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#126
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Immoral Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 ![]() |
This is just silly. How many spells do you think you can sustain?
As for the Indirect Combat Spell, it is indeed treated as a Ranged Combat attack. There must be LOS to the epicenter/apex of the spell, but no LOS is needed to affect all the targets in the area of effect. From the Shadowrun FAQ ... QUOTE (SR4 FAQ) When casting an Indirect Combat spell, do you need to see the target? Or can you cast at a target completely behind cover since they use ranged combat rules?
You do need the see the primary target of the spell. However, as noted in the errata, Indirect Combat spells will affect other targets that are unseen by the caster as long as they are caught within the spell's area of effect. Note that the same ruling for grenades applies to Indirect Combat spells cast "at the ground" -- if the attempt is to catch targets in the spell's effect radius, treat it as an Opposed Test, no matter where the spell is actually aimed. |
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#127
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
Wow..just WOW, ummm I don't know what exactly to say to that. Infinity? Just...No.... Umm anyway I find it interesting that you can blind-fire with a spell not because its treated as a ranged attack, but because it requires a (Ranged Weapon Skill) + Intuition (instead of Agility) skill roll. If you can explain how you can do that with Sorcery+Magic then I (and I believe everyone here) would very much like to know. Incidently Soundwave cannot Ever destroy a object/Barrier/Car/Window/Tissue Paper because objects are immune to stun damage. No matter what you do Soundwave can never damage any Non-Living item. This of course includes the cocoon Also I am not saying you can't posses my mech/me, I am saying it wont matter as you could never do it fast enough before I shot you to death. This is all of course ASSUMING you know I am in the mech, for all anyone knows its a drone Well, it makes the modified armor 0, which effectively is infinite ap. Yes, it can. You can punch a barrier to destroy it. Punching does stun damage. Ergo, barriers are vulnerable to stun damage. Vehicles are not. You can never harm a vehicle by punching it. (Without anything to make your punch to P anyway). Yes, I could, I have a spirit possess me first, so you can't shoot me to death, then I have one possess the drone, since it goes off astral initiative, chances are it'll go first. Oh, and once you manabolt that one, I'll have one possess you, and that'll be that. |
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#128
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Well I count Hush, Armor, Reinforce (or whatever).... No other spells come to mind. That's 3, making a -6 penalty (-3 if we Psyche). Still within the realm of Sustainability.
I do not believe the Soundwave spell functions as you believe it does, due to some confusion with barriers and areas of effect. I think a Manaball would be a lot more reasonable. Barring even that, Pulse the sucker. Spells aside, have we at least determined that his armor stacks properly? Because that is the point of this whole thread. |
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#129
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
I don't believe it has been stressed enough that NO ONE KNOWS A PERSON IS IN THE MECH!
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#130
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
That aside, the mech is also still vulnerable to gas grenades, radiation damage, and super-damage.
For instance, take the vehicle mounted Gauss rifle and give it the full-auto firing mode selection. Now, a 400 BP starting character can't afford that, but you know what, if this mech is as hard to kill as it looks, the military might get the call, and they'd probably have something like that. Besides, who even said that this mech is a bad guy? For all anyone here knows, he could have that water cannon vehicle mounted weapon and call himself a "Vigilante Firefighter". Killing this guy could be a disservice to the society. Also, this vehicle only has a strength of like 10. Collapse a building on him. He won't take damage, but he's not going anywhere either. This is you people (in the box). Come outside and play. |
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#131
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
Well, it makes the modified armor 0, which effectively is infinite ap. Yes, it can. You can punch a barrier to destroy it. Punching does stun damage. Ergo, barriers are vulnerable to stun damage. Vehicles are not. You can never harm a vehicle by punching it. (Without anything to make your punch to P anyway). Yes, I could, I have a spirit possess me first, so you can't shoot me to death, then I have one possess the drone, since it goes off astral initiative, chances are it'll go first. Oh, and once you manabolt that one, I'll have one possess you, and that'll be that. Lets assume a force 12 spriit posseses you and gives you Imumminty to Normal weapons (hardened armor 12), meaning I need to beat 12.... A Minigun with Ex Explosives rounds is 24P BASE, + Skill hits. Your mage would be a pool of red blood and gore after my first round of shooting. No, Modified armor 0 is not AP. AP is a plus or minus to the armor rating , Elemental spells simply modify a armor rating. I can see what your going for but its fundamentally flawed. Its interesting that you say that, punching through a barrier when I get back home I will take a look at that, and also include my list of answers to your questions. you still haven't answered how you could Blind Fire with a spell. EDIT: Also, and this is intresting, because the rigger cocoon takes up a modifacation slot it "Becomes" a part of the vehicle. So in this case it is "The vehicle" and "A barrier" |
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#132
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
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#133
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
We all know that shouldn't work.
Hell, it was used in 10 murders, they paid me what it's worth to take it! Anyways. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to say that the stun damage an unarmed attack deals to the barrier is an exemption to the rule that stun does not affect objects, rather than the rule itself? Otherwise, why would they say that stun damage does not affect objects? |
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#134
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
Well I count Hush, Armor, Reinforce (or whatever).... No other spells come to mind. That's 3, making a -6 penalty (-3 if we Psyche). Still within the realm of Sustainability. I do not believe the Soundwave spell functions as you believe it does, due to some confusion with barriers and areas of effect. I think a Manaball would be a lot more reasonable. Barring even that, Pulse the sucker. Spells aside, have we at least determined that his armor stacks properly? Because that is the point of this whole thread. Hush, Armor, Reinforce (which wouldn't work) physical camo, shadow, mana barrier, physical barrier.... I think there were a few others mentioned too. Soundwave does function the way it does. I'll run through it point by point. It negates all armor. In order to hit something behind a barrier, you must do DV > armor of the barrier. To hit someone with an indirect combat spell, you do not need LOS to them, merely LOS to the center of the affected area, and for them to be within that spherical area. Can I see a point that is less than 12 meters from all areas of the mech? Yes? Great, then I can cast it, and the mech and everything within will be hit by the spell (if it bypasses the barriers, which it does automatically since it reduces armor to 0). Pulse? Oh no, you turned off his radio, even though its already enclosed in the faraday cage. Great job... does nothing to him. At all. As far as the stacking, yes, vehicle armor + personal armor + worn armor + spells will stack when being attacked. Given that its been noted that we don't know this walking car has a person inside it, and that it would be a blindfire attack to shoot him, I doubt that will happen, and the vehicle will get attacked instead. I don't believe it has been stressed enough that NO ONE KNOWS A PERSON IS IN THE MECH! Right, which is why I said a spirit could possess it, then when my spirit is disrupted, I could reasonably assume the mech had a passenger, and nuke it. Or you know, the fact that its a car, and not a drone, typically means its got a driver. That aside, the mech is also still vulnerable to gas grenades, radiation damage, and super-damage. For instance, take the vehicle mounted Gauss rifle and give it the full-auto firing mode selection. Now, a 400 BP starting character can't afford that, but you know what, if this mech is as hard to kill as it looks, the military might get the call, and they'd probably have something like that. Besides, who even said that this mech is a bad guy? For all anyone here knows, he could have that water cannon vehicle mounted weapon and call himself a "Vigilante Firefighter". Killing this guy could be a disservice to the society. Also, this vehicle only has a strength of like 10. Collapse a building on him. He won't take damage, but he's not going anywhere either. This is you people (in the box). Come outside and play. He has the room to throw in an enviroseal on the mech. So gas won't work. As far as a vehicle mounted gauss rifle? That'd work. And probably destroy him in one shot to boot. Of course, saying "the military can kill him" is hardly thinking outside the box. Chargen legal, buy a GE Vanquisher Heavy Autocannon with restricted gear, load it with AV rounds (another restricted gear) and blow his ass up. Vehicle has 20 armor, it has -12 AP. Do a narrow burst and hit him for 21P. He won't be able to soak it (10 body + 8 armor). Boom. Guess what happens to the mage inside? |
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#135
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
Lets assume a force 12 spriit posseses you and gives you Imumminty to Normal weapons (hardened armor 12), meaning I need to beat 12.... A Minigun with Ex Explosives rounds is 24P BASE, + Skill hits. Your mage would be a pool of red blood and gore after my first round of shooting. No, Modified armor 0 is not AP. AP is a plus or minus to the armor rating , Elemental spells simply modify a armor rating. I can see what your going for but its fundamentally flawed. Its interesting that you say that, punching through a barrier when I get back home I will take a look at that, and also include my list of answers to your questions. you still haven't answered how you could Blind Fire with a spell. EDIT: Also, and this is intresting, because the rigger cocoon takes up a modifacation slot it "Becomes" a part of the vehicle. So in this case it is "The vehicle" and "A barrier" Has to beat it before full auto is taken into account. A minigun (assuming the GE vindicator minigun) with ex ex is 7P. Which is a far cry less than 24. BTW, ItNW is twice the magic rating, so even with your bad math on the minigun, you still don't exceed it with 24P and I would take no damage. You use the ranged combat modifiers for casting indirect combat spells. One of those modifiers is blind fire, which is a -6 penalty. The magic rules say that it is a spellcasting + magic test still, but using ranged modifiers, so they overrule that the blindfire causes you to use int + ranged weapon skill. As far as the rigger cocoon, yes and no. It specifically has a structure and barrier rating, so it would be up to the GM how to treat it. Either way, vehicle combat rules in SR4 also say that full auto attacks and area attacks hit both vehicle and passengers. Soundwave is an area attack, thus it hits both. (Even if ineffectual on the vehicle). |
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#136
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
Anyways. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to say that the stun damage an unarmed attack deals to the barrier is an exemption to the rule that stun does not affect objects, rather than the rule itself? Otherwise, why would they say that stun damage does not affect objects? Quote me where it says stun damage does not affect objects. The reason it does not affect vehicles, is because it states specifically that VEHICLES do not suffer from stun damage. |
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#137
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Grand Master of Run-Fu ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 ![]() |
Even if he can't see you, he can still make an attack; he's just using Intuition instead of Quickness at -6 for blind fire. Of course, since he doesn't use Quickness at all for indirect spells, there would be no penalty.
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#138
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
FYI, Immunity to Normal Weapons works like Hardened Armor, which requires modified DV to exceed the rating, not base DV.
Also, the Pulse spell is not targeting his cameras or sensors, it's targeting his mech. Since his mech's engine is not optical, or hell the joints aren't optical, poof goes the mecha with 4+ successes. As for the Rigger cocoon in the vehicle... Guess what? That Vehicle now also has a structure rating, and is treated as a barrier! No GM required! |
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#139
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
Alright these are out of order FYI its late and I don't feel like rearranging them.
1) Object resistance is not discounted from the total DV of a spell. You need NET hits above the 4, there is even a little excerpt detailing how this works on page 174. For a quick example Force 5 spell, 4 hits on vehicle = 5 damage to vehicle, Force 5 spell, 3 hits on vehicle = no damage to vehicle. 2) The riggers cocoon so far is not sealed so mainting LOS would not be hard, you can get creative in this area, something like periscope or whatever. Even while your "jumped" into the mech you ARE the mech and see through its "eyes". It would be incredibly easy to maintain LOS to it when your looking at "your hand" "leg" etc etc. 3) All spells are cast at force 6 4) I never once said we were in a building, although I could go in one if needed. Being jacked into my mech it drops the threshold by 1 for all vehicle tests for a new total of 3 need hits. We are at 12+ dice so this is a non-issue 5) Fix is not worthless, it MIGHT be depending on how heavy the car is. Since we do not KNOW how heavy it is, this is left up to conjecture. 6) 1 Square Meter is Equal to 10.7 Square feet (This is Cubic Feet) Go look at one of your 6 sided dice. Just with 1 or 2 Square Meter available we can cover the entire car AND THEN SOME, the spell works differently than what you think, it is Force x Hits. So if I cast it at force 12 with 12 hits that 24 Square Meters. IE 240+ Square feet that's large enough to cover most apartments. Using my own car as a example (as the car I am using is a Sports Car) a 1995 Camero has these dimensions Length 186.2 inches Height 53.0 inches Width 79.6 inches Meaning the car is roughly 15 feet long, 4 and some change feet tall, and 6 and some change feet wide. 12-13 square feet is more than enough to encompass the car. I am not sure what sort of crazy math you are using but 24 square meters (max) is excessive and more than I will ever need, 7) Thats nice that cameras are listed as sensors, however the faraday cage only affects things that rely on wireless signals. Having multiple Hardwired cameras and other misc sensors we can easily keep a eye on whats going on around us. 8 ) I can cast and "Rig" during the same turn as there is a positive quality that makes it a free action to jump in or out. 9) I believe if you cast mana static it is beneficial to you. I could be wrong seeing as how I dont even know what it does. 10) Hush, Silence are both cast at force 6, although looking at the drain we could cast them higher. Also there is nothing stopping us from Casting Silence 4-5 times and added all the +dice together, 5 x 6 hits = 30 dice alone to resist soundwave. 11) I can certainly have some elementals to sustain my spells, not very hard I can cast each spell at force 1 +Edge and stick them into a Rating 1 sustaining Foci I can maintain the spells myself using Pshcye for -1 per spell 12) Trying to "spot" someone via sensors with a perception + whatever else only matters if my target is activaly trying to hide from me. Otherwise it is automatic, oh btw, casting spells or shooting at me means your not trying to hide. 13) The rules don't care how much wiggle room I have in my car, It only checks for 2 things... 1) Do you have cover? and 2) Are you being observed. The answer to both of these questions is a resounding NO. I may have a huge penalty to infiltration tests but Cain has already provided the answer. By using Longshot with 4 edge I can buy one success and which the Camo/Shadow + whatever you are at - 16+ dice to see me, meaning its a automatic failure. 14) By your own argument that drone with a 6 body cannot be a drone. There is no disclaimer saying this one and only drone breaks the normal rules like the simsense booster does. Want to know why? Because that rule doesnt exisit, that table listing body from 1 to 4 is there to help you get a grasp on the Size of the drone. The simple act of giving something a control rig turns it into a drone, go read the Control Rig description in Arsenal. 15) How can you attack me in a big black ball? You cannot declare the Shadow spell to be a object so it is invalid for targetting purposes, and you cannot target the ground around me since it is covered by my spell. Unless the AOE of your spell is larger than mine you cannot hurt me. I can also "See" myself while inside the spell as it only applies a penalty for the outside looking in. 16) There is a spell that shuts down all electronics..called Pulse, you wont need to "go create your own spell" 17) and dude I am sorry but you cannot Blind Fire with a indirect spell, you are only allowed to use Sorcery + Magic when casting your spell. The Firearms skill and Intuition or agility (it doesn't matter which) are a invalid choice for you. The rules don't magically change to accommodate since you want to use Blindfire, you also don't "change the skill" when a new situation arises. This is the formula for a spellcast, in the front of the magic section 1) Use Sorcery + magic +Any other applicable modifiers 2) Net hits + Force of spell = damage done to Target(s) 3) Resist drain There is no "hidden" step for you and no extra dice to roll. Being treated as a ranged attack allows the victims a chance to dodge out of the way since it is "Splash" damage. No more no less 18) No Cain, you cannot target me with a blindfire unless you can somehow "Make me out" the blind fire rules are very clear on this, you also cannot call shot me for the same reasons, and as mentioned above if you cannot even Perceive me there is no middle ground. As the main book it self says "If enough hits are not scored on the opposed test, the attack automatically fails" |
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#140
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
No Tarantula No, please tell me you have actually read the rules you are trying to use
We don't have to use the Vindicator , we can use that other one that's 6p and 12R, the way it works is 6 base, +1 Ex, +14 Full auto = 21 (so my quick numbers were slightly off) 21 DV typically kills most people and to make matters worse we add on Net hits on top, we can assume a average of 5 hits (assuming a 20 dice pool) for a total of 26 Dv, you also take -9 to dodge due to bursting. Don't like the Minigun? Full Auto Mp Ares = 15 DV + Hits with -Half Impact...your still dead Don't like that either? How about my mech HITS you in the face, 10/2 = 5 dv +4 for a sword/axe whatever + Hits Looking at around a 15ish DV still more than Enough to beat your 12 hardened armor. Or we can RAM you for like 20+ DV etc etc etc Your cannon idea works like this 10P at -11 Armor....My armor is 32 BASE and can go HIGHER, meaning I now have a 21 Armor. You Need 12+ hits in order to damage my mech or the shot bounces off of it dealing no damage. 11 Hits is a lot to get and I certainly hope your human mage is not "Carrying" this around with him. He wouldn't even be able to walk around in broad daylight with it and would suffer a -2 or -5 for just trying to shoot it. |
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#141
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
QUOTE BTW, ItNW is twice the magic rating, so even with your bad math on the minigun, you still don't exceed it with 24P and I would take no damage. 21+ hits will beat your hardened armor of 24 |
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#142
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 228 Joined: 27-July 08 Member No.: 16,168 ![]() |
Autofire either adds to damage or reduce dodge, but not both at the same time. Also that +whatever to damage doesn't count to penetrate armor.
First you make a big hole with explosive or some tunneling machine just under the drone. Thump, the drone/car/whatever is down there. Then add some more explosives or flammable material on top and wait for the rigger soup to be ready. Another way would be air-lift the drone and drop it... Btw, if you layer armor and add those together, the whatevers do pierce the armor's top layers making it weaker slowly. Eventually one can gnaw through just about everything, like the grand canyon for example (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Guess couple of spirits could even lift the car and take it to orbit. Doubt that the drone has too many weapons that can shoot straight down, either. One could also first just disarm the drone by blowing away the guns. If they are external, they are easily removable and if they are internal, their limited field of fire is major hindrance. After disarming, sink it to concrete or dip it into molten metal. Distract the thing for a while and have a bigass forklift to take the thing airborne and move it to which ever sounds most tempting. One screwed rigger, I would say. Want some more ways to get rid of your toy? Bunkerbuster rockets would also work... |
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#143
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
FYI, Immunity to Normal Weapons works like Hardened Armor, which requires modified DV to exceed the rating, not base DV. Also, the Pulse spell is not targeting his cameras or sensors, it's targeting his mech. Since his mech's engine is not optical, or hell the joints aren't optical, poof goes the mecha with 4+ successes. As for the Rigger cocoon in the vehicle... Guess what? That Vehicle now also has a structure rating, and is treated as a barrier! No GM required! Yes, modified, but full auto is not part of the modified DV. SR4, 143 "Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating." Pulse... SM, 174, "This spell will erase standard RFID tags and may also affect other non-optical and non-hardened electronic circuit systems within the area of effect. Most electronics in 2070 are optical-based, but the spell might affect some archaic devices and power systems." Won't do shit. At all. As far as the rigger cocoon... Arsenal, 142, "The rigger cocoon has an Armor rating of 20 and a Structure rating of 10 (see Barriers, p. 157, SR4). Increase the rigger’s dice pool by 5 in all cases where the rigger cocoon can help protect him from damage due to crashing or vehicle maneuvers." It does not say "the vehicle gains an armor rating of 20 and structure of 10." It is the cocoon only. Alright these are out of order FYI its late and I don't feel like rearranging them. 1) Object resistance is not discounted from the total DV of a spell. You need NET hits above the 4, there is even a little excerpt detailing how this works on page 174. For a quick example Force 5 spell, 4 hits on vehicle = 5 damage to vehicle, Force 5 spell, 3 hits on vehicle = no damage to vehicle. Looks like you're right on this one, my bad. Though, since the spell won't do any damage to the vehicle anyway, it doesn't really matter. 2) The riggers cocoon so far is not sealed so mainting LOS would not be hard, you can get creative in this area, something like periscope or whatever. Even while your "jumped" into the mech you ARE the mech and see through its "eyes". It would be incredibly easy to maintain LOS to it when your looking at "your hand" "leg" etc etc. Even periscope is -3 for casting through it. If you are jumped in the mech, you do not have LOS as far as anything at all magic is concerned. 3) All spells are cast at force 6 Ok. 4) I never once said we were in a building, although I could go in one if needed. Being jacked into my mech it drops the threshold by 1 for all vehicle tests for a new total of 3 need hits. We are at 12+ dice so this is a non-issue 12+ dice? Really? So you have not only an aptitude on counterspelling, but 6 response and 6 in the vehicle skill? 5) Fix is not worthless, it MIGHT be depending on how heavy the car is. Since we do not KNOW how heavy it is, this is left up to conjecture. Yes, it is. You have 20 points of armor on it. Its too heavy. 6) 1 Square Meter is Equal to 10.7 Square feet (This is Cubic Feet) Go look at one of your 6 sided dice. Just with 1 or 2 Square Meter available we can cover the entire car AND THEN SOME, the spell works differently than what you think, it is Force x Hits. So if I cast it at force 12 with 12 hits that 24 Square Meters. IE 240+ Square feet that's large enough to cover most apartments. Using my own car as a example (as the car I am using is a Sports Car) a 1995 Camero has these dimensions Length 186.2 inches Height 53.0 inches Width 79.6 inches Meaning the car is roughly 15 feet long, 4 and some change feet tall, and 6 and some change feet wide. 12-13 square feet is more than enough to encompass the car. I am not sure what sort of crazy math you are using but 24 square meters (max) is excessive and more than I will ever need, Reinforce, 6 square meters. From http://www.onlineconversion.com/area.htm 6 square meter = 64.583 462 5 square foot Read reinforce again, SM, 174, 'This spell increases the structural integrity of an object no larger than caster’s Magic in square meters." It is not times hits. Now, this is area. Not volume. for simplicity, I calculated the area of your mech as a rectangle, which has 6 sides. If I take each of the 6 sides (we said 4x2x2 meters... there is 4 sides with 4x2 for the height and width. 8x4=32. Then the 2 sides with 2x2, 2x4=8. 32+8=40 square meters. You can cover 6. Doesn't work. For you camero, the area it has, would be 186.2x53=9868.6x4=39474.4 + 53x79.6=4218.8x2=8437.6 total is 47912 square inches. Divide by 12 and its 3992 square feet. Divide by 3 and get 1,330 square yards. Does not work. Stupid too many quote tags. |
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#144
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
7) Thats nice that cameras are listed as sensors, however the faraday cage only affects things that rely on wireless signals. Having multiple Hardwired cameras and other misc sensors we can easily keep a eye on whats going on around us. Read the vehicle mod. Arsenal, 135, "In order to be effective, all electrically sensitive components must be completely contained within the faraday cage and insulated from it. This means that no sensors can extend beyond the cage." No sensors (cameras are a sensor) can extend beyond the cage. You're effectively blind. 8 ) I can cast and "Rig" during the same turn as there is a positive quality that makes it a free action to jump in or out. No, you can't. You could jump out, and then cast. Then the next turn jump in, and then spend a complex/2 simples on driving. But you can not cast and take a vehicle action in the same turn, because casting is a complex action, and rigging is simple/complex depending on what you do. 9) I believe if you cast mana static it is beneficial to you. I could be wrong seeing as how I dont even know what it does. It could be, it would negate most of your spells. It creates a background count equal to the hits gotten on the spellcasting test in its area. This would cause any spells of equal or lesser force to not work, and any spells of greater force to be weakened by its rating. 10) Hush, Silence are both cast at force 6, although looking at the drain we could cast them higher. Also there is nothing stopping us from Casting Silence 4-5 times and added all the +dice together, 5 x 6 hits = 30 dice alone to resist soundwave. Sure, you could cast them, and thats 4-5 more spells you need to have sustained. Not to mention, a single mana static turns them all off. 11) I can certainly have some elementals to sustain my spells, not very hard Really? Cause you have to have the right kind for the spell type, and you'd need to have them bound to have more than one. Oh, but your charisma would have to be high enough to bind that many of them. You need to stat out your super rigger mage. I can cast each spell at force 1 +Edge and stick them into a Rating 1 sustaining Foci I can maintain the spells myself using Pshcye for -1 per spell Sure, do you have a few dozen edge? No? Well then. Sure, you do that. You're still at almost 10 spells now, you'll be worthless in a fight with that kind of penalty. 12) Trying to "spot" someone via sensors with a perception + whatever else only matters if my target is activaly trying to hide from me. Otherwise it is automatic, oh btw, casting spells or shooting at me means your not trying to hide. Guess what, I can use infiltration, that means I'm hiding. I can still too. 13) The rules don't care how much wiggle room I have in my car, It only checks for 2 things... 1) Do you have cover? and 2) Are you being observed. The answer to both of these questions is a resounding NO. I may have a huge penalty to infiltration tests but Cain has already provided the answer. By using Longshot with 4 edge I can buy one success and which the Camo/Shadow + whatever you are at - 16+ dice to see me, meaning its a automatic failure. One success... and just by having contacts with vision enhancement 3, I can buy a hit and see you. Likewise, I can use my own longshot test, and spend edge to get that 1 success needed to see you. Stupid too many quote tags take 2. |
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#145
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
14) By your own argument that drone with a 6 body cannot be a drone. There is no disclaimer saying this one and only drone breaks the normal rules like the simsense booster does. Want to know why? Because that rule doesnt exisit, that table listing body from 1 to 4 is there to help you get a grasp on the Size of the drone. The simple act of giving something a control rig turns it into a drone, go read the Control Rig description in Arsenal. Wrong. The book declares what is a drone and what is not. There are tables that list drones, and tables that list vehicles. If it is not in the drone table, it is not a drone. 15) How can you attack me in a big black ball? You cannot declare the Shadow spell to be a object so it is invalid for targetting purposes, and you cannot target the ground around me since it is covered by my spell. Unless the AOE of your spell is larger than mine you cannot hurt me. I can also "See" myself while inside the spell as it only applies a penalty for the outside looking in. You said spells are cast at force 6. So its a 6 meter black ball. My soundwave is a 12 meter area effect. I can cast it at the edge of the black ball, and hit everything in it. You can not see yourself. Re-read the spell, SR4, 204, "Shadow creates a globe of darkness with a radius equal to the spell’s Force in meters. Every hit imposes a –1 die pool visibility modifier against targets within the area (maximum –6)." Against targets within the area. You're in the area, you're trying to see yourself, it applies to you. 16) There is a spell that shuts down all electronics..called Pulse, you wont need to "go create your own spell" Shuts down old and archaic electronics, most in SR4 are optical and won't be effected. Your drone is one of them. 17) and dude I am sorry but you cannot Blind Fire with a indirect spell, you are only allowed to use Sorcery + Magic when casting your spell. The Firearms skill and Intuition or agility (it doesn't matter which) are a invalid choice for you. The rules don't magically change to accommodate since you want to use Blindfire, you also don't "change the skill" when a new situation arises. This is the formula for a spellcast, in the front of the magic section SR4, 196, "Indirect Combat spells are treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Magic + Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction." By your logic, I can't attack a drone with them, because drones use response to dodge attacks, but the indirect combat section says its against reaction. I am not blind firing. I am attack an area near your black ball of death, and my spell just happens to have enough area of effect to affect you inside of your mech. 1) Use Sorcery + magic +Any other applicable modifiers 2) Net hits + Force of spell = damage done to Target(s) 3) Resist drain There is no "hidden" step for you and no extra dice to roll. Being treated as a ranged attack allows the victims a chance to dodge out of the way since it is "Splash" damage. No more no less SR4, 196, "the caster makes a Magic+ Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction. If the spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor (+ Counterspelling, if available), with each hit reducing the Damage Value." Sorcery + magic + whatever else yes. Target makes reaction check. Net hits + force is damage, resisted with body + half impact + counterspelling. Honestly, read the rule before you just make shit up. Lastly, resist drain. Stupid too many quote tags take 3. |
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#146
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Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 ![]() |
18) No Cain, you cannot target me with a blindfire unless you can somehow "Make me out" the blind fire rules are very clear on this, you also cannot call shot me for the same reasons, and as mentioned above if you cannot even Perceive me there is no middle ground. As the main book it self says "If enough hits are not scored on the opposed test, the attack automatically fails" I don't target you with blindfire. I target a spot next to the black ball. You just are in the area of effect. No Tarantula No, please tell me you have actually read the rules you are trying to use You first. We don't have to use the Vindicator , we can use that other one that's 6p and 12R, the way it works is 6 base, +1 Ex, +14 Full auto = 21 (so my quick numbers were slightly off) 21 DV typically kills most people and to make matters worse we add on Net hits on top, we can assume a average of 5 hits (assuming a 20 dice pool) for a total of 26 Dv, you also take -9 to dodge due to bursting. Only other minigun is the Ares MP-MG, which is 6P and 12F. But I'll assume you're talking about that one. It works is 6base, +1 ex = 7P. + net hits. You say 5, so thats 12P. That is compared against the armor (24) 12<24 so no damage done. If I wasn't possessed, then 12P gets the +9 on top of it to make it 21, and would kill me. Alternately, its 12P, but i get -9 to dodge, which is more in your favor, since that will likely increase your net hits, which do count against getting through the armor. Don't like the Minigun? Full Auto Mp Ares = 15 DV + Hits with -Half Impact...your still dead Don't like that either? How about my mech HITS you in the face, 10/2 = 5 dv +4 for a sword/axe whatever + Hits Looking at around a 15ish DV still more than Enough to beat your 12 hardened armor. Again, my hardened armor is 24. Read the rules. SR4, 288, "A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating� equal to twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated as “hardened� protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically does no damage." 24 Hardened armor, your attacks do nothing. Or we can RAM you for like 20+ DV etc etc etc Assuming you can hit me. Your cannon idea works like this 10P at -11 Armor....My armor is 32 BASE and can go HIGHER, meaning I now have a 21 Armor. You Need 12+ hits in order to damage my mech or the shot bounces off of it dealing no damage. 11 Hits is a lot to get and I certainly hope your human mage is not "Carrying" this around with him. He wouldn't even be able to walk around in broad daylight with it and would suffer a -2 or -5 for just trying to shoot it. Arsenal, 123, "All armor but smart armor is reduced by half against the gauss cannon (before applying the AP modifier)." So, you have 32 or so armor. Drops to 16. Then -12 AP to 4. 4 < its 18P damage, so it will hit you. 21+ hits will beat your hardened armor of 24 Sure, except also realize I have a +12 to my reaction. And I'd be curious to how you plan to get 21+ hits. Before you reply. Please read the relevant rules. I've quoted pretty much all of the ones you didn't bother to read before replying last time. Also, stat your mage out. I guarantee you there is no possible way you can do everything you're saying you can. Go with 1500karma even, You won't be able to pull everything off. Oh, I do like BullZeyes idea. Just a shape asphalt spell. Cast at force 12, move 12 meters of asphalt out from under you, then back on top of you. |
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#147
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Autofire either adds to damage or reduce dodge, but not both at the same time. Also that +whatever to damage doesn't count to penetrate armor. First you make a big hole with explosive or some tunneling machine just under the drone. Thump, the drone/car/whatever is down there. Then add some more explosives or flammable material on top and wait for the rigger soup to be ready. Another way would be air-lift the drone and drop it... Btw, if you layer armor and add those together, the whatevers do pierce the armor's top layers making it weaker slowly. Eventually one can gnaw through just about everything, like the grand canyon for example (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Guess couple of spirits could even lift the car and take it to orbit. Doubt that the drone has too many weapons that can shoot straight down, either. One could also first just disarm the drone by blowing away the guns. If they are external, they are easily removable and if they are internal, their limited field of fire is major hindrance. After disarming, sink it to concrete or dip it into molten metal. Distract the thing for a while and have a bigass forklift to take the thing airborne and move it to which ever sounds most tempting. One screwed rigger, I would say. Want some more ways to get rid of your toy? Bunkerbuster rockets would also work... Spirits can't go into orbit. You also are imagining the mech sitting still. He probably won't want to go into this hole. I don't want to fall into a hole. |
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#148
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Man, Tarantula... Man.
*deep breath* OK! You haev yourself said multiple times that you are not blindfiring with a spell. Therefore, Blindfire rules do not apply. You can't hit him with your AoE. Done. And thank you very much for telling us that Pulse doesn't work. We thought it did. That's one more thing this guy's immune to. On a second reading of Mana Static, it's a permanent spell. So you'll have to sustain it for a while before it comes into affect, meaning we have some time to find you. Also, it affects everyone equally; it is not aspected for the magician casting it. It even says "..., including the caster." (Street Magic, pg. 173). Maybe you have some problems with figuring out how ItNW works. I hope this helps... "This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above),..." (SR4, pg. 288). "If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration),, then it bounces harmlessly off the critter:..." (SR4, pg. 288, emphasis added). That sentence on page 143 only applies to Burst Fire Narrow Bursts. More later, need to regroup my brain. |
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#149
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
Yes, modified, but full auto is not part of the modified DV. SR4, 143 "Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating." That's actually very interesting, I love how just one sentence can mess up a whole idea. However I have some tricks left. 1) We will use any of the 6P LMG's here, using suppressive fire with a Minigun deals 1.5 the base value for a total of 9DV. The rules for suppressive fire says it uses the rules for Wide Bursts and wide bursts do not have the stipulation saying the damage is not used against the armor of the target. So now we have a 9P attack, certainly not enough to damage the hardened armor. So now we use Stick and Shock bullets which do 6S (x1.5 = 9S) and apply HALF impact armor, now we only need 3 successes to equal or exceed your Hardened Armor fo 12, and incidentally you have -14 to dodge. 2) The Ares Mp Laser does 6P, with Full auto Mode we can Wide Burst it to apply a -9 to dodge and -Half your impact = 12. We then need 6 hits to negate the hardened armor. While this one is a little harder to pull off its still enterily within the realm of poosiblity 3) NeuroToxin is a Contact, Ingested vector poison that does 10P of damage and you only get to use a Toxin Resistence test meaning your hardened armor is useless. This can be delivered in a grenade, in those little capsule bullets, or if we are close enough a injector. All three of these ideas can easily drop a 24 hardened armor Pulse... SM, 174, "This spell will erase standard RFID tags and may also affect other non-optical and non-hardened electronic circuit systems within the area of effect. Most electronics in 2070 are optical-based, but the spell might affect some archaic devices and power systems." Won't do shit. At all. Well I am glad to know that, thanks for making this mech much more powerful Even periscope is -3 for casting through it. If you are jumped in the mech, you do not have LOS as far as anything at all magic is concerned. Thats intresting as I don't remeber reading anything about that. I DO remeber a -6 to do anything in the real world..like Look at things, and since the mech isnt trying to hide no test is require (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) 12+ dice? Really? So you have not only an aptitude on counterspelling, but 6 response and 6 in the vehicle skill? Lets see 4(Pilot Anthroform) = 6, Response of 6 can be bought (and upgraded with a response chip to 11 at 20R) +2 for all vehcile tests while being jumped in. So that comes to 19 dice. or -5 for the chip = 14 EDIT: I also forgot my handling of 4, so 23 with the chip or 18 without it. Yes, it is. You have 20 points of armor on it. Its too heavy. Prove it Reinforce, 6 square meters. From http://www.onlineconversion.com/area.htm 6 square meter = 64.583 462 5 square foot Read reinforce again, SM, 174, 'This spell increases the structural integrity of an object no larger than caster’s Magic in square meters." It is not times hits. Now, this is area. Not volume. for simplicity, I calculated the area of your mech as a rectangle, which has 6 sides. If I take each of the 6 sides (we said 4x2x2 meters... there is 4 sides with 4x2 for the height and width. 8x4=32. Then the 2 sides with 2x2, 2x4=8. 32+8=40 square meters. You can cover 6. Doesn't work. For you camero, the area it has, would be 186.2x53=9868.6x4=39474.4 + 53x79.6=4218.8x2=8437.6 total is 47912 square inches. Divide by 12 and its 3992 square feet. Divide by 3 and get 1,330 square yards. Does not work. Ah I apologize was looking at the Fix spell, Thanks for doing some of the work for me, but a car is not a fully fleshed out rectangle, it cannot fill the box so yes I belive the car will fit, although I wont do the math on it now. |
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#150
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 295 Joined: 2-April 07 From: Dallas/Fort Worth Megaplex Member No.: 11,361 ![]() |
QUOTE Read the vehicle mod. Arsenal, 135, "In order to be effective, all electrically sensitive components must be completely contained within the faraday cage and insulated from it. This means that no sensors can extend beyond the cage." No sensors (cameras are a sensor) can extend beyond the cage. You're effectively blind. Incidentally I seem to recall a specific example of a person bypassing a Faraday cage with a Fiber Optic cable linked up to some equipment outside of it. IIRC then that means I am right. QUOTE No, you can't. You could jump out, and then cast. Then the next turn jump in, and then spend a complex/2 simple on driving. But you can not cast and take a vehicle action in the same turn, because casting is a complex action, and rigging is simple/complex depending on what you do. Prove it, If Casting is a Complex and Jumping into/out is a free. Then that means I can do it in the same pass/turn QUOTE It could be, it would negate most of your spells. It creates a background count equal to the hits gotten on the spellcasting test in its area. This would cause any spells of equal or lesser force to not work, and any spells of greater force to be weakened by its rating. If that's true then that means it hurts you too. All of a sudden this spell sucks hard and is not feasibly used. QUOTE Sure, you could cast them, and that's 4-5 more spells you need to have sustained. Not to mention, a single mana static turns them all off. I think I wouldn't mind a penalty of -4 to keep my character alive...of course assuming they aren't in Foci. Do you even read my posts. Incidentally Manastatic would Gimp you too QUOTE Really? Cause you have to have the right kind for the spell type, and you'd need to have them bound to have more than one. Oh, but your charisma would have to be high enough to bind that many of them. You need to stat out your super rigger mage. Honestly I am not sure what the charisma would be, I left it all open for people who want to use the idea. Although since we only got like 3-4 spells that need to be sustained then we would only need a charisma of 3-4. Not (of course including) Foci. Oh....Do the spirits need to be MINE?> I can just borrow services from a 6/6 contact. Lets make him a dragon since you brought that up lol, or more realistically we can borrow from another member of my shadow running team. QUOTE Sure, do you have a few dozen edge? No? Well then. Sure, you do that. You're still at almost 10 spells now, you'll be worthless in a fight with that kind of penalty. Who said I had to cast them all in the same day QUOTE Guess what, I can use infiltration, that means I'm hiding. I can still too. Good then your not attacking me QUOTE One success... and just by having contacts with vision enhancement 3, I can buy a hit and see you. Likewise, I can use my own longshot test, and spend edge to get that 1 success needed to see you. Thats nice all those extra dice to SEE are at a -16-28 penalty, you will never be able to spot me. Good please a edge I have counted you using 3 edge so far. now you can see me...how much do you have left. Also I can just...Hide again |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 30th August 2025 - 03:38 AM |
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