Naive Spirit Questions, power focus and aid sorcery? Options

[JoelHalpern]

There is wording in the base book that one can use only one focus to aid any given roll.
But can one use a bound spirit to aid sorcery in conjunction with a power focus?

For that matter, can a magician use two bound spirits to aid sorcery at the same time? It shouldn't work, but I can not figure out where in the rules it says that it doesn't work. (The focus text is quite clear "only one focus may add its Force to any single dice pool." But there is no similar text in the spirits section.)

Which relates to the comment I have seen a couple of times, but never gotten a clear read on. Can a magician have more than one Ally Spirit?

Yours,
Joel Halpern

[Ancient History]

The relevant bit is actually on p.54, SR4, Dice Pool Modifiers. So to answer your first two questions:

Yes, you can add dice from both a power focus and a bound spirit's Aid Sorcery ability to the same test as they are different dice pool modifiers.

No, you cannot add dice from Aid Sorcery from two different bound spirits to the same test because they are the same type of dice pool modifier.

As to multiple ally spirits, there's nothing against it and its traditional, so sure.

[pbangarth]

Yes, using a spirit to aid sorcery along with using a Power Focus is acceptable.

It isn't specifically stated in SR4 whether one is limited to one spirit only for Aid Sorcery, but the only other magical service provided by bound spirits that could also benefit from multiple spirits cooperating is Aid Study, and under the description of that it specifically states, "A character can only use one spirit for the learning of a new spell." ( p. 178)

So, we are stuck with the standard argument between those who say, "If it doesn't specifically say NO, then yes." and those who say, "The precedent is set with Aid Study and so, NO." There are many such endless arguments on Dumpshock. Please, God, let there not be another one here. As soon as I or anyone else actually answers your question, the verbal struggle will almost certainly commence.

It could get pretty ugly if, say, eight bound spirits were all to add their dice to the casting of a spell, so there is a balance argument against doing so. On the other hand, there is the sidebar on p. 178 that suggests the option of applying -2 dice modifier to all tests for each extra bound spirit being used at the same time. With any spirit of Force greater than 2, there would still be a net gain on the actual casting, but every other action until the spirits were sent back to never-never land would be horribly handicapped.

One would always be safe with any GM by using only one spirit at a time to Aid Sorcery.


EDIT: Ah, good on Ancient History for pulling up the "same dice pool modifier" argument as I was writing. Ancient History, could you please save me the search and point out where that point shows up in the manuals, so I can put in yet another yellow sticky note to remind me? I hate being wrong, and it's even worse when I write a long note demonstrating it.

[Ancient History]

I swear to ghost I saw that rule but for the life of me I can't find it. The rule I was referencing on p.54 was "If more than one dice pool modifier applies, they are added together and applied to the dice pool." Which works great for the focus + Aid Sorcery example, but can be open to interpretation otherwise (not counting specific rules about not-stacking in regards to foci and Aid Study). Bugger. Now I have to try and find the rule I'm thinking of.

[darthmord]

AH,

I know of which rule you are talking about but I don't have my books with me. It basically reads that you can have any number of bonuses added to a pool but a given source can only be used once per test.

So only one focus, one spirit, etc etc.

[pbangarth]

AH,

I know of which rule you are talking about but I don't have my books with me. It basically reads that you can have any number of bonuses added to a pool but a given source can only be used once per test.

So only one focus, one spirit, etc etc.

This rings a bell for me, too, but ....hmmmm... then there is the bit in the Shadowrun FAQ under Combat about recoil: "Every bullet fired in an Action Phase after the first incurs a cumulative -1 recoil dice pool modifier" So, if six different bullets can each affect the current shot, how come six different spirits cannot affect the current casting of a spell?

Peter

[darthmord]

This rings a bell for me, too, but ....hmmmm... then there is the bit in the Shadowrun FAQ under Combat about recoil: "Every bullet fired in an Action Phase after the first incurs a cumulative -1 recoil dice pool modifier" So, if six different bullets can each affect the current shot, how come six different spirits cannot affect the current casting of a spell?

Peter

That's because those six bullets are all coming from the same gun. Have you tried to rapid fire a gun in real life? It's not easy to do AND maintain accuracy without external assistance (recoil compensation).

Now if those spirits were doing ritual casting with the cast... that is a different story.

[pbangarth]

Yeah, ritual casting came to my mind too. I see your point about the one gun/many bullets.

I do wish it had been explicitly defined somewhere that each source can add only one set of dice to the pool. Many of us seem to remember that it was written somewhere, but nobody can remember exactly where.

Peter