Payment... Options

[Machiavelli]

...yes, I have searched for it, but I didn´t find anything appropriate. I also used "salary" as a search-criteria^^.

Now the question. Mages are rare. This is for sure. Mages usually get paid very good. This ones also for sure. But HOW MUCH BETTER get they paid than the usual sam-from-the-corner? I don´t ask for exact payment rates, because this depends on the game-style. but if e.g. a Mr. J offers 10k for a 4-head-team with 2 sams, 1 mage and a hacker, how should this be divided?

And what about riggers? Their equipment is expensive and they can cover a lot of tasks, so shouldn´t they also get paid better than the average runner?

[masterofm]

Well lets first handle this in a general -yes this has been covered in many various topics-

for payment - see car jacking team as I don't want to deal with that issue with a 20 foot long pole with some kind of killing instrument at the end of it.

I think paying any individual team member more is generally a bad idea when most everyone is good at killing people (one way or another.) Having the mage take 50% while everyone else gets next to nothing will probably leave some people a little bitter and the mage possibly a little dead.

Also I think the big thing here is don't look at Shadowrunning as legitimate. If it was legitimate everyone in the team would be drawing different salaries and have different things comped. However this is not legitimate and if everyone takes an even cut with your fixer skimming off the top a share somewhat larger then yours (although he won't ever tell you this) then it's generally the best way these things should be handled. Shadowrunners are closer to pirates then they are to legitimate corporate or government jobs.

[Blade]

First, be careful with that "mages are rare" thing. Sure, they insist a lot on that in the books, but if you consider the figures, there should be about as many awakened individuals as doctors in the whole world. And even if doctors aren't very common, there are still a lot of them.

Second, mages might be "rare" but do you think that street samurai with 0.05 essence and high combat skills are common? Do you think that there are a lot of people able to hack the most secure Matrix system?

Finally most of the time the Johnson don't hire individual runners but a whole team. The team work the way they want do whatever they want with their pay. If they want to give more money to the mage or the rigger, they're free to do so, but there's no reason why Johnson would decide to give more to one or another.

[Kairo]

I think paying any individual team member more is generally a bad idea when most everyone is good at killing people (one way or another.) Having the mage take 50% while everyone else gets next to nothing will probably leave some people a little bitter and the mage possibly a little dead.

Also I think the big thing here is don't look at Shadowrunning as legitimate. If it was legitimate everyone in the team would be drawing different salaries and have different things comped. However this is not legitimate and if everyone takes an even cut with your fixer skimming off the top a share somewhat larger then yours (although he won't ever tell you this) then it's generally the best way these things should be handled. Shadowrunners are closer to pirates then they are to legitimate corporate or government jobs.

+1

I've never seen my players ask for anything other than an even cut of the pie. That would certainly be interesting RP, however, should one of them with a bigger reputation begin to assert pressure for a bigger slice of a payment.

[DocTaotsu]

The only time I've ever seen different payouts was for NPC's that were brought in by PC's as specialists or as understudies. Those were one time deals and not something the PC's were particularly happy about.

I think most teams would chaff HARD under a varying payscale. They're all sharing in an equal amount of death/imprisonment right? They're all vital cogs in a great running machine? Mage boy thinks he's special huh? Gone to fancy mage school? Well lets see how mage boy does WITHOUT troll axe!

[Prime Mover]

Always seen it as a risk vs reward for a group of people who are willing to break laws and make enemy's as a team. If one member of that team suddenly decided he needed a bigger cut that member I imagine might find himself looking for a new team.

That being said after a few runs I've found it common for team members to loan cash or even just give some to a team member who's trying to upgrade gear that would benefit the teams activities.

[DocTaotsu]

Ah that's certainly true. I also players splitting things up unevenly when it comes to the teams "expense account".

I mean... the street sam usually just needs some extra bullets whereas the hacker might need to bribe the right people and the rigger might need some special mods for his drones and The Van.

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, but Mages burn Karma like they breathe air, so they should have at least a luxury lifestyle as compensation.^^

[Alieth]

Yeah, but Mages burn Karma like they breathe air, so they should have at least a luxury lifestyle as compensation.^^

I refuse to give each player a different amount of cash. They get a set price from the Johnson as a TEAM, and then they can divide it as they see necessary. We actually had a problem where the entire team nearly killed the face\rigger because he was the contact to the fixer, and as such was the one given the credstick. The stick had 50,000, which only the rigger knew, and he was only willing to give the other players 10,000 to split between themselves. The problem is that the team knew that the 'Run was much more valuable than 2000 a piece. The covert ops stole the 'stick from the rigger, and checked it, and saw the 50,000. The group nearly killed the rigger because he tried to short them 40,000.

Mages aren't anything special. A tricked out street sam has a better chance of eliminating a mage than the mage has of killing the sam.

No one character is more necessary than any other. Thinking that Mages deserve better treatment because they are a Mage could be a roleplaying thing, but don't expect the other characters to like you or want to run with you. No one likes a stuck up asshole.

Remember: Mages are nothing if they don't have something to soak up the bullets.

[masterofm]

The only thing our party takes into account are expenses. If the team will need 5k in explosives for the run and the demo expert buys it or makes it he gets 5k (or the cost of ingredients, whichever works best) skimmed off the top of the run. If a mage has to burn all of his/her bound spirits then that is taken off the top, or if a rigger has to sacrifice a drone. There are all "has to do" clauses which the team will generally also have to agree on before payment is distributed. Then payment gets split up equally after everything has been accounted for.

If you expect your mage to get 100k lifestyle w/o fail per month you might be alone on 98% of your runs until you hit the big leagues (if you hit the big leagues [which you probably wont.]) Also a lot of mages do not burn karma like they breath air. It really depends on your mage build and what you are trying to squeeze out of it. If a mage has to use karma for binding foci/initiating/spells/buying up magic or anything like that yes it takes a lot of karma, but hell if you should get paid more for that reason. If your mage thinks he/she deserves 100k because he/she wanted more tasks on a high force spirit so burned karma? Tough luck pal. If your mage thinks he/she deserves a high cut, because he/she was forced to burn karma or it was a total party wipe then yeah.... you might end up getting a higher share. Although what if the street sam saves the entire party, or the rigger, or the face. Should they suddenly clamor for 95% of the pie? All of that leads to a lack of team dynamics that can get the entire team killed. Generally its best to go with the first option that I suggested because anything else can lead to....

Team: "Help us sammie! Your our only hope!"

Sammie: "Nuh uh. Not unless I get all the money for this run!"

Team: "But you have done that the last three missions!"

Sammie: "So? The mage has done it for the last six before that, and the rigger has taken the most money so far in general so screw it if I'm risking my neck for you guys. I need to get whats mine before I care to help you out."

Phase to the eventual TPK or entire party wipe.


Also mages can win on sammies and sammies can win on mages. It's all a matter of who can hit who first, and who has all their defenses up from the get go so all of the bluster is totally useless. The biggest thing is team dynamics. Taking an equal cut save expenses allows for less animosity towards PCs where as someone who wants to just be a total hog/ass and try and take everything on the table generally leaves someone dead.

[Method]

First, be careful with that "mages are rare" thing. Sure, they insist a lot on that in the books, but if you consider the figures, there should be about as many awakened individuals as doctors in the whole world. And even if doctors aren't very common, there are still a lot of them.

Doh! Blade stole my ol' standby argument to the "mages are rare" idea. He's dead on though. To quote an old post from another thread:

The whole 1% thing seems to be widely misunderstood. 1% is not that rare in a large population. In the U.S. about 0.29% (~ 1/3 of one percent) of the population are doctors, and they aren't considered exceptionally rare. In fact most people know at least one doctor, and few would say the idea of knowing a doctor is unbelievable, or strange or unheard of.

Anyway, every character has strengths and weaknesses. Thats the whole point of a runner team. The most uber-mage would be useless without a hacker if, for example, he had to take on a few well equipped drones. And that isn't all that unusual of a situation. If your GM is properly challenging your group, teamwork should be essential and everyone should have a role to play.

Unless of coarse you are playing a cut throat "every man for himself" kind of campaign. But if thats the case a mage might want to think twice before demanding a bigger cut of the payment. As was mentioned above, every character type in SR has lethal potential... or worse...

[ludomastro]

While I know this is how I play SR (and normally how I GM it) I can't believe that teams would be the norm in an "actual" SR world. I would imagine that each person is contacted individually for a given price plus certain run-based expenses (explosives, tranq rounds, etc.).

[Alieth]

While I know this is how I play SR (and normally how I GM it) I can't believe that teams would be the norm in an "actual" SR world. I would imagine that each person is contacted individually for a given price plus certain run-based expenses (explosives, tranq rounds, etc.).

Not necessarily. I have had it happen both ways, but once you have an established Shadowrunning team, you usually contact the team rather than a single person for the job. It doesn't always go that way, but to say that teams are not the norm isn't true. I would have to say both single persons and teams are the norm equally.

[Whipstitch]

As a GM, I often make heavy use of goods-for-services when negotiating payments for my players. For example, a Mr. J may offer players their choice between a modest cash payment or a paltry sum of nuyen plus some high availability gear or a trip to Chiba for something snazzy but not necessarily overpowered like a Delta Skillwire 3 system, custom non-metallic firearms, or a Force 2 weapon focus that happens to be unusually cheap to attune thanks to the powers of GM fiat. After all, we're talking about a black market economy where some goods have an inflated value due to scarcity and the difficulty of acquiring things while SINless; some items may be easily worth more to the runners than to the J (especially if he's a corp boy), and by offering the players some good deals once in a while you can herd them away from tweaking one pool constantly without really screwing them over and arbitrarily introducing cash and karma sinks into the game.

[Blog]

Typically for my group, If its something that is 'planned' for use then that cost is from the top (explosives, hardware, summons, etc). Whatever left is split.

My previous group had a 'group fund' which counted as 2 players for the share distribution. This fun was used for expenses the group deemed fit, or loans to group members to get that item 'just a little faster'. Most operating expenses came out of there.

[ludomastro]

Not necessarily. I have had it happen both ways, but once you have an established Shadowrunning team, you usually contact the team rather than a single person for the job. It doesn't always go that way, but to say that teams are not the norm isn't true. I would have to say both single persons and teams are the norm equally.

I respect your point of view and that is how I play SR both as a player and GM; however, I am having trouble seeing it from a "real life" perspective. And yes, I know how dangerous putting RL and SR in the same sentence is. (Unless that sentence points out how RL=/=SR and/or SR=/=RL.) SR Teams, to me, smack of a meta-game concept that allow the players to enjoy the game. Could there be teams? Sure, why not? There was a "company" back in the 20's and 30's that was called "Murder Inc." by the media. They were extremely successful in their hits because the hitman was from out of town. So, while I can see it happening, I personally don't see it being the norm.

But, hey, YMMV.

[knasser]

The whole 1% thing seems to be widely misunderstood. 1% is not that rare in a large population. In the U.S. about 0.29% (~ 1/3 of one percent) of the population are doctors, and they aren't considered exceptionally rare. In fact most people know at least one doctor, and few would say the idea of knowing a doctor is unbelievable, or strange or unheard of.

But how many doctors do you find breaking into corporations for a few thousand once every couple of months in order to get by? The number of magicians running the shadows is likely to be low, offset only by the frequent mental instability of magicians. Also, remember that the 1% of Awakened isn't comprised solely of magicians. It encompasses everyone who has a touch of second sight, a spell or spirit knack as well as the adepts. We don't even know what proportion of the 1% of awakened is supposed to be magicians and from the fluff, we could well consider it to be pretty low. And of those magicians, we know that the most common rating is to have Magic of 2 or 3. That 1% might even include those that have not yet or never will realise their magical talent, as Sam Werner nearly didn't in the first SR triology. All these factors serve to reconcile that 1% awakened figure with the rarity of magicians in the fluff, especially those willing or forced to run the shadows for some reason.

And even of those awakened that finally are magicians after all these allowances, we still don't know how many are full magicians and how many are sorcery / conjuring / enchanting adepts as described in Street Magic, etc. These partial magicians clearly exist because those qualities apply it, so if I'm statting an NPC or even a magical grunt and have no particular need to have a broad range of skills, I not infrequently make them a restricted magician of the appropriate type. For realism, I make sure that my setting has an appropriate presence of low-level adepts, people with second sight (astral vision), etc. I believe that the fluff is not incompatible with the stated 1% figure, and in fact works quite well.

My thoughts put for the sake of friendly debate,

Regards,

K.

[Karaden]

Simple fact of the mater is that Johnsons hire teams, not members. They plop a wad of cash on the table and walk away. They really don't care if the members all shoot each other for it (Actually that could make them happy), they don't care who gets how much. All they care about is the fact that the mission is done and they don't have to talk to you any more.

Of course this is often handled through a fixer, but then the Johnson cares even less. The fixer on the other hand may cut their friend a slightly bigger piece (And themselves of course) and there may be some prearranged deal with members to pay for certain things before splits being made, but that is generally all up to the group (And slightly the GM as he is controlling the fixer)

All that said, I highly advise against cutting any member a bigger slice just because they are a certain archetype. If you could consider the repair bill for the rigger, but only if you also add in medical bills and ammo costs for the sam, 'expendable tools' costs for the infiltrator, and all kinds of other stuff. In the end, everyone has costs, so just cut it even and let them deal with it.

Only if you notice someone having to burn way more then the others to 'recoup expenses' should you even remotely consider favoring them pay wise, and even then it should be a case of talking to the group and suggesting they maybe give the person a bit more, not just doing it yourself.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

In the games I've played in, if the money was for the run instead of "per runner" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) , we'd typically divide the cash by the # of players +1...that extra share would be for run-related expenses - bribes, required special equipment, binding materials for a run-specific spirit, cash to buy or replace a kamikazee-drone, etc.

Generally that's worked out quite well.

[Karaden]

Ah, the infamous 'party kitty'. A good idea really. Now admittedly I see SR characters as being less likely to share so nicely like that. But it does make perfect sense. Why should Sam take a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) hit just because he was picked to try and get past the guard (Socially) and had to bribe him to make it work.

[Tarantula]

Ah, the infamous 'party kitty'. A good idea really. Now admittedly I see SR characters as being less likely to share so nicely like that. But it does make perfect sense. Why should Sam take a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) hit just because he was picked to try and get past the guard (Socially) and had to bribe him to make it work.

Cause a good face could've talked his way past the guard without costing anything. Sam shoulda made the face go if he didn't want to pay for his shortcomings.

[Isath]

It all fully depends... on a lot of things, like type of campaign, team and so on.

For real teams (with a fixed cast) it really seems to be the best to share evenly with one share left for expenses (like allready has been mentioned).

However I also saw campaigns where the teams were not fixed. The Johnsons either had a fixer put a team together, or gave the job to one person, that then built his team by the jobs demands. In either case the pay could have been different for everyone on the job, as we did not know what the other got and didn't ask.

Now to the mages. Yes, they are rare - I think 1% of the 1% are fully awakened mages or so (not claiming to know, it's somewhere in the back of my head). Magic gives you high potential, not more and definatly not less. It seems to be safe to say, that magic does not protect you from being a retard, dumb or simple unable. So magic alone is not the deal and I would rather pay high nuyen for expertise, skill and maybe reputation, than just for being awakened. It can be quite unhealthy to demand more because of youre status as awakened (which could easily switch from awakened to retired).

[Tiger Eyes]

In our group, we act as a team, share living space, and negotiate for a team payment or equal gear for everyone (ie, 40k for the team and a new rating 5 fake ID for each person). Everyone gets an equal share.

Now, mind you, we wanted to have a group account (which we've done with every other team - an expense account for runs, shared gear, bribes, bail, etc). But my friends and fellow roleplayers told me I was in charge of the group account this time around, and dreading the idea of bookkeeping for my technomancer and the group account, I just declared that my TM's account would be the group account. After all, what does a TM need money for?

So her account is used for paying rent, bribes, and other group activities... it's a first for us (yes, I'm lazy and think having to balance my checkbook in real life is hard enough work...). In the past we generally put 10% of earnings in the group account off the top, then subtract run-related expenses, then divided the balance between team members. We've also taken runs where we've recieved goods or services that only benefit one person on the team, say a powerful foci for our mage, and we just do the run with no complaints. But we consider teamwork a positive and we get more jobs because we work well together.

[Karaden]

Cause a good face could've talked his way past the guard without costing anything. Sam shoulda made the face go if he didn't want to pay for his shortcomings.

Sam is the face (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Blade]

But how many doctors do you find breaking into corporations for a few thousand once every couple of months in order to get by?

Doctors' skills aren't exactly what's needed to break into corporations. I think it'd be better to compare with doctors who lost their license but keep practicing anyway, or doctors who have criminal activities or work with criminals.