Upgrading Cyberware, How do you calculate your players upgrades? Options

[i101]

The informations I can find on page 128, within Augmentations help me only how to handle implant surgery damage and "essence holes". But how do I calculate the price? Lets say a player wants to upgrade his Move-by-Wire (1) System upto Move-by-Wire (2), and lets say he/she has the required connections and ressources. Would he/she have to pay only the diffrence of new-price minus old-price (+availability) to get the old system upgraded? Or would he/she have to get a complete new version of the system, so that the only alternative is to spend money in height of the full price (+availability) and sell the old system.

And while we're on the subject of cyberware.. For how much do your players get their cyberware/bioware sold? So far I gave them between 1/3 and 1/4 of the price. Depending on what kind of piece they wanted to sell... SOTA usually for 1/3.

[Sir_Psycho]

You could houserule it, but I'm pretty sure you have to actually remove the system and get a better one. Also, don't forget that you're going to want to pay the surgeon who puts the wires in.

[reepneep]

The way I've always thought it should be done is to trade your old ware to the cyberdoc in exchange for waiving the surgery cost. Nice and simple this way. Needless to say, this only works if you're replacing one piece of ware with another.

[i101]

Thanks guys. I just checked the BBB and Augmentations again, but I yet cant find anything on upgrades and prices. I think I will houserule it this way: Players can upgrade their piece of cyberware for the difference price, the upgraded version has to be the same grade (standard/alpha/...). The basecost are furthermore modified by the new pieces availability (forbidden +50%), and like Sir_Psycho said additonal cost would be to pay the surgeon who puts the wires in.

I think I havent forget anything.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

You cannot increase the rating of any piece of augmentation you possess. To "upgrade", it must be replaced with a higher-rating version.

In your example, you would pay for a Move-by-Wire 2, & it would replace your Move-by-Wire 1. You have now upgraded, & have a used Move-by-Wire 1 to do whatever you feel like with.

[i101]

Muspellsheimr do you have any references on this?

[Tarantula]

It doesn't say you can upgrade, so you can't.

Can I upgrade my armored clothing to an armored jacket by paying the difference? No? Then why should this work?

[i101]

It doesn't say you can upgrade, so you can't.

Can I upgrade my armored clothing to an armored jacket by paying the difference? No? Then why should this work?

By your logic it could also mean: neither does it say I have to replace, so I can upgrade. A move-by-wire-system could be upgraded by adding new processors, increase and adjust system functions and spread the already available system on more parts of your body to increase reaction time. Another example would be dermal plating. Your streetdoc could upgrade your level 1 dermal plating by increasing the consistence and amount of hard plastic and metal fibers that are bonded to your skin. I am no cybertechnologist thats why I ask for references, and I honestly doubt that you can compare armored clothing with cyberware..

[Tarantula]

There is no special rules that allows upgrading of cyberware. To be technical, you would have to pay surgery costs (if in use) for removing the old stuff, then buy the new stuff, pay for installing the new stuff, then go through fencing the old stuff.

Those rules all exist. Rules for upgrading don't.

You don't have to replace, you can have MBW 1 and MBW 2 in at the same time, they just won't work together.

[i101]

It is not that I dont understand you. My diffrent point of view comes from the name of the topic on page 127, Augmentations: Replacing/Upgrading Cyberware and Bioware. Why havent the devs called this then Replacing Cyberware and Bioware, if Upgrading doenst exist?

[Tarantula]

Because, right below that, it says, "Most augmentations, whether bioware, cyberware, genetech,
or nanocybernetics, have an associated Essence Cost. When
a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded,
this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole�—a disparity between
the total Essence Cost of her implants (see Cyberware and
Bioware, p. 84, SR4) and her current Essence."
Which heavily implies that you do remove the old, the insert the new.

Why? Because, the same process is used for replacing one piece of ware (usually damaged in the case of replacement) with the same thing. Or replacing it with a better model, also known as upgrading.

[Muspellsheimr]

Replacing refers to removing your Wired Reflexes & replacing it with Move-by-Wire, or removing damaged 'ware & replacing it with functional 'ware. Upgrading refers to removing a piece of 'ware & replacing it with a higher rating version.

You cannot improve augmentations without replacing them for the same reason you cannot (RL) improve your video card - you must obtain a new, higher-grade one. Or in-game, for the same reason you cannot upgrade your Rating 4 Software - you must code/purchase a new, Rating 5. Same with Vision Enhancement, or anything else in the game.

Improving your current Move-by-Wire without replacing it involves having it removed, sent to the factory, & essencially having it re-built at a higher rating. For all practical purposes, it is a new piece of 'ware, & it would have been cheaper, easier, & faster to simply purchase a higher-rating version to begin with.

[i101]

So far I thougt that replacing and upgrading are two diffrent things. Replacing ment to me to turn somehing out and place another its stead. Upgrading is to improve the performance of a thing by adding better components or parts. However, it looks like in Shadowrun those two words have the same implication. Guess I got it all wrong then.

Thanks for clarification guys!

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

You cannot improve augmentations without replacing them for the same reason you cannot (RL) improve your video card - you must obtain a new, higher-grade one.

Bad example - once upon a time, at least, you could expand your vRAM, just like you can upgrade your motherboard's RAM.

And frankly, I've never really understood the need for surgery costs & rules...it works just as well to say it lumps the cost of the surgery into the total cost of the implant. The only critical part would be the enforced downtime...and since I've seen plenty of characters go from overflow to full health in two days...it seems rather pointless.

And since cyberware is so much cheaper in SR4, there really shouldn't even be a need for the "trade-in discount" argument.