Getting frusterated with SR4 rules..., and I really want to like them Options

[Cantankerous]

I wouldn't call it a problem with GURPS being Generic and Universal, but a problem with GURPS mechanics itself.
HERO is also generic and universal and can emulate ANY type of game you possibly want - including any edition of SR. As a matter of fact, hands-down HERO is the most versatile system I've seen/worked with.

Different strokes man. I personally don't like Hero at all. I feel that it is far too heavily top loaded. I find GURPS fully CAPABLE of handling any genre out there, simply not as well as some games dedicated specifically TO the genre.


Isshia

[Wesley Street]

They seriously need to come up with an internet standard sarcasm tag. Like a special font or something.

You mean your <sarcasm>sarcasm</sarcasm> tags aren't working in your browser? I'd suggest degaussing your bezier filter.

I played Shadowrun 1st Edition many years ago, right before 2nd Edition came out and I dropped out of RPGing in general. The concept of using the Matrix for Legwork wasn't even there. All those Legwork/Game Information charts in the backs of the adventure modules listed out which appropriate contact could give out what information. In-game, we picked up the phone and started making phone calls to NPCs.

The final threshold for hits required to complete a task is up to the GM, ultimately. But one of the things I think On The Run did right by being an intro product was showing that, while general information could be found on the Matrix, it was supposed to be much harder to find. A threshold 1 Contact bit of info would require a threshold of 2 on the Matrix. Two for a Contact would be 4 on the Matrix, 3 for a Contact would be 8 on the Matrix and then moving it up exponentially. Also, though a Contact may not have the information off-hand the Contact may know someone who does. Which is where the Connection Rating comes in; determining how long until a Contact comes back with needed info.

If the team Hacker is doing all the Legwork, then it's probably because the PCs shot themselves in the foot by not placing any resources into good Contacts and Charisma skills. Sure, not everyone wants to be a Face, but there's more to the game than shooting stuff and casting magic.

Someone on this board mentioned a player dumping a ton of build points into his PC's Contacts and basically having a Rolodex full of the movers and shakers in Seattle. While that would be tricky for a GM to work with, at the same time, I think that's a brilliant move on the part of the player, even if he stinks at combat.

[tete]

I don't think Burning Wheel uses lifepaths (at least not the version I bought) but I haven't finished reading the rules over so I might have missed that part.

The main set comes with two books, the rule book and the character burner. The character burner contains all the lifepath stuff.

[Cain]

Doc: In order to do a data search, you need the Data Search skill plus a Browse program. This being a Matrix test, you can't default to an attribute. So, running a Matrix search is solely the province of deckers.

The final threshold for hits required to complete a task is up to the GM, ultimately. But one of the things I think On The Run did right by being an intro product was showing that, while general information could be found on the Matrix, it was supposed to be much harder to find. A threshold 1 Contact bit of info would require a threshold of 2 on the Matrix. Two for a Contact would be 4 on the Matrix, 3 for a Contact would be 8 on the Matrix and then moving it up exponentially. Also, though a Contact may not have the information off-hand the Contact may know someone who does. Which is where the Connection Rating comes in; determining how long until a Contact comes back with needed info.

I'm flipping through my cursed e-copy of On The Run, and I'm not seeing anything like that. I am seeing that the initial connection between Nabo and the disk requires a contact to make a Music Knowledge test, which most contacts won't have. So, the only way to do it is to go on the matrix. Also, given that no one can have contacts that cover every subject the Matrix does, you're going to have to go to the matrix for a lot of legwork.

If the team Hacker is doing all the Legwork, then it's probably because the PCs shot themselves in the foot by not placing any resources into good Contacts and Charisma skills. Sure, not everyone wants to be a Face, but there's more to the game than shooting stuff and casting magic.

It's usually because it's easier and faster to go through the decker. Data Searching is an extended test with an interval of 1 min, in On the Run at least. Getting in touch with a contact is a process that could take hours, and there's no guarantee that they'd know anything. You still have to roll for Contact knowledge as well. The difference is that contacts only get one roll, while deckers get as many as they like.

As far as info being offline, if it's offline it's probably too hot for a data search. Of course, putting everything offline would be cheese.

[Shinxy]

In short, I'd rather deal with a rules lawyer than a munchkin GM.

How can the GM be a munchkin? The GM is God. The GM's word is law. The GM is given authority to bend or break the rules at any given time to suit the story. It's not a contest between the players and the dastardly GM, it's a game of storytelling, and everyone wins if they're having a good time. If you've forgotten that basic fact, you're missing the point.

If people aren't having a good time and the GM is bad, then just don't have that person GM. That simple. Rules lawyering will NOT fix it.

See the heading in the main book: "The Abstract Nature of Rules".

[masterofm]

So everything that everyone has said for like the last few pages is totally arbitrary you realize right? It's all arbitrary w/o any guidelines whatsoever so the GM just has to make stuff up. This is a problem since there is nothing tied down to help out a budding GM in how to make tests. You could post up something on dumpshock asking what threshold to set a test at and describe the situation and guess what? It's all arbitrary! Cains argument? Arbitrary! DocTaotsu argument? Arbitrary! Everyone else? Arbitrary! If you are a GM and you need a few guidelines or some suggestions Shadowrun does not really help you all that much. So many passages say "leave it to the GMs whim" w/o giving any kind of help as to what you might want to consider.

So if you want to just shortchange the hacker you can have them make two rolls and find out the links you all need to make and have the rest of the team do everything else as hackers in SR4 are pricey characters bp wise and if they want to be good at hacking it means they suck at most everything else (generally.) There is a balancing issue for the whole game, but the GM has no real guidelines or tips on how to really do this with ease and at speed. Since the hits are capped at program rating sometimes matrix combat seems like everyone just starts busting out the rubber ducks and whales on each other. Sometimes it can be brief and take no time at all, but for what I have seen a hacker can have problems with just 1x r6 ice and that combat took over 30 minutes just because the hacker only rolled 4 more dice then the ice... and the hacker eventually lost. In a actual combat situation even if you don't roll all that well you can still end up whaling on the opposition with all different kinds of tricks. The matrix however does not quite have the same granularity as in the flesh combat, or legwork, or whatever.

[Cain]

How can the GM be a munchkin? The GM is God. The GM's word is law. The GM is given authority to bend or break the rules at any given time to suit the story. It's not a contest between the players and the dastardly GM, it's a game of storytelling, and everyone wins if they're having a good time. If you've forgotten that basic fact, you're missing the point.

If people aren't having a good time and the GM is bad, then just don't have that person GM. That simple. Rules lawyering will NOT fix it.

Simply having the bad GM not GM isn't always an option. I burn out as a GM fairly frequently, so either someone else GMs or no game happens.

And you've apparently never had a munchkin GM. The sort where the GM tells the story, and the players are along for the ride. The sort where it doesn't matter what you do, the Mary-Sue GMPC can do it better. The sort where if you do anything except what the GM wants you to do, it's negated by some twist of the rules, or by: "Because I'm the GM, that's why."

Here's a concept that is a little hard to grasp, but makes a huge difference:

THE GM IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PLAYERS

The GM is not god, he is just another player with more responsibility. He does not need to be the final authority on anything; you can have a fun game without the slightest trace of GM fiat. In short, the GM is not granted special powers based on his position; he is just one among many.

The matrix however does not quite have the same granularity as in the flesh combat, or legwork, or whatever.

Here's one example, for those of you who don't get what he's saying. Take a look at all the actions you can take in combat. Now, look at what you can do in cybercombat. You can only attack or go full defense. That's it! So, cybercomat can rapidly devolve into a case of "I try to hit him again."

[Matsci]

Doc: In order to do a data search, you need the Data Search skill plus a Browse program. This being a Matrix test, you can't default to an attribute. So, running a Matrix search is solely the province of deckers.

Page 208, under matrix Tests; You use the program rating instead of an ability score, so I assume that you default to the program rating-1

I'm flipping through my cursed e-copy of On The Run, and I'm not seeing anything like that. I am seeing that the initial connection between Nabo and the disk requires a contact to make a Music Knowledge test, which most contacts won't have. So, the only way to do it is to go on the matrix. Also, given that no one can have contacts that cover every subject the Matrix does, you're going to have to go to the matrix for a lot of legwork.

Pages 49-53.

It's usually because it's easier and faster to go through the decker. Data Searching is an extended test with an interval of 1 min, in On the Run at least. Getting in touch with a contact is a process that could take hours, and there's no guarantee that they'd know anything. You still have to roll for Contact knowledge as well. The difference is that contacts only get one roll, while deckers get as many as they like.

As far as info being offline, if it's offline it's probably too hot for a data search. Of course, putting everything offline would be cheese.

It takes all of 3 seconds to call a friend, and the Contact can dig around, rolling a Charisma+ Connection extended test, with an interval of 1 hour; so both get infinite rolls.

[Fortune]

Doc: In order to do a data search, you need the Data Search skill plus a Browse program. This being a Matrix test, you can't default to an attribute. So, running a Matrix search is solely the province of deckers.

Really? I've ever actually played a Decker / Hacker, and yet more than half of my characters have those two things. The ones that don't typically have an Agent to do that kind of thing, which according to the books is a somewhat common occurrence among those less matrix-savvy.

I am seeing that the initial connection between Nabo and the disk requires a contact to make a Music Knowledge test, which most contacts won't have. So, the only way to do it is to go on the matrix. Also, given that no one can have contacts that cover every subject the Matrix does, you're going to have to go to the matrix for a lot of legwork.

There is always defaulting for this type of thing. Or you could use the Networking rules.

[Muspellsheimr]

A little late, but Cain, where are you getting 'you cannot buy Hits on Data Search' from?

There is no such restriction anywhere under RAW. & do not start spouting that bullshit about "you can glitch/fail = you cannot buy Hits". Under that ruling, you could never buy Hits, & there would not be a section in the rules for it.

[Shinxy]

So everything that everyone has said for like the last few pages is totally arbitrary you realize right? It's all arbitrary w/o any guidelines whatsoever so the GM just has to make stuff up. This is a problem since there is nothing tied down to help out a budding GM in how to make tests. You could post up something on dumpshock asking what threshold to set a test at and describe the situation and guess what? It's all arbitrary! Cains argument? Arbitrary! DocTaotsu argument? Arbitrary! Everyone else? Arbitrary! If you are a GM and you need a few guidelines or some suggestions Shadowrun does not really help you all that much. So many passages say "leave it to the GMs whim" w/o giving any kind of help as to what you might want to consider.

Yes, it's arbitrary, and that's a good thing. The GM has to make judgment calls. That's why these rules lawyering arguments are so stupid- because ultimately the GM's word is law. Of course a good GM will come up with something that seems fair to everyone and heightens the game's tension, but really it's an imagination game and the GM creates the world that the players interact with so all the power rests with the GM. That simple! If you want the rulebook to hold your hand and tell you how to make every test, you should probably play a strategy game like Warhammer, or a video game, instead, where there's no ambiguity.

Shadowrun is a complicated world with a lot to keep track of, but at its core it's just group storytelling. Back to basics. If the storytelling is good, everything else follows from that. If the most fun your group is having is rolling dice and arguing about the rules, I think you're really missing out on something. It also makes me sad how many people have called the plot and storyline and setting "fluff" as though the real game is combat and rolling dice for legwork.

You know what's funny about these games? They have so many rules for rolling dice, but the only real reason to roll dice is if there can be some uncertainty as to the result. Taking the legwork example, if the players absolutely need to have certain information, give it to them! And if they absolutely shouldn't have certain information, don't let them have it, no matter how high they roll! Sure, make a show of rolling the dice, but the storyline should never be held prisoner by dice rolls. The only time that dice rolls should be important are in cases where the result COULD be a failure or a success, and the game could still go on. Hopefully the GM is flexible enough that the vast majority of rolls are these kinds of situations, but there are some situations where the dice rolls should be fudged in service to telling a good story, and that is fine.

Any GM who complains that the Decker/Hacker is getting too much information is being a pushover and not keeping good control of the game. Period.

[Wesley Street]

I'm flipping through my cursed e-copy of On The Run, and I'm not seeing anything like that. I am seeing that the initial connection between Nabo and the disk requires a contact to make a Music Knowledge test, which most contacts won't have. It's usually because it's easier and faster to go through the decker. Data Searching is an extended test with an interval of 1 min, in On the Run at least. Getting in touch with a contact is a process that could take hours, and there's no guarantee that they'd know anything. You still have to roll for Contact knowledge as well. The difference is that contacts only get one roll, while deckers get as many as they like.

In the back of On The Run, look under the Legwork/Cast of Characters section. For each Legwork topic (Nabo, JetBlack, etc.) there are two columns, one listing for Matrix thresholds (2, 4, 8, 16) and one for Contact thresholds (1, 2, 3, 4). I have a published print copy so I can't speak for the eBook version.

Even if no runner has Music Knowledge as a skill, surely one of them was smart enough to have a fixer for a contact. The point of a fixer is to be at the center of a web of information. So even if the fixer doesn't have the answer, he's going to know someone who does. Or someone who knows someone who does. That's where the Connection rating comes into play. The lower the roll in comparison to the threshold, the longer it's going to take the player to get the information through a contact's string of sources. So in terms of game mechanics, yes, there is a guarantee the player will get the information he needs from a contact. It only depends on how fast he'll get it. Just like a Data Search Extended Test guarantees the player will eventually get the information (if left unchecked by the GM). Yes, it may take more time in-game (a few hours instead of the few minutes that it takes to do a Matrix search) but for the players sitting around the table it's the same amount of time spent rolling and asking questions. And it doesn't become "spotlight the dude with the high Data Search and high-rated Browse Program" time.

With On the Run, the PCs could have contacted the Johnson as well as he was in the entertainment industry.

Now, if a job requires the runners complete it in an extremely short amount of time in-game, sure, Matrix is probably the best way to go. But in most fair games a game master will give the players a little more leeway.

[Wesley Street]

Shadowrun is a complicated world with a lot to keep track of, but at its core it's just group storytelling. Back to basics. If the storytelling is good, everything else follows from that. If the most fun your group is having is rolling dice and arguing about the rules, I think you're really missing out on something. It also makes me sad how many people have called the plot and storyline and setting "fluff" as though the real game is combat and rolling dice for legwork. You know what's funny about these games? They have so many rules for rolling dice, but the only real reason to roll dice is if there can be some uncertainty as to the result. Taking the legwork example, if the players absolutely need to have certain information, give it to them! And if they absolutely shouldn't have certain information, don't let them have it, no matter how high they roll! Sure, make a show of rolling the dice, but the storyline should never be held prisoner by dice rolls. The only time that dice rolls should be important are in cases where the result COULD be a failure or a success, and the game could still go on. Hopefully the GM is flexible enough that the vast majority of rolls are these kinds of situations, but there are some situations where the dice rolls should be fudged in service to telling a good story, and that is fine.

Uh-oh, Shinxy! You missed the "I should be able to kill Harlequin screw the story" bru-ha-ha. There's some fun reading if you have a few hours and your eyes don't roll right out of your head. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Shinxy]

Simply having the bad GM not GM isn't always an option. I burn out as a GM fairly frequently, so either someone else GMs or no game happens.

And you've apparently never had a munchkin GM. The sort where the GM tells the story, and the players are along for the ride. The sort where it doesn't matter what you do, the Mary-Sue GMPC can do it better. The sort where if you do anything except what the GM wants you to do, it's negated by some twist of the rules, or by: "Because I'm the GM, that's why."

Here's a concept that is a little hard to grasp, but makes a huge difference:

THE GM IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PLAYERS

The GM is not god, he is just another player with more responsibility. He does not need to be the final authority on anything; you can have a fun game without the slightest trace of GM fiat. In short, the GM is not granted special powers based on his position; he is just one among many.

Sorry, it's been a while since I've played with jerks with personality problems who see the need to make themselves feel cool through overpowering their friends as GM in a roleplaying game. Hmm... maybe that's because I wouldn't spend time with a person like that anyway, while playing a roleplaying game or otherwise.

And yes, the GM IS granted special powers- he makes the whole friggin game universe! How much more powerful can you be? That's why, again, the GM needs to remember that it's not a contest, it's cooperative storytelling. The GM is granted vast powers but uses them to challenge the players in a reasonable way so that everyone has fun, NOT to compete with the players to see who's the toughest, my NPC or your PC. I'll give you a hint, it's the NPC, because the GM has the resources of every single other thing in the game universe at his disposal, potentially. The GM will come out on top if he wants to, at the expense of everyone else's fun. The point is, if the GM were worth a damn, he wouldn't care about that, he would be using his powers to create a game everyone can enjoy, and you guys wouldn't be having to keep an eye on him to keep him from "cheating."

I see your point, but I'm just sorry that you have a GM like that. Trust me, there is a better way!

[Cain]

Page 208, under matrix Tests; You use the program rating instead of an ability score, so I assume that you default to the program rating-1

That presumes A) That you have the program, B) At a rating high enough to be useful, and C) You have a commlink powerful enough to run it.

Pages 49-53.

I have those pages pulled up as we speak. There is *nothing* suggesting that a matrix search is more difficult than a contact search. In fact, there's discussion on how it's easier, and what you can do about it-- which doesn't, of course work. Limiting players with 6 dice to 6 rolls still takes forever.

In the back of On The Run, look under the Legwork/Cast of Characters section. For each Legwork topic (Nabo, JetBlack, etc.) there are two columns, one listing for Matrix thresholds (2, 4, 8, 16) and one for Contact thresholds (1, 2, 3, 4). I have a published print copy so I can't speak for the eBook version.

Yeah, but those aren't search thresholds, they're search modifiers. Here's what the book has to say:

Searching the Matrix
Some characters may prefer to search for information online,
checking through shadowy bulletin boards, data haven
archives, and underworld rumor channels rather than asking
around face-to-face. In this case, the character makes a Data
Search + Browse Extended Test with an interval of 1 minute.
Some topics may have a Data
Search Modifier listed, which is applied as a dice pool modifier to
the search test.

So, you actually get more dice for doing an online search. I'll grant you that my copy might be cursed; if you read the link above, you'll hear all about it. But that's what I see.

[Wesley Street]

Yeah, but those aren't search thresholds, they're search modifiers.

That may be some poor writing on the part of On the Run as I believe that in every other SR4 book I have modifiers are always listed as (+1, +2, -1, -2, etc.). My print copy just had straight numbers, no pluses or minuses.

I have a pretty big stack of older SR1-SR3 adventure modules and on the Legwork/Contacts tables, I've always run those numbers as thresholds, not modifiers. Unless I'm completely whacked out of my gourd. Which is always a possibility.

[Tarantula]

Cain, are you taking into account that thresholds for extended tests by RAW are 4, 8, 12, and 16 for tests? Instead of the usual 1,2,3,4.

[Whipstitch]

It's not always just cooperative storytelling-- there's also a fair bit of collaborative problem solving involved on the part of the players, (my groups have at times been very gamist and we still have a blast) and in such instances the GM is as much a referee as he is a creator. A ref is supposed to be impartial and make decisions based upon the rules and spirit of the game being played. A big part of being a good GM is realizing what hat to wear at what time, and recognizing when to reward player ingenuity and when to deny it for the sake of the game-- and you don't have to be a malicious asshole to fail that test from time to time. Rules lawyering in and of itself isn't just plain stupid, it's a natural consequence of players interpreting the game world through the filter of the rules. You have a rough idea of what your character is capable of due to the rules and as such it's not unreasonable to expect the GM to stick to those rules or at least communicate well enough that you're all viewing the world through the same prism before the game begins. For example, houseruling a powerful spell so it's not quite so dangerous may not be a grave crime, but a player should certainly know about it before they spend the bps/karma on the spell.

[Cain]

I agree with most of what you said, Whipstich.

But first, let me ask you a question-- who is more important, the ref or the players?

The GM does not need to be the rules arbiter. In fact, sometimes it's better that way-- someone with good GMing skills doesn't have to learn a whole rules system in order to run a game.

I've run games in systems I didn't know that well, but I had experts help me along. Within the game, if a rules call came up, I'd turn to him and ask. We'd figure it out together. It worked, because the players got involved in that aspect of the game. Heck, I've played in games that didn't require a GM at all!

[Matsci]

Yeah, but those aren't search thresholds, they're search modifiers. Here's what the book has to say:

So, you actually get more dice for doing an online search. I'll grant you that my copy might be cursed; if you read the link above, you'll hear all about it. But that's what I see.

No, they are threshholds. Only One of the tables has a modifyer, which is clearly listed, and that is K-Spot, which has looks like this

K-SPOT
Only old-timers remember him now, but in his day he was one of the guys to know if you were a young act looking for the big time.
Contacts: Music or entertainment industry old-timers or historians

Data Search Modifier: -2

Contact Search Results
Blah, blah blah

Sometimes I think that purposeful choose to interpret the rules in the most bizarre way possible.

[Cain]

No, they are threshholds. Only One of the tables has a modifyer, which is clearly listed, and that is K-Spot, which has looks like this

Then why make such a big deal about the Search modifiers?

At any event, the legwork can still be more easily accomplished by a decker, simply because they get Extended tests. Contacts do not.

[Tarantula]

Then why make such a big deal about the Search modifiers?

At any event, the legwork can still be more easily accomplished by a decker, simply because they get Extended tests. Contacts do not.

Again, extended tests, at 4x the thresholds.

Contacts need 1-4 hits to get all info.

Data searches need 4-16 to get all info.

So, unless you're rolling (over the course of the extended test) at least 4x as many dice, you're losing out. Even then, I'm pretty sure you're compounding the chances of glitching at least one of those tests by having multiple rolls.

[Matsci]

Then why make such a big deal about the Search modifiers?

At any event, the legwork can still be more easily accomplished by a decker, simply because they get Extended tests. Contacts do not.

I don't see there being a great deal about the modifiers. One sentence isn't normally considered a big deal.

Both Get Extended tests

Secondly, the contact can be asked to “ask around.� In this case the contact makes a Charisma + Connection Extended Test
with an interval of 1 hour.
Count each hit scored on these tests cumulatively and look them up on the Contact column in the appropriate topic table
below. If a contact has accumulated 3 hits regarding a topic, for example, then he has all the information listed under 0, 1, 2, and
3 hits on the table.

[Cantankerous]

Here's a concept that is a little hard to grasp, but makes a huge difference:

THE GM IS NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE PLAYERS

The GM is not god, he is just another player with more responsibility. He does not need to be the final authority on anything; you can have a fun game without the slightest trace of GM fiat. In short, the GM is not granted special powers based on his position; he is just one among many.

QFT!

The single worst idea in the history, of RPGs, IMO, was the idiocy of using the term Master in relationship to the position that the person running the game holds. Too many people with delusions of grandeur took it as license to act like pricks and FAR TOO MANY people who held the position let it subconsciously color their thinking.


Isshia

[Tarantula]

QFT!

The single worst idea in the history, of RPGs, IMO, was the idiocy of using the term Master in relationship to the position that the person running the game holds. Too many people with delusions of grandeur took it as license to act like pricks and FAR TOO MANY people who held the position let it subconsciously color their thinking.


Isshia

Yes and no. I think having one GM making final decisions for rules tends to make having a cohesive game world much simpler. Not that a group of people working together can't make agreements on how the game world works, but having one person with the vision of the gameworld that is consistent definitely can help out.