Grunt Survival Guide, How to kill PCs with low-powered opposition. Options

[knasser]

I want to make low-level opposition threatening to powerful PCs and I'm looking for suitable tactics / methods to do this.

I thought it would be a fun project to tax the imaginations of the Dumpshock community to see how many ways we can come up with to do this. I'm afraid that I seem to be reaching a creative block on this. My reasoning is a desire to keep a dangerous and feel to the setting in the face of indestructible trolls, super-fast samurai, etc.

For example:

1. Molotov cocktails: Whilst their 5P of damage is not particularly scary to the classic giant troll, note that Molotov cocktails will also ignite / trigger combustible items carried. They are also cheap. Outfit gangers with Molotovs and target any character that has a habit of loading themselves down with grenades, explosives and Ex-Ex ammo.

Realistic, but a threat to even very tough PCs,

Similarly:

2. Use speeding vehicles as battering ram with which to run down PCs. Cars and vans are readily available to Lonestar and other security forces. At speed, a vehicle can do considerable damage to a PC.

3. Environmental Hazard: Light fires in enclosed spaces, depriving PCs of oxygen, causing smoke inhalation, fire damage. Should ideally be combined with some sort of trap to keep the PCs in the area, such as jamming beams or furniture under door handles. Very suitable for gangers on their home turf with lots of dilapidated buildings at their disposal.

4. Fake retreats: Have a fleeing target lead PCs past other opposition who are concealed so that they can emerge and attack from all sides. This works best if there is a particular reason to want to stop the fleeing person or with bloodthirsty must-kill-everything parties.

5. Use trip wires or concealed holes to bring down PCs and follow with multiple melee attackers before they can get up.

That's all I can think of for now. Can anyone think of number 6 ? Anything that low-level oppositions can do to make them dangerous again is the general idea.

[Prime Mover]

Ambush, explosives, chemicals/drugs, sheer numbers.....

[Chrysalis]

You burn tyres and it creates black smoke not only will it give you cancer in 20 years it will also create dense enough smoke thermographics won't work.

Smoke+lots of shooting+built up area+boobie traps= very dead PCs

You entice the player characters to run into a room and close the door behind them. Pass a few grenades from through the sallyport or pour pitch into the room and set it on fire. You can also use a flamewthrower if the PCs knock.

All characters in melee gain a +1 from each team mate. Best way to utilize is this is by having 15 of them. Even your combat adept is going to be hard pressed when a lowly ganger with a melee skill of 8 suddenly gains +4 from all his other gangers.

Contact explosive grenades on poles (also known as bombadiers) worked up until the 19th century and should work now.

Kill spaces with 50 caliber machinegun emplacements. Kill spaces are marked out long alleyways where the only way out is by going past a machinegun, nothing to hide behind. Also known as turkey shoots.


Bayonet charges.

P.S. Use your characters advantages against them. So they have a lot of guns and superior firepower, so let them fire away like it is 4th of July. Once they run low on ammo now you can actually start firing back.

If you can boobie trap their car fine. If the car is blown up boobie trap it anyway. You can also disable it by a hundred and one ways. The best one is a rubberband around a grenade, pull the pin and place it in the gas tank. As the gasoline eats away at the rubber band the grenade explodes. Of course most modern cars have a kevlar reinforcement, but this is 2070 and lawsuits are a thing of the past.

[Dashifen]

Doesn't the friends in melee bonus cap out at +4? Still a nice bonus for your gangers, though.

I've had great success with the "hit them with the car" technique that knasser mentions above. Don't forget, too, that the car will keep going if they shoot the driver. And, let them roll edge to see if the driver's foot collapses on the pedal and actually accelerates the car toward them!

Use (trid) phantasm to make them think they're caught between two groups of gangers and they may end up shooting at the non-corporeal foes.

Drop things on them from out of windows. Even household objects (e.g., a toaster or microwave) will do some pretty nasty things to a person it hits after falling four stories. Plus, checking the vertical axis during a firefight is not generally performed (I'd require a dedicated Observe in Detail with 2 or 3 hits to say someone glances up) so people shooting at them from above is pretty effective, too. Might require an ambush, though.

Tripod braced full auto weapons can be fun. Not too common on the streets, but not outside the realm of possibility if we go from gangers to a more organized criminal or full on criminal organizations.

Reinforcements can ruin anyone's day, especially if they come from an unexpected direction.

Innocent bystanders can provide distractions, collateral damage, and cover (hostages) which may make a more moral team flinch and a less moral team somewhat notorious.

And, of course: overcast stunball (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[hyzmarca]

Don't forget tunnels, the well-concealed sort that a grown man will have trouble crawling through. Proper use of hidden tunnels and secret passages will effectively mimic teleportation from the POV of the PCs in terrain that the opposition knows well or controls. Don't forget to Make use of Home Ground when applicable, as well.

[damaleon]

Don't forget concentrated fire, each attack between defender's actions reduce their dice pool by 1.

Say 3 gangers, one with an SMG and the others have light pistols, are attacking 1 runner. The gangers have 1 pass and the runner has 3 IP.

The initiative goes Runner, SMG ganner, Pistol Ganger 1, Pistol Ganger 2, Runner, Runner for all passes of the Combat Turn. The gangers can all attack twice as soon as their initiative comes up, or you can adust for full effect. Say the runner is at medium range, has a reaction of 8 and dodge of 4, and goes on full defense for his first IP. The gangers all have 6 dice pools to attack, SMG has 3 point recoil comp, pistols 1 point.

With everything out in the open, parenthesis will give attackers then defender's dice to avoid:
SMG - Short Wide Burst (5 vs 12)
SMG - Short Wide Burst (3 vs 11)
Pistol 1 - Semi Auto (5 vs 12)
Pistol 1 - Semi Auto (5 vs 11)
Pistol 2 - Semi Auto (5 vs 10)
Pistol 2 - Semi Auto (5 vs 9)

Not likely to hit like that, but if the SMG ganger delays until the pistols fire and takes aim with his first simple action, it goes:
Pistol 1 - Semi Auto (5 vs 14)
Pistol 1 - Semi Auto (5 vs 13)
Pistol 2 - Semi Auto (5 vs 12)
Pistol 2 - Semi Auto (5 vs 11)
SMG - Take Aim
SMG - Short Wide Burst (6 vs 8) You get decent chance to damage

You can make that 7 vs 8 by giving the ganger Tracer rounds. Make it a long wide burst after taking aim and it's 4 vs 5 dice (6 vs 5 with tracer rounds).

Of course this is all out in the open, without cover modifiers.

In melee, don't forget that in addition to "friends in melee" you can get "superior position" modifiers (attacking from high ground or from behind). The -1 per attack defended applies as well for avoiding it.

[knasser]

Wow. Some good stuff there already. My particular favourites are the burning tires (because it's so incredibly low resource and just downright nasty - I'll be using that), the dropping objects from great heights (I'm thinking baths, toilets and sinks here, though the odd sofa might be good) and the tunnels.

The tunnels might be hard to work into most scenarios, but you could certainly simulate it with just a refuse / debris filled derelict building. Alternately, it might work really well in any environment that has restricted space and small opponents, e.g. dwarves.

@Damaleon: That's a useful point about the ordering of the attackers.

[Ryu]

Distributed duties - the heavy hitters can be slow, because the task of the other team members is to take down the runners defense pools. Being larger they get better DR, defending the heavy weapons. There is no reason not to hide behind full cover until your time comes.

@Damaleon: The penalty for subsequent attacks is counted for the defender, so the defense dp does not refresh until the next IP of the defender.

[DWC]

I used to be a big fan of car accidents, back in SR2 and 3, when they were a dramatic way to plunge everyone into chaos. In SR4, evidently all the safety features developed over the last 80 years were done away with and the same crashes are lethal, so it's not a device I can throw around anymore.

But if you want to kill all the PCs, pretty much any jackass with a garbage truck will do a great job of it, especially if you can catch them while the rigger has hopped out of the van to go take a leak and get another Slurpee.

[toturi]

I thought it would be a fun project to tax the imaginations of the Dumpshock community to see how many ways we can come up with to do this. I'm afraid that I seem to be reaching a creative block on this. My reasoning is a desire to keep a dangerous and feel to the setting in the face of indestructible trolls, super-fast samurai, etc.

There's always the all perceptive and foreknowledged mystic adept.

"Everything is as I have foreseen."

How do you keep a dangerous feel to the setting when the PC and player already knows what you as the GM are planning to do? The only thing that nobody knows is how the dice will turn out.

[Zen Shooter01]

Molotov cocktails can be more a problem than an asset for the NPCs carrying them. They are, after all, bottles full of gasoline with fuel soaked rags sticking out of the top. Glitches, critical glitches, and the PCs aiming at the cocktails can make the opposition less dangerous very quickly, not more.

Narcojet is fun. Inexpensive, available, and quite a surprise on a shuriken, knife, or sword.

[Squinky]

Tasers are cheap, extremely effective, and could easily be acquired for a ganger.

[psychophipps]

Wow. Some good stuff there already. My particular favourites are the burning tires (because it's so incredibly low resource and just downright nasty - I'll be using that), the dropping objects from great heights (I'm thinking baths, toilets and sinks here, though the odd sofa might be good) and the tunnels.

The tunnels might be hard to work into most scenarios, but you could certainly simulate it with just a refuse / debris filled derelict building. Alternately, it might work really well in any environment that has restricted space and small opponents, e.g. dwarves.

@Damaleon: That's a useful point about the ordering of the attackers.

One issue with the tire trick is that I've been reading up that petroleum-based tire products are on the outs. They're making better and stronger tires with other materials now and there's no guarantee that the future ones will burn black or really at all.

[Janice]

1. Molotov cocktails: Whilst their 5P of damage is not particularly scary to the classic giant troll, note that Molotov cocktails will also ignite / trigger combustible items carried. They are also cheap. Outfit gangers with Molotovs and target any character that has a habit of loading themselves down with grenades, explosives and Ex-Ex ammo.

Bad assumption to make. There's nothing stating that any of the explosives PCs carry are ignited by heat. Some may use impact, some may use electrical charges.

[psychophipps]

IEDs are great little tricks, ammonium nitrate fertilizer and some sort of fuel are still freely available in SR after all. Small explosives and booby traps can be another fun one that I'll use in my next game as I've been slacking in that department lately.

The best way is to mix everything up. Yeah, they can handle gangers with chains and pistols coming at them in a frontal assault. But can they handle gangers with chains and pistols, and a ganger sniper, and other gangers behind cover tossing tear gas, and another group of gangers from behind throwing grenades...and...and...

Most GMs get their grunts punkslapped because they play them like punks that deserve to get slapped down. Just keep in mind that while the NPCs have a job to do, they're not overly excited about getting dead. By simply having them use cover, not stepping out like mannequins without cover fires and "SHOOT HERE!" signs, and giving them even a little of brains you'll really up the ante for your PCs.

[psychophipps]

Bad assumption to make. There's nothing stating that any of the explosives PCs carry are ignited by heat. Some may use impact, some may use electrical charges.

Exactly. Ammo blowing off in a magazine isn't even close to as dangerous as ammo being fired correctly from a firearm. In fact, the FBI was walking around in the wake of the Waco fire without any worries while ammo was still cooking off now and again.

Military explosives are incredibly stable. You can stomp on them, shoot them, light them on fire, stomp on and/or shoot them while they're on fire, and they won't detonate. Once you get into mil-spec explosives they unilaterally require a HE detonation in contact with them (like a blasting cap) to get them to explode. This allows for better safety and exponentially easier transportation.

[knasser]

Bad assumption to make. There's nothing stating that any of the explosives PCs carry are ignited by heat. Some may use impact, some may use electrical charges.

Well if it's sealed plastique, perhaps not. But the rules state that if set on fire, items make a resistance test based on barrier ratings, x2 if not particularly flammable. I went so far as to look up how grenades work and timed grenades (opposed to impact-triggered grenades) seem to be triggered by an internal chemical reaction that generates heat. So I figured being coated in burning liquid could trigger a grenade. I took the barrier rating for frag grenades to be a "reinforced material" from the SR4,BBB. The next one up from that was concrete and so far as I know, grenades are designed to blow apart so I went with it. And with your impact triggered explosives, again they actually seem to be triggered by heat generated by a chemical reaction started by the impact mixing the reactive chemicals. As for the incenidary arrows... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, already tried this one and the troll managed to dodge. Got a fright though when he realised what the consequences would have been. He has since decided not to walk around with ten-plus grenades, and a big bundle of explosive and incendiary arrows, so that's a result even if I didn't manage to blow him up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Keep 'em coming if anyone's got any more, this is useful stuff.

[ElFenrir]

I'm also a sucker for plain ol' tactics like using cover, numbers, Home Ground. I also vote for things like tazers(for gangers), or SnS(for low-level guards). First, they do Stun damage, so you won't be killing the PCs outright, which i try to avoid unless they do really, really, dumb things(oh, I have them use real ammo, too. Don't get me wrong. PCs CAN die in my campaigns. I just don't outwardly TRY to do so, it's not a GM vs. PC game.) Second, stun damage meters are smaller, and electric can do a nice job of bypassing armor(there is nonconductivity...and you know? If they get tazed and their stuff stolen or something once, it might make them invest in it. I really don't mind my PCs playing smart, too.) Stun batons are nice, as well.

Using things like Jazz and burning Edge to get extra passes helps.

Also, I use ''morale'' in some ways. If the gangers/guards start to get wiped, they will probably pull back, and get reinforcements. If the PCs don't persue, they might well come back with a lot MORE reinforcements and the PCs would have expended some resources dealing with the first bunch. Again, a lot of these people aren't suicidal, and they'll try to stack the odds in their favor.

And of course, I have my own little opinion which I have a feeling a lot of people won't agree with, but that is I believe there SHOULD be opposition that makes the PCs feel powerful, as a skilled shadowrunner is, IMO, a bit higher on the food chain than a common ganger or grunt. There should also be opposition that makes the PCs feel that they AREN'T, however, the HIGHEST on the food chain.

If every single gang the PCs end up fighting are as well-armed and well-coordinated as the SAS, then IMO, it loses a little something. Again, others might not agree. I AM all for trying to make the low level guys at least a bit more threatening, but trying to turn them into the Special Forces might be going a bit too far. (Not saying you're trying to do that. In fact, a lot of these tactics are just fine. But I've seen instances in the past where a bunch of teenage squatter gangers would be using tactics that you'd find in the Art of War or something.)

[Cantankerous]

Positioning is the king of tactics. When you go after gang bangers, or corp boys, or whatever, in THEIR home territory you should expect trouble. Simple expedients like murder holes, booby traps and the like are massive equalizers. Chasing people in dark areas you better have low light AND be observant, or you've got problems. Simply putting oil or caltrops on the floor in an area that the gangers know to keep to the side of the room in, when it's dark, is a massive plus and it doesn't show up on Thermo either.

A bunch of Squatters in the Puyallup Barrens (Tarislar) gave one of my better Runner teams nightmares when they had to go in and find guy X and take him alive. Finally in an unusually brutal move for them, they started capping hostages to get the squatters to turn the guy over, simply because even the team tank was at 4 or five boxes of damage and everyone else was worse off and they hadn't even ever set eyes on the guy they were after yet. Masses with booby traps and molotv cocktails, which were nastier in third than they are in fourth and terrain that they knew and the Runners didn't meant a real lesson was learned for the Runners who went in much lighter than usual because "What are a bunch of squatters going to do to stop US?".


Isshia

[hobgoblin]

on the topic of ammo going of from fire, as always i think the mythbusters did a test on that by dumping anything from 9mm to .50 into a campfire.

as for the topic itself, i dont see anyone talking about freeze foam yet.

a couple of grenade of rating 6 should make for a surprise (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

or maybe some similar rating adhesives? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Ryu]

as for the topic itself, i dont see anyone talking about freeze foam yet.

I used it recently on my group. The next step could have been suppressive fire into the foam, but they were willing to talk at that point. Throw it on the teams mage to break LOS to anything.

[Zen Shooter01]

Hand grenades in SR are frighteningly inexpensive and easy to get (I've had to make house rules to prevent PCs from starting the game with hundreds of them). Two gangers spending Edge to get extra passes and flinging HE grenades as fast as ever they can will ruin any evening out.

And Edge is cheap, too - there's no reason gangers shouldn't have it. Build a ganger template with Edge 6 and your PCs will grow to hate you.

One of the ways you can buy Edge 6 is with a big fat drug addiction, preferably to something that gives them extra IPs, or makes them immune to pain, or both.

[eidolon]

Most GMs get their grunts punkslapped because they play them like punks that deserve to get slapped down. Just keep in mind that while the NPCs have a job to do, they're not overly excited about getting dead. By simply having them use cover, not stepping out like mannequins without cover fires and "SHOOT HERE!" signs, and giving them even a little of brains you'll really up the ante for your PCs.

This is 100% win. It's incredibly common in just about every game/system I've ever played that mooks are played up as well, mooks. In some systems, they're even supposed to be ridiculously easy to kill (SW, Feng Shui). But in Shadowrun, as lethal as combat is (should be, at least IMO), the best way to keep the playing field even is to just field your NPCs as though they had some common sense. They don't just stand at the end of the hallway shooting back until shot, they don't just sit behind the same crate for three rounds waiting for a grenade to land, etc.

[Pendaric]

I will second (third?) this too. I used defencesive architecture and simple tactics to turn mooks into a serious threat. On occasion the party get to big for their britches and think they can ingore the mooks. Then the third rate gang boss has his gang nearly hand them the one way ticket to the afterlife. Five to one odds with a little brains balances the scales a lot.

[toturi]

I will second (third?) this too. I used defencesive architecture and simple tactics to turn mooks into a serious threat. On occasion the party get to big for their britches and think they can ingore the mooks. Then the third rate gang boss has his gang nearly hand them the one way ticket to the afterlife. Five to one odds with a little brains balances the scales a lot.

Depends. SR3 Regenerating Immune to Normal Weapon Mage gets ambushed by 10 gang bangers with SMGs. Mage is last (wo)man standing, with not a scratch. The trick is to know when you can truly ignore the mooks.

This is 100% win. It's incredibly common in just about every game/system I've ever played that mooks are played up as well, mooks. In some systems, they're even supposed to be ridiculously easy to kill (SW, Feng Shui). But in Shadowrun, as lethal as combat is (should be, at least IMO), the best way to keep the playing field even is to just field your NPCs as though they had some common sense. They don't just stand at the end of the hallway shooting back until shot, they don't just sit behind the same crate for three rounds waiting for a grenade to land, etc.

They sit behind the same crate for 3 rounds because to do otherwise would mean standing in the hallway shooting back until shot. And if you do run the NPCs by the numbers, you would realise some of them are stupid and don't have common sense. Why? Take a look at their stats - Let's see gangers... OK, we were talking Street Gang, Professional Rating 1, blah, blah... Ah, here we are: Intuition 2, Logic 2. Sure, let's take a look at the Lieutanant then... Int 3 and Log 2, not much better. Stupid is as stupid does, people. Dumbasses should not exhibit smart behavior. Heck, smart people sometimes act stupidly (call it a Critical Glitch).