Armor and how to get it (Sky High!), Getting 100+ armor bonus consistantly for fun and profit Options

[Cain]

No. The rules say, A = 0. Think of variables.
Initially and normally, A = C+B+V+P.
You do a called shot, that sets A = 0.
C B V and P do not need to change their values. Because A is no longer equal to them.

Then if A != C+B+V+P, how do you derive the initial value of A?

You're saying this:

A = C + B+ V + P

A x 0 = A

Which, of course, cannot be right from a mathematical standpoint, unless CBVP also equals 0.

[Azmahel]

But technicaly a called shot doesn't change anything about the armor-value of a target.
It *does* however change the damage-resistance test, which becomes simply Body, not Body+Armor,
So A is still about 50+, yet doesn't conferr any bonus dice to am damageresistance test.

[Cain]

It's the modified armor that's compared for the penetration test. So, if you manage to modify the armor down to zero, the barrier provides no help at all.

[Azmahel]

yet you don't modify the armor at all.
you modify the resistancetest.

[Cain]

yet you don't modify the armor at all.
you modify the resistancetest.

That's not quite right. For the purpose of penetration, you compare the modified armor rating.

[Azmahel]

still the armor rating isn't modified by the longshot,
yet you might pass the barrier with an high DV, high AP Attack

[Tarantula]

SR4, 157, "If the weapon’s modified Damage Value does not exceed the barrier’s Armor rating (modified by the weapon’s AP), then the weapon is simply not strong enough to pierce the barrier, and the attack automatically fails."
Quite explicitly, the only thing that effects the armor rating of the barrier is the AP value of the weapon. If Barrier Armor - AP > DV of attack, attack fails.

[Cain]

still the armor rating isn't modified by the longshot,
yet you might pass the barrier with an high DV, high AP Attack

The armor *is* modified. If you hit with a flechette weapon, the AP penalty doesn't apply.

[Tarantula]

The armor *is* modified. If you hit with a flechette weapon, the AP penalty doesn't apply.

He is actually quite correct. The called shot rules explicitly state the armor is ignored for damage resistance, and the target rolls only body. In fact, the armor never is modified to 0.

Damage resistance test normally: body + armor.
Called shot to bypass armor damage resistance test: body.

The barrier and everything else maintains its original armor rating, and all the rules for shooting through the barrier apply. You simply only roll body for his damage resistance test.

SR4, 150, "If the attack hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance test; the target rolls only Body."

Edit: This also means that armor will still reduce a Physical DV down to Stun, even if you call a shot to bypass it.

[Cain]

Actually, that particular called shot is: "Target an area not covered by armor". So, the armor is bypassed. There's no exception for barriers. Also, the physical DV is left untouched, and the AP penalty of flechette ammo does not apply.

[Tarantula]

And the character is enclosed in a barrier. So you have to shoot through the barrier to hit the character. If you can't do that, the attack fails, ignoring armor for damage resistance or not.

[Cain]

And the character is enclosed in a barrier. So you have to shoot through the barrier to hit the character. If you can't do that, the attack fails, ignoring armor for damage resistance or not.

By definition, when you use that Called Shot, you're targeting a weak point, so you can damage the rigger. So, not only is the armor modified to 0, but you have a shot at his unprotected flesh, never mind how. Sure, you have to take a -140 penalty to even consider the shot, but that's what Longshot tests are for.

[Fortune]

Actually, that particular called shot is: "Target an area not covered by armor".

Actually, if you're claiming that Barriers are equivalent to, and treated as worn Armor, then such an area does not exist in this case, due to the presense of the Rigger Cocoon.

[Tarantula]

By definition, when you use that Called Shot, you're targeting a weak point, so you can damage the rigger. So, not only is the armor modified to 0, but you have a shot at his unprotected flesh, never mind how. Sure, you have to take a -140 penalty to even consider the shot, but that's what Longshot tests are for.

Armor is not modified to 0. It is ignored during the damage resistance test. That is all.

It does not say that it is ignored for everything. Only for the damage resistance. This means you need to exceed the armor of the barrier in order to do damage to him. And you need to exceed his armor rating in order to do P damage to him.

[BullZeye]

Just to clarify this a bit: a guy is standing behind a small town, structure of 453 and armor of 236 wearing a light body armor, you can bypass the whole tiny obstacle by reducing enough dice to drop his armor to 0? Or just to simplify, a big concrete wall with body 20 armor 10 and a guy standing behind it in lined coat, the one targeting has to reduce how many dice to kill the guy with his Ares Predator firing a fletchette round? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

A guy in cocoon and cocoon inside a car: you gotta get through the cocoon in order to bypass the armor the guy is wearing. But it's still a layered armor so you can nibble through it slowly if I recall (armor degrade optional rule in arsenal, somewhere?).

[Cain]

Just to clarify this a bit: a guy is standing behind a small town, structure of 453 and armor of 236 wearing a light body armor, you can bypass the whole tiny obstacle by reducing enough dice to drop his armor to 0? Or just to simplify, a big concrete wall with body 20 armor 10 and a guy standing behind it in lined coat, the one targeting has to reduce how many dice to kill the guy with his Ares Predator firing a fletchette round? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

He couldn't make the shot, because he'd be out of range of a heavy pistol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Seriously, if you have a problem with the called shot, don't allow it. Just like the mechatank: If he can get away with the rules-twisting required to have 100+ points of armor, the same GM is bloody likely to allow the called shot.

[Tarantula]

He couldn't make the shot, because he'd be out of range of a heavy pistol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Seriously, if you have a problem with the called shot, don't allow it. Just like the mechatank: If he can get away with the rules-twisting required to have 100+ points of armor, the same GM is bloody likely to allow the called shot.

Just a note, one the rules were hashed out, he had 50+worn armor. So, if we took Brick and threw him in there, it'd be 100+. But more than likely in the area of 50-70. Of course, when you throw magic throws a wrench in things, but at best, with a force 12 armor on the car, and a force 12 armor on the character, that'd be 24 more armor. And I'd guess you could do a force 12 reinforce on the rigger cocoon. So 36. Assuming you can get the 12 hits on each of those and keep them sustained somehow.


Regardless, there is no rules twisting in order to get that to work, and anyone wanting to shoot at the character inside the vehicle is pretty much retarded. You'd be much better of just shooting the vehicle (or calling a shot to bypass the vehicle armor, at a 20-32 point penalty) and just blow the vehicle up. Then take your time getting up to him to take him out.

[Glyph]

When a shot is called, either of the following may occur, at the player's choice and with the gamemaster's agreement.

Some might say that in SR4, a bit too much is left to GM discretion, rather than being iron-clad and consistent. But it does put the kibosh on things like a player claiming he should be able to bypass armor that is completely enclosing the target.

[Cain]

Tarantula and I are working on the assumption that the shot is already allowed. A GM could ban anything in their game, including the mechatank. My argument is that if he's allowing people to run around with 100+ points of armor, taking a -100 penalty to bypass it isn't going to change the game much.

[BullZeye]

So you are saying that it's possible to bypass structure with a called shot? I thought it only works for armors...

SR4 core 149-150

Target an area not protected by armor. Th e attacking character
receives a negative dice pool modifier equal to the target’s
armor (better armor is more difficult to bypass). If the attack
hits, the target’s armor is ignored for the damage resistance
test; the target rolls only Body.

Which means this whole debate was... pointless?

So again we hit the essence of dumpshock: I was right, you were wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Muahahahaahah (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)

[Cain]

Well, technically speaking, all the barrier does is add armor to the subject. And if it's armor, it can be bypassed. This: "The armor is zero but it's really not" business is just a side argument.

[BullZeye]

Yes, it's armor but you first have to get through the barrier's body as well. And as that's not armor, you have to first "kill" the structure before you can get past it.

[Glyph]

Tarantula and I are working on the assumption that the shot is already allowed.

You need to tell Tarantula that, because it seems like he has been arguing that it is not allowed.

[Tarantula]

Well, technically speaking, all the barrier does is add armor to the subject. And if it's armor, it can be bypassed. This: "The armor is zero but it's really not" business is just a side argument.

No, it does 2 things. It adds armor to the subject. And it must be shot through via the "shooting through barriers" section.
Calling a shot drops armor off from the damage resistance test. The check for being able to shoot through the barrier happens before that.

You need to tell Tarantula that, because it seems like he has been arguing that it is not allowed.

A while back I was. Then I said lets continue under the assumption the GM allows the shot.