecklers', but his work could only benefit from listening to the criticisms of others.

[Ancient History]

Your stuff doesn't work as written. They are not clearly and concise. And yeah, I do think it important that you mention initiation with the Astral Sight knack, because the skill is restricted to magicians for a reason. Magic is restricted to magicians for a reason. Essence reduces Magic for a reason. The balance of the game, which you feel you have such a high understanding of, is based on understanding how these things work and how players abuse them. Trust me when I say I don't care for the Knacks and Astral Sight quality as written either, but they do at least function and make sense within the fictional and rules context of the game.

Has it ever occurred to you to think about why things work out the way they do? Have you never considered why all qualities are multiples of 5, for example? Did you ever compare your quality to other qualities of the same cost to judge how powerful they are relative to each other?

You endlessly argue the perfect quality of your work even when proven wrong *cough*Karmagen*cough*

I didn't say Karmagen was perfect. You do blow the whole thing out of proportion, though. Its not a big deal, and there were reasons for it, and it works. You don't like it, and I accept that you don't like it, but it doesn't make the rules shit.

[Ol' Scratch]

Like I said in a previous thread, I'd prefer the qualities if the Magic 1 rating they grant was independant of your Essence at the time the quality was gained. If taken during character creation, it's applied at the very end. Meaning even if you have Essence 0.94, you still get a Magic of 1. Then from that point on, any change in your Essence affects your Magic normally. Thus if you later get a Datajack and your Essence drops to 0.84, bam, you just lost a point of Magic.

Hell, you could even put a limit to how far it stretches, such as "up to a minimum Essence of 3." Just give them at least some room to be viable and balanced characters.

Considering it's only a single ability, I really don't see the harm in doing it that way. Sure, if you sit down and crunch numbers you can whine and complain about how it's "unfair" to full magicians because you gain the equivalence of X amount of free Karma/BP. But considering it's not even really comparable to magicians, I find that to be a pretty moot point to make. Doubly so considering that if they want to make that ability even remotely decent, they're going to have to invest a lot of Karma to see it happen.

It's current incarnation simply doesn't make much sense as player character quality. Yes, lots of NPCs might have the quality as described, but they're not PCs. PCs and NPCs have a few separate rules for a reason.

[Ancient History]

That's mostly do to the hangover of calculating Magic loss after final Essence at chargen. Not a problem when everybody starts at Magic 6, but leads to the situation of buying more points of Magic just to lose them in 4th edition.

[Muspellsheimr]

SQUIRRELS!

[KCKitsune]

Trust me when I say I don't care for the Knacks and Astral Sight quality as written either, but they do at least function and make sense within the fictional and rules context of the game.

Actually, AH, neither of these abilities work at all. The only thing that I can see being used is Spirit Knack (Watcher) and that would be by a hacker who is COMPLETELY unaugmented. Sure you can have a viable hacker without any 'ware... but lets be honest, he's sucking in the hacking arena. He has 3 IP if he goes hot-sim and other hackers can have FIVE! Also if that hacker is in the field then he's almost worthless as he's slow as hell.

Now let's deal with Spell Knack. A Force 2 Mana spell is a joke... a Force 2 Physical Spell is an episode of criminal stupidity. Let's not even talk counterspelling.

The Knacks were, I think, put in so that GM's could have something for NPC's. A normal character is going to spend his 5 pts on something else... like Ambidexterity or Will to Live (level 1). Those are MUCH more useful and are not impacted by 'Ware.

[toturi]

Actually, AH, neither of these abilities work at all. The only thing that I can see being used is Spirit Knack (Watcher) and that would be by a hacker who is COMPLETELY unaugmented. Sure you can have a viable hacker without any 'ware... but lets be honest, he's sucking in the hacking arena. He has 3 IP if he goes hot-sim and other hackers can have FIVE! Also if that hacker is in the field then he's almost worthless as he's slow as hell.

Now let's deal with Spell Knack. A Force 2 Mana spell is a joke... a Force 2 Physical Spell is an episode of criminal stupidity. Let's not even talk counterspelling.

The Knacks were, I think, put in so that GM's could have something for NPC's. A normal character is going to spend his 5 pts on something else... like Ambidexterity or Will to Live (level 1). Those are MUCH more useful and are not impacted by 'Ware.

I think that is precisely AH's point though. They do work, just not well. Just like using a multitool instead of a tool box. A character with such Qualities may suck at what he does, but at least he works at his low level. He may be looking at Threshold 1 or people with low resistance pools but he works. Force 1 or 2 spells are weak but they can work within their capabilities. The only time when they don't is when you try to make them work beyond their capabilities - which can happen with regular Awakened as well.

[HappyDaze]

They do work, just not well.

They work about as well as wiping your ass using a pair of chopsticks to manipulate toilet paper.

[toturi]

They work about as well as wiping your ass using a pair of chopsticks to manipulate toilet paper.

So? At least you can wipe your ass. The end effect may be such that you might as well not have done it but you have the choice to do so. And if your chopsticks-fu is strong, there'd be no problem.