Armor and how to get it (Sky High!), Getting 100+ armor bonus consistantly for fun and profit Options

[Ragewind]

Also I remember you talking about how the Horseman cant get 20 armor since its not a drone even with rigger adaption citing the example of drone descriptions having a body from 1-4, in that same books (Arsenal) where you quoted from there is a drone with a body of 6...in the drone listings. Think about that

[Ragewind]

HA! I forgot about the Special Armor Modification in addition to the Faraday Cage for another 6 dice to resist that Electricity zzap. Meaning its 50-62 possible dice. As a nice bonus it also protects the passenger too!

EDIT: I am not saying the above character has this, but while I am at it I might as well go for broke, since magic seems to be the most applicable threat to the Mech or Mage then you can replace Physical Barrier with Mana Barrier to garner +6 dice (on average with a max of 12) to resist Magic in any form. Although you DO lose 6 Armor for the Mech (not included in the previous posts numbers) and 6 armor for the character (he wont care with 120+ armor) then it does seem a logical replacement.

EDIT 2: I don't remember what it does but I would've sworn there was a spell called "Mana Static" might be useful in fending off enemy mages.

EDIT 3: Remember if you don't drop the character on the first shot then you will be dropped on his. In a fight where characters are about equal initiative is very important, although I don't think the above character could really grab more than 10ish dice. Thankfully 9/10 times it won't matter since he can resist any damage heading his way. Although that 10th time comes down to who rolls better.

[Cain]

I'm not saying my defense is perfect, but it is certinaly MUCH harder to bypass than you seem to think. In most games have a dice pool of 10+ is exceptional and tailoring a character simply to beat another is bad form and would encounter problems in most games with any situation that is outside his intended role.

I really have to doubt this. I'm running two games right now, one on Rpol.net and one in RL. In both those games, 10+ dice is typical for their primary dice pools, 15+ is common for combat and social. In addition, I've played in and ran many Shadowrun Missions games; once again, 10+ dice pools is par for the course.

At any event, the 8 Edge character I'd need to "beat" your combination is already in use, long before this thread came into being. One or two Longshot tests, and your cocooned mage is history.

[Ragewind]

At any event, the 8 Edge character I'd need to "beat" your combination is already in use, long before this thread came into being. One or two Longshot tests, and your cocooned mage is history.

This is true, although that is assuming you can see him to "Call a shot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

EDIT: This again brings to brings to mind Camo Spell, Shadow, and Camo items. Assuming it works the way I think it does means I could be standing by myself in a field with a ball of night roating around me, and you would never be able to spot me.

Or I suppose a Imp Invis spell would work just as good.

Remember its extremely important that
A) You surprise him so he can't dodge and drop him in one shot (Possibly going agian if you win intative) or risk return fire that could drop your character.

If I get to shoot you first not all of the called shots in the world could save you.

Edit 2: DOH Dead mans Trigger, well then assuming I survive then I suppose I still come out on top.

[Cain]

This is true, although that is assuming you can see him to "Call a shot" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

EDIT: This again brings to brings to mind Camo Spell, Shadow, and Camo items. Assuming it works the way I think it does means I could be standing by myself in a field with a ball of night roating around me, and you would never be able to spot me.

Or I suppose a Imp Invis spell would work just as good.

You don't need to see him to call a shot. That's what the Blind Fire penalty represents. Also, you need to use intuition instead of Quickness to figure out where he's at. None of this is a major problem, though; since you're going to be at -100 or so to call the shot, more penalties aren't going to be a big deal.

[Ragewind]

You don't need to see him to call a shot. That's what the Blind Fire penalty represents. Also, you need to use intuition instead of Quickness to figure out where he's at. None of this is a major problem, though; since you're going to be at -100 or so to call the shot, more penalties aren't going to be a big deal.

If the character is "Hiding" then you need to make a perception test or you cannot fire on him.

Blind Fire also assumes you can either A) Kinda Maybe make him out, or B) Pinpoint his location (I.E> what square he is in) If you don't meet these requirements then you cannot delcare a Blind Fire action.

[damaleon]

Okay, I'm late to the discussion and wondering about/noticed some things.

1. the the armor is limited by availability at character generation, if you don't get the Restricted Gear quaility.

2. I was wondering about the car mods:

Modifications to the car (slot cost):
Walker Mode (2)
2 Full Arms (4, 2 each)
Armor (1) - Rating 12 (limit at chargen)
Personal Armor (2) - Rating 6 (limit at chargen)
Rigger Adaptation (1)
Standard Cocoon (1)

Is this about how you put it together?

That takes 11 slots out of 14. If you want weapon hardpoints, that's extra, as is life support if you want the vehicle to have a chemical seal (costs 3 slots, meaning no hardpoints). That wouldn't stop you from using the full arms to use weapons though.

I also don't see anything stating the Cocoon is a sealed system, so without a chemical seal somewhere, you're still vulnerable to gas attacks. I'm assuming you get that from the body armor modifications.

3. That leaves you with the cars basic Rating 1 Sensors, so your rigger has Perception + 1 to roll on tests. Assuming you'll have to see someone before you can target them, that could be rather difficult. That would require modifications as well, and I haven't looked into how that would affect slot requirements.

4. If you use a faraday cage (limited to Rating 3 at generation), you can't see anything from inside the cocoon unless they breach the cage to connect to sensors, making it innefective. You could retract them inside the cage for temorary protection though. The cage also become useless if the car takes a certain amount of damage.

5. Spells:
Reinforce - only works if the mage can cast at a force equal to the surface area of the car in square meters. If you consider the car a flat box, 2m by 3m by 1.5m, that requires a Force 27 spell. That's one heck of a mage contact willing to cast and sustain the spell.

Fix - limited to (Force X hits) kilograms or less in mass. Good luck with that. You have to touch it too, so you're not in a cocoon.

Armor - works, add (hits) in Ballistic and Impact armor. It does say "worn" but I'm not going to argue that point.

Counterspelling - If it's not you, you have to have LOS on it (no cocoon).

6. If you're jumped into the drone, you dodge spells (indirect combat ones at least) with Reaction + Handling, so if you have a Reaction of zero, it's just handling. As far as I can tell, that's only 3 dice (2 for the car, +1 for the walker mode). Add any counterspelling on top of that, and you can still only expect 4-6 hits that have to be overcome.

7. Say a mage cast a lighting bolt at the car/drone and barely manages to hit with at force 6 casting, that's 7DV. Without any extra protection, the car/drone resists with Body + 1/2 Impact Armor (16 dice at generation, 20 max, no magic) (like the drone from the example on SR4 p196). With auto-hits for resist that's 2-3DV getting through per casting. If your hot simmed for an extra pass, you have to resist half that damage (SR4 p. 239). If the mage overcasts at force 12, that's 13DV to resist. You would need about 40 dice for the car/drone to avoid damage completely. A full faraday cage adds 6 dice to resistance tests (I think). The best I see right now is 26 dice without magical protection to resist.


If this holds up, it seems a no brainer to attack the car, then peal them out of the cocoon. If you can hide from the cars sensors with physical spells, all the better.

[Ragewind]

1) Not to my knowledge last I recall the Avil rating (even for 20 armor) should be 12 or less, something like a 6 I think. Even the personal armor I think was a 10. I think it had a scaling modifier of 1 per point, so Rating 10 Personal armor would be 10 Aval.

2) That the bare bones yes, the one I built had a slightly different setup. personally love the arms to death, mechs are just grad A awesome in my book. Although with that in mind you don't actually NEED them if you just want a armored body to cast spells from.

3) I >believe < the car in question has a sensor of 3? Regardless of the actual rating on the stock car you can of course upgrade it. There is also a Improved sensor package with lots of neat features you could use.

4) I am not actually sure about the rating on the faraday cage as that was something Neraph pointed out, Ill take a look at it. Even with the cage active there are no wireless signals leaving the vehicle, which incidentally does nothing to say stuff like Cameras. It is also redundant on the fact that ether A) with the cage active there would be nothing keeping you from bouncing signals around the inside the mech (I recall Paint that did something similar) or B) the fact that the mech is Hardwired to prevent Hacking. I don't remember the action required to turn on/off the cage but if you really want to use wireless for some reason then you could turn it on and probably do something else in the same turn.

5) Umm a Force 12 Reinforce spell should equal somewhere around 129 feet which is more than enough to cover the car, although my math could be incorrect

6) As to fix Assuming you cast it at force 12 and scored 12 hits (not including edge or whatever) then you could repair something up to 317 pounds? Obviously the car would weigh more than that or would it? No weights are listed in the books nor do we have a exact layout of building materials. I have heard stories about cars being made of some sort of plastic mix that a human can lift on one end. So it wouldn't be to far of a leap to think something simlier could be built in the far future of 2070. However I have nothing but conjecture and this would have to be discussed with the GM. EDIT: Since this spell may inadequate for our needs you could use the spell creation rules to creation the same spell that can fix a larger volume possibly for a higher drain value

7) The handling should be something like +3 for the car, +1 Walker Mode, for a base of +4. There are other ways I belive there are two positive qualities than can grab another +2 and another add on to the mech for another 1, for a total of 7. Although the mech up till now has none of these so you are stuck at +4.

8 ) From what I understand (and also addressed in the FAQ) is once a mage declares a target to protect via counter-spelling he no longer has to even be around it. If you really want to be able to see I figure you can use the Myopic cable system placed around the mech so you can look around and cast spells at outside targets. This would also allow you to counter-spell the moment a mage casts if you don't want to passively do it.

9) I believe I did the math in previous posts but lets try again. 32-44 armor divided by 2 = 16-22, Adding 3? for the cage and 6 for non-conductivity comes to 25-31. IIRC the vehicle also gets to add body to the resist test bringing the total to 35-41. Then tack on 16 Counter-spelling for a total of 51-59 Assuming you Passed the Object Resistance of 4 easily beatable by a dice pool of 35+. Also FYI you cannot actually damage the mech with a electricity effect as they deal stun damage. The most you can do is try and short out the OS which as stated you cannot do. For added benifet you could have a mana barrier up ( average of 6) for another 6 dice to ignore the spell.

[Ragewind]

That takes 11 slots out of 14. If you want weapon hardpoints, that's extra, as is life support if you want the vehicle to have a chemical seal (costs 3 slots, meaning no hardpoints). That wouldn't stop you from using the full arms to use weapons though.

IIRC the arms can also fit Cyberware augmentations, such as STR enhancements (Armor enhancements (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif) ) and yes even Cyber Weapons. Although The Mech could probably fit Assault rifles or possibly even LMG's depending on the size.

I also believed you talked about dodging Indirect Combat spells, which you would actually get Response + Handling for a (assuming 6 response) 10.

Interestingly enough if someone would help me remember, I think if you can add all the 13+ gear you want to the Mech as long as the HIGHEST one is 20 or below, that way you could have like 10 13-20 items and only need one restricted gear Positive Quality. I seem to recall it working this way but I don't know for sure.

[Cain]

If the character is "Hiding" then you need to make a perception test or you cannot fire on him.

Blind Fire also assumes you can either A) Kinda Maybe make him out, or B) Pinpoint his location (I.E> what square he is in) If you don't meet these requirements then you cannot delcare a Blind Fire action.

The perception test is trivial. Since he's at zero quickness dice, he can't make an opposed stealth test to hide his location.

Blind Fire assumes that you can make a lucky guess as to where he's at; after all, you're using Intuition instead of Quickness. You're relying on guesswork, rather than direct eyesight. Under normal circumstances, this would be a problem; it's just that we're going so far into Longshot territory, penalties cease to matter.

[damaleon]

Counterspelling only helps in the opposed test, not in damage soaking if it actually hits, so your still limited to Body + 1/2 Impact Armor value there, base and magical. It also states on page 175 that you must remain in the mages LOS for counterspelling to work.

As far as barriers go, I see to many possible arguments there (keeping the barriers anchor steady in a walking mecha, whether it can cover the outside of the vehicle and still be considered immobile). For that reason I'm going to ingore their possiblility for protection of the car/drone.

My bad on the armor availability, I accidentally read the Threshold for installing it instead on those two.

If you read "Jumping Into Drones" on SR4 p.239, it says when you have jumped into a drone, you use the rigger's attributes and skills and specifically states that you use the riggers initiative. That either means Reation + Handling or Reaction + Dogde. If your not jumped in, it's Pilot + Handling. Technically, that could also be read as using your own Body to resist instead of the drones.
This is also the roll that counterspelling counts on.
Personally I would use the lower of your attributes verses the cars, same for skills, but that is just me. Nothing in the RAW to support it. (It would mean Reaction limited by Response + Dodge limited by Handling though)

The copy of Arsenal I have lists the car as +2 Handling and Sensors 1 (Pilot 1 and Body 10 as well). It's late and I don't want to read that much right now, so I can take that as a Handling 4 in walker mode.

Since vehicle mods are supposedly after market, I would only allow 1 item to be installed over 12 Availability without paying for Restricted Gear multiple times, but that's me. I would say that's a GMs call. I could see taking the highest availability piece over 12 and adding a +2 or +3 to that for every other piece over 12, before having to get it twice.

You can also ignore the Faraday Cage by using a fire spell, then only Fire Resistane armor mod would come into play (as far as I know).

[Fuchs]

Actually, since this "mech" is only 3 to 4 meters tall, including the limbs and all, you do not need any guesses to spot the pilot - there simply is not much space in the vehicle for the pilot to plant his cocoon in.

[Neraph]

Damaleon, since our rigger in question is in VR, the drone would be using his Matrix Initiative, not his regular initiative. Reaction has no effect on Matrix Initiative.

[Tarantula]

Wow, I missed a lot. Starting from the top...

1) It will indeed block the spell, there are two things you need to consider. First being LOS do you have it? A indirect combat spell does not need this. LOE Do you have it>? Even as stated in the FAQ you need to have Line of Effect in order to damage a target. Meaning any intervening barriers will have to be shot through in order to harm something behind them, incidentally I am not talking "Cover" their are separate rules governing how cover interacts with Indirect combat spells, no if LOE is blocked your boned.

First, soundwave easily goes through all barriers. He doesn't have to target you specifically, just drop it on the mech. If the modified DV of the attack exceeds the modified armor of the barrier it goes through. Since soundwave modifies armor to 0, as long as its doing damage, it goes through the barrier.

2) No you dont get armor but Hush, Silence and even Sound Dampeners add to it. So out of a total of 10-12 possible spells known (5-6 skill) we have seen...

Armor
Fix
Reinforce
Physical Barrier
... I think that's it? ( I might have talked about 1-2 more spells)

So its perfectly fine to cast a 1-2 meter hush spell on the character getting a average of 6 hits, then again tacking on Hush, then having Sound Dampers (rating 3 I think?>) for a grand total of 15-27 extra dice vs Soundwave. This of course is assuming the character in question can even hear! From the way "Sound" spells work its implied that being deaf grants immunity. Heck there might even be a item somewhere that blocks all sound. Oh I forgot Add on response dice for even more fun.

How many spells are you gonna be casting? Really, before I take into account any more spells, please, tell me how you are having them be sustained, and how you are casting them at the forces you are.

3) I doubt this character (with the capabilities he/she possesses) would sustain his own spells, that's what Spirits are for. Even if he took the burden on himself the -X (where X is a number) does not apply to resistance tests. Hence the point is moot. Incidentally I thought living focus worked differently, blew my mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

Yes, but I also doubt he could cast them.

4)I don't see where you are getting these numbers, as I explained in my post (assuming you get all 12) you would have...

12 hits - 4 for object resistance = 8
8- 4 (counterspelling, Buying not rolling) = 4

Which then means my mech would have 38-50 dice to beat 4 successes...lol
In other words I don't think there should be a problem, I also hope you haven't been thinking the electricity damage hurts the mech since ya know...its immune to stun damage. Giving you 12 hits is also extremely generous, I have seen someone toll 23 dice and barely achieve 6 hits. Then again in a debate such as this MAX numbers are the easiest way to go.

Your numbers are wrong. Indirect combat spells are treated as a ranged test. So spellcasting+magic vs your response to dodge. That is the attack test. Then, if that hits, you get body + 1/2 armor + counterspelling to stage damage down. Also, lightning bolt is Physical damage explicitly. As far as 12 hits, I guarantee you I can make a mage that will have 36 dice for throwing a soundwave.

5) I assume you are asking me for a direct quote..but for what? Remember saying "It doesn't say no" is not a valid argument. I (on my end) provided plenty of probable reasons why the armor doesn't have to be entirely made of metal, heck for all we know that 20 points of armor is gained through the judicious use of pillows.

My point was, it does say it is, and it doesn't say it isn't, so its up to the GM to decide.

6) I'm not saying you CAN'T add edge, I am saying it wont Matter. Its simply impossible (with the offered numbers) to generate enough hits to zzap my mech and turn him off. Even in the above example lets assume you have a edge of 6 and I will go ahead and add that to the previous total of 4 to create a nice round number 10. Out of 44+ dice I can buy 11, meaning the attack still does nothing. Also you need to keep in mind I am simply BuYing my hits and not rolling anything, you would have to roll thereby having a much larger probability of failure. Since Shadowrun needs 5+ our of a six sided dice you have a 2 out of 6 chance to succeed. If you have 6 edge dice added to your previous total fo 12 net hts (sorry 8 because of object resistance) that then ='s 14. Meaning on average you have a total of 14 -4 = 10 , still even worse than just giving you the 6 dice. Even giving you re-rolls on a 6 it still comes out to a number between 10-11.

Your numbers are wrong, because the attack test is against your response. Also, just because there is a threshold to affect the vehicle, doesn't mean those hits don't count. Against your response of 6, you can resonably get 2 hits. I can get 12. Thats 10 net hits. You need at minimum 30 dice to consistantly avoid that. Half armor for the mech = 10. + 10 special armor mod. +6 faraday cage = 26. Not enough. If I use edge, I can get even more than 12 hits, guaranteeing it will shut down. Oh, and your commlink still will shutdown no matter what, which will still dumpshock you, as well as make the vehicle revert to its pilot.

7) I just thought of something, using Chameleon and Shadow (and that camo armor mod...whatever it was called) all clever like, we can inflict a 16-28 penalty to perception tests. Meaning unless you could somehow generate hits to see the mech it is IMMUNE to all forms of direct targeting. Interesting...I will have to look into this.

So, theres a giant black ball walking around? I might not see you in it, but chances are, soundwaving the big black ball of sounds like death isn't out of the question.

Breaking into 2 posts.

[Tarantula]

Also I remember you talking about how the Horseman cant get 20 armor since its not a drone even with rigger adaption citing the example of drone descriptions having a body from 1-4, in that same books (Arsenal) where you quoted from there is a drone with a body of 6...in the drone listings. Think about that

Arsenal is allowed to make its own exceptions. It is the rulebook. You cannot arbitrarily declare it a drone, when it doesn't agree with what the rulebook says.

HA! I forgot about the Special Armor Modification in addition to the Faraday Cage for another 6 dice to resist that Electricity zzap. Meaning its 50-62 possible dice. As a nice bonus it also protects the passenger too!

EDIT: I am not saying the above character has this, but while I am at it I might as well go for broke, since magic seems to be the most applicable threat to the Mech or Mage then you can replace Physical Barrier with Mana Barrier to garner +6 dice (on average with a max of 12) to resist Magic in any form. Although you DO lose 6 Armor for the Mech (not included in the previous posts numbers) and 6 armor for the character (he wont care with 120+ armor) then it does seem a logical replacement.

EDIT 2: I don't remember what it does but I would've sworn there was a spell called "Mana Static" might be useful in fending off enemy mages.

Start throwing around mana statics, and all your magic will poof. In fact, since you can just arbitrarily have any number of sustained force 12 spells, I might as well too. I get a rating 12 mana static, that is cast then dropped, nuking all of your spells, then I soundwave you. You will die.

EDIT 3: Remember if you don't drop the character on the first shot then you will be dropped on his. In a fight where characters are about equal initiative is very important, although I don't think the above character could really grab more than 10ish dice. Thankfully 9/10 times it won't matter since he can resist any damage heading his way. Although that 10th time comes down to who rolls better.

Oh? How are you going to hit me? With your inability to perceive outside of your faraday cage. Or even see me on the sensors? What kind of skills does this guy have where he can cast force 12 spells (and hand them off to spirits or whatever for sustaining) while also having a respectable perception pool to see what he is trying to kill while in his mech. BTW its -3 dice to spot metahumans with sensors alone. I think you fail.

1) Not to my knowledge last I recall the Avil rating (even for 20 armor) should be 12 or less, something like a 6 I think. Even the personal armor I think was a 10. I think it had a scaling modifier of 1 per point, so Rating 10 Personal armor would be 10 Aval.

20 armor is 6R, no biggy.

2) That the bare bones yes, the one I built had a slightly different setup. personally love the arms to death, mechs are just grad A awesome in my book. Although with that in mind you don't actually NEED them if you just want a armored body to cast spells from.

Except you can't cast spells from it. Unless you get fibreoptics, and aren't rigging it. And even then, you're at -3 for the fibreoptic system at a minimum.

3) I >believe < the car in question has a sensor of 3? Regardless of the actual rating on the stock car you can of course upgrade it. There is also a Improved sensor package with lots of neat features you could use.

3 - 3 for metahuman = 0. You can't find me. Since having force 12 spells sustained is de facto in this situation. My mage has imp invis 12. Good luck spotting that with your sensors.

Or 3 posts it would seem.

[Tarantula]

4) I am not actually sure about the rating on the faraday cage as that was something Neraph pointed out, Ill take a look at it. Even with the cage active there are no wireless signals leaving the vehicle, which incidentally does nothing to say stuff like Cameras. It is also redundant on the fact that ether A) with the cage active there would be nothing keeping you from bouncing signals around the inside the mech (I recall Paint that did something similar) or B) the fact that the mech is Hardwired to prevent Hacking. I don't remember the action required to turn on/off the cage but if you really want to use wireless for some reason then you could turn it on and probably do something else in the same turn.

It says you can't perceive past it with sensors. Cameras are a sensor. So, you can't see.

5) Umm a Force 12 Reinforce spell should equal somewhere around 129 feet which is more than enough to cover the car, although my math could be incorrect

Force 12 is 12 square meters. Surface area on your car is going to be 4m high x2m across or so. x4 sides with those dimentions. 4x2=8x4=32. Plus 2 sides at 2x2 for 8 more. You'd need a force 40.

6) As to fix Assuming you cast it at force 12 and scored 12 hits (not including edge or whatever) then you could repair something up to 317 pounds? Obviously the car would weigh more than that or would it? No weights are listed in the books nor do we have a exact layout of building materials. I have heard stories about cars being made of some sort of plastic mix that a human can lift on one end. So it wouldn't be to far of a leap to think something simlier could be built in the far future of 2070. However I have nothing but conjecture and this would have to be discussed with the GM. EDIT: Since this spell may inadequate for our needs you could use the spell creation rules to creation the same spell that can fix a larger volume possibly for a higher drain value

Yeah, fix is worthless for you. By the same token, I could use the spell creation rules to make a spell that just turns off electronics in an area. Turn off your vehicle, and there we go.

7) The handling should be something like +3 for the car, +1 Walker Mode, for a base of +4. There are other ways I belive there are two positive qualities than can grab another +2 and another add on to the mech for another 1, for a total of 7. Although the mech up till now has none of these so you are stuck at +4.

And in a building you'd be in tight terrain. So 4 threshold for all tests. Good luck.

8 ) From what I understand (and also addressed in the FAQ) is once a mage declares a target to protect via counter-spelling he no longer has to even be around it. If you really want to be able to see I figure you can use the Myopic cable system placed around the mech so you can look around and cast spells at outside targets. This would also allow you to counter-spell the moment a mage casts if you don't want to passively do it.

No, you don't need to maintain LOS to sustain a spell once its been cast. Counterspelling ends the second you can't see them. If you're using shadow/camo magic/etc you won't be able to see your mech to counterspell it. If you use fibre you're at a -3 penalty because of the fibre. Oh, but you're rigging it, so you're at -6 while in VR too.

9) I believe I did the math in previous posts but lets try again. 32-44 armor divided by 2 = 16-22, Adding 3? for the cage and 6 for non-conductivity comes to 25-31. IIRC the vehicle also gets to add body to the resist test bringing the total to 35-41. Then tack on 16 Counter-spelling for a total of 51-59 Assuming you Passed the Object Resistance of 4 easily beatable by a dice pool of 35+. Also FYI you cannot actually damage the mech with a electricity effect as they deal stun damage. The most you can do is try and short out the OS which as stated you cannot do. For added benifet you could have a mana barrier up ( average of 6) for another 6 dice to ignore the spell.

Your armor is bad. The smart mage attacking you mana statics first, to get rid of your spells. Now, armor is 20/2 = 10. + 16 for faraday cage & special armor = 26 armor. +10 body = 36. +Counterspelling at -9 because of you in VR and using fibre for 5 more dice = 41. Lightning bolt does P damage, so it does damage it. So, force 12 with 12 hits = 24 DV. 41 dice = 13 damage soaked on average. you still take 11 DV. 10 body = 10 damage track, mech is damaged and cannot function.



That cover everything? Good.

[cryptoknight]

4)I don't see where you are getting these numbers, as I explained in my post (assuming you get all 12) you would have...

12 hits - 4 for object resistance = 8
8- 4 (counterspelling, Buying not rolling) = 4

Ummm you can't buy anything in combat.

If the gamemaster allows it, a character may trade in 4
dice from her dice pool in exchange for an automatic hit.
Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an
exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the
situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character
might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the
gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying
hits.

Since the bad consequences of the spell hurting you count as bad consequences... you can't buy jack.

[Tarantula]

Ummm you can't buy anything in combat.

Since the bad consequences of the spell hurting you count as bad consequences... you can't buy jack.

Arguably, it does advise the GM to use the buying hits for vehicle armor to speed up combat, since theres so much dice in play there.
SR4, 158, "Since vehicle armor is often much higher than ordinary character armor, gamemasters should remember to use the trade-in rule for large dice pools (4 dice for 1 hit, see Buying Hits, p. 55)."

[cryptoknight]

Well that's a nice set of self-contradictory rules... *glares at the developers again*

Seeing as using armor to avoid damage falls under the

"If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits."

rule... to then suggest using the rule that says that you should never buy hits for damage tests just plain head to the division by zero error.

[Tarantula]

I got bored, just a quick throwing together I got this...
Elf
Vodoo tradition (just because having it possess your vehicle is even more funny, but norse for less powergamy goodness)

aptitude spellcasting
magician
sun mentor spirit, +2 combat +2 guardian spirits
restricted gear spellcasting focus

8 charisma
5 willpower
6 magic
7 spellcasting (combat)
4 summoning (guardian)
4 binding (guardian)

spellcasting focus 5
summoning focus guardian 3
binding focus guardian 3

soundwave

Buy binding materials.

Bind 8 force 7 guardian spirits. (His summoning/binding pool is 6 magic + 2 mentors spirit + 4 skill + 2 specialization + 3 focus = 17 dice, average 3 hits on summoning, 1 on binding). Drain taken can be rested off in between, and even at the worst, 14 dice = 8P drain. So he'll live.

Once hes got a nice spirit posse going, go out and look for contracts to kill people who run around in stupidly armored vehicles. Head out, and cast a nice force 12 soundwave on said vehicle. Dicepool for taht is 7 spellcasting + 2 spec + 2 mentor spirit + 5 focus + 56 spirits aid sorcery + 1-6 edge to exceed the hit cap. 73-78 dice. average of 24-26 successes. Anyone inside the vehicles die. Vehicles can be taken by mage and sold.

Note: This costs him 28k in binding materials per cast. Of course, he can still throw out soundwaves at 16 dice on his own, which is enough to routinely hit 5 successes, making a force 6 soundwave do 11S. Putting the victims at his mercy. Drain on this is 11P. But with his 13 resist pool, he can expect to take only 7P, keeping him alive and ready to collect his payment.



Alternately, since he is voodoo, he could just have one of them possess your vehicle (14 dice vs threshold 4, should make it) and then wait for you to get out/starve to death.

[Ragewind]

Okay Whew man, I have a whole heck of a lot to say back but I have a time limit and most likley wont be back until tomorrow. Just as a heads up everything in your previous posts ( the one with bullet points) I thankfully have a answer that trumps them all, however your most recent post is just so...lol, that I must say something while I have the time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Pay close attention...don't miss it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

1) Soundwave Deals Stun Damage

2) It DOES ignore armor

3) It DOESN'T ignore Structure and it DOESN'T Ignore Barriers.

I.E> I am immune to soundwave since Objects (Rigger cocoon, The CAR) are (get this) Immune to Stun Damage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Meaning your soundwave spell cannot bypass the barriers in front of me so I cannot take damage, this of course is true no matter how many successes you get or however high the force of the spell is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Oh incidentally, even if you possess said vehicle I can just cast some sort of damaging mana based spell (Vehicle is immune, Spirit is not) or cast some other spell like Control Thoughts. I still have 4-5 spell slots open to cherry pick spells to protect me. Once the spirit is gone I can blow your mage away. Oh...Don't forget the mana barrier that I have going, the spirit might not be able to force its way through...meaning your dead...OR I can just Ward my mech...Yea...I like that one too. Oh Yes I almost forgot (lol the answers just keep coming) I could simply banish your spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif)

[Tarantula]

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) No, it doesn't, but the requirement to bypass barriers is to have a damage value higher than the armor value, which, as #2 says, is 0. Since it has a positive DV, it can hit through barriers.

You are not immune to soundwave, though the intervening vehicle won't take any damage. Interestingly enough, barriers DO take damage from stun, so your rigger cocoon will most likely be destroyed as well. But the vehicle will be fine.

Instead of possessing the vehicle, just possess you, have you get out, and stuck your head in a bucket for a couple hours.

[Ragewind]

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) No, it doesn't, but the requirement to bypass barriers is to have a damage value higher than the armor value, which, as #2 says, is 0. Since it has a positive DV, it can hit through barriers.

You are not immune to soundwave, though the intervening vehicle won't take any damage. Interestingly enough, barriers DO take damage from stun, so your rigger cocoon will most likely be destroyed as well. But the vehicle will be fine.

Instead of possessing the vehicle, just possess you, have you get out, and stuck your head in a bucket for a couple hours.

How do you propose ignoring the armor equates to having LOE. You are not "shooting through a barrier" as that would be silly. You cannot deal stun damage to vehicles and therefore cannot delete the structure rating. Shooting through barriers is not applicable because A) You are not using a weapon, and by weapon the game means a gun/sword (Something with a AP value). Secondly you cannot "Blind Fire" with a Indirect Combat spell as they follow their own rules nothing more. You need to read the next paragraph about Destroying Barriers. By your reasoning a Fireball cast inside of a room would "Leak" through all openings into the surrounding terrain leaving the walls in a pristine (if hot) condition. No Tarantula I know you want it to work, I know you REALLY want it to work but you need to reduce the barriers structure rating down to 0 or you cannot damage the person behind the barrier

Incidentally you cannot posses me anymore than you could posses the vehicle behind a Ward/Barrier. At least not before I could fill you full of lead.

[Tarantula]

Yes, I am shooting through a barrier. Vehicles do not have a structure rating. I will do no damage to the vehicle. Shooting through a barrier is applicable, because 1) indirect combat spells are treated as a ranged attack, and thus, are able to shoot through a barrier, and 2) they do have an ap value, it just happens that the ap for soundwave is infinite. You can blind fire an indirect combat spell, because, as i said, they are treated as a ranged attack. They do not follow their own rules... they follow the ranged combat rules. I do not need to worry about destroying a barrier, but even so, as I said, the rigger cocoon will be destroyed by the soundwave. Yes, a fireball cast inside of a room, if its area was larger than the room, could possibly effect things outside of it. Of course, fireball only halves the armor of the barrier, so it would take a higher force one to do that. No one said shooting through a barrier would leave it pristine.

Yes, my spirits can possess you, or merely break your ward/barrier and then possess you. And have one of them possess me so that your guns bounce off.

[Ragewind]

Yes, I am shooting through a barrier. Vehicles do not have a structure rating. I will do no damage to the vehicle. Shooting through a barrier is applicable, because 1) indirect combat spells are treated as a ranged attack, and thus, are able to shoot through a barrier, and 2) they do have an ap value, it just happens that the ap for soundwave is infinite. You can blind fire an indirect combat spell, because, as i said, they are treated as a ranged attack. They do not follow their own rules... they follow the ranged combat rules. I do not need to worry about destroying a barrier, but even so, as I said, the rigger cocoon will be destroyed by the soundwave. Yes, a fireball cast inside of a room, if its area was larger than the room, could possibly effect things outside of it. Of course, fireball only halves the armor of the barrier, so it would take a higher force one to do that. No one said shooting through a barrier would leave it pristine.

Yes, my spirits can possess you, or merely break your ward/barrier and then possess you. And have one of them possess me so that your guns bounce off.

Wow..just WOW, ummm I don't know what exactly to say to that. Infinity? Just...No....

Umm anyway I find it interesting that you can blind-fire with a spell not because its treated as a ranged attack, but because it requires a (Ranged Weapon Skill) + Intuition (instead of Agility) skill roll. If you can explain how you can do that with Sorcery+Magic then I (and I believe everyone here) would very much like to know.

Incidently Soundwave cannot Ever destroy a object/Barrier/Car/Window/Tissue Paper because objects are immune to stun damage. No matter what you do Soundwave can never damage any Non-Living item. This of course includes the cocoon

Also I am not saying you can't posses my mech/me, I am saying it wont matter as you could never do it fast enough before I shot you to death.

This is all of course ASSUMING you know I am in the mech, for all anyone knows its a drone