Expanded Magician Quality Options

[Aurelius]

This is an idea for making magicians more variable than per standard SR4. The system is likely open to some degree of abuse, which is a cost of any modular system, but i would like feedback on any serious problems, as well as other comments you may have.
Notes: The critter powers may be problematic, and deserve oversight when chosen, and the prices may not be right. also, i need more positive 5p qualities to fill up for characters to the 10, 20 or 30 points. Finally, the ordinary Physical Adept is likely to disappear under these rules, since it is easy to add some other funky power to him. As some may notice, the Magical Talent quality is based on the same model as the Changeling Qualities in Runner's Companion. However, characters cannot buy additional Talent Qualities with their normal Quality points
Edit 1: Minor Edits to clarify. Put Mesmeric Talent and Dual-natured qualities under observation.
Edit 2: Clarified physical adepts. Put Concealment under observation. Added explanation of Talent qualities. Added sample packages. Added more notes where i am unsure of the best implementation.
Edit 3: Expanded Spell Knack quality to explain the interaction with the Physical Adept quality.
Edit 4: Added Favored Spell, Metaplanar Adept, Urban Adept and the Common Talent Pattern negative quality
Edit 5: Altered cost of Concealment to 20 or 25. Altered cost of Mesmeric Adept to 25. Added Gift of Silence and Gift of Mastery


New Quality: Magical Talent 5, 10 or 15 points
The character has a some sort of magical talent, accompagnied by the some kind of drawbacks, since magic never manifests perfectly in anyone. The character also starts with a Magic attribute of 1, which can be improved as normal. Also, the character gains the ability to use the enchanting skill as normal.
5 BP: Choose 10 points of positive Talent Qualities and 5 points of negative Talent Qualities.
10 BP: Choose 20 points of positive Talent Qualities and 10 points of negative Talent Qualities.
15 BP: Choose 30 points of positive Talent Qualities and 15 points of negative Talent Qualities.
Note: if used, this quality replaces the following other qualities: Adept, Aspected Magician, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept and Spell/Spirit Knack.

Talent Qualities
Talent Qualities are a special class of positive and negative qualities that can only be taken with the points gained from the Magical Talent Quality. You cannot take additional negative Talent Qualities over the ones allowed by the level of Magical Talent you have taken in order to gain more positive Qualities. Note: should you be allowed to do that?

Positive Talent Qualities:

Astral Talent 5, 10 or 15 points
The character can learn the astral combat and assensing skills. If this talent is chosen at 5 points, the character can astrally perceive, but cannot astrally project. If chosen at 10 points, the character can both astrally perceive and astrally project. If chosen at 15 points, the character can both astrally perceive and astrally project, and is particularly strong in astral space, gaining a +1 attributes bonus to his Astral Attributes.

Conjuring 5, 10 or 15 points.
The character can summon spirits and learn skills from the Conjuring skill group.
If this quality is chosen at 5 points, choose a single spirit type from the character's tradition. This type of spirit, as well as watchers and ally spirits are the only kind of spirits the character can summon, though he can still banish other types of spirits.
If chosen at 10 points, the character can summon all 5 spirit types from his tradition.
If chosen at 15 points the character gains the benefits of the 10-point version of the quality, and is also an unusually talented summoner, gaining a +1 skill bonus to all skills in the Conjuring skill group.

Counterspelling Adept 5 points
The character can learn and use the counterspelling skill.
Note: this quality is included for free in the 10-point version of the Sorcery quality.

Favored One 10 points
The character gains the critter power of Guard.

Favored Spell 10 points
A part of your Talent is an attunement for a specific spell, likely one that you learned early, and on your own.
Choose a single spell the character knows. The character does not suffer penalties for sustaining this spell. This can be used with the spell from the Spell Knack Talent Quality.

Gift of Mastery 10 points
The character gains the power of animal control for a class of animals appropriate to his background.

Gift of Silence 15 points
The character gains the critter power of Silence. No-one will hear you scream!


Mesmeric Adept 25 points Note: This Talent is under suspicion of being utterly overpowered. Heavy GM discretion recommended
The character gains the critter power of Influence.

Metamagic Adept 10 points
The character knows and can use a single metamagic ability, even though he is not initiated. He counts as initiate grade 0 for effects depending on initiate grade.

Metaplanar Adept 5 points
You can journey to the metaplanes through meditation, without requiring you to be capable of any sort of astral perception or projection. If you initiate, halve the normal times required to prepare for a metaplanar journey.

Physical Adept 10 points Edited to clarify how the Physad's magic score works. This might not be the best way to do it, however.
The character gains 1 power point for each point of magic, as per the normal Adept Quality. If the character has any version of the Sorcery or Conjuring qualities, he must take the Magical Power adept power in order to gain a use for them. He uses his full magic score with any critter powers gained from magical talents.

Poltergeist 10p
The character gains the critter power of Magic Fingers.

Shadow Adept 10 points
The character gains the critter power of Shadow Cloak.

Spell Knack 5 points Edited to clarify for physical adepts.
Choose a single spell. The character knows and can cast this spell. He does not need the spellcasting skill, however, instead he uses Magic+Willpower for the spellcasting roll. He cannot use ritual sorcery with the spell. This power is incompatible with the Sorcery quality.
If this quality is taken with the Physical Adept quality, the adept exceptionally does not need to take the Magical Power adept power to use it. However, he must develop the Spellcasting skill, he cannot cast the spell with a simple Magic+Willpower roll.

Sorcery 5, 10 or 15 points.
The character can cast spells and learn skills from the Sorcery skill Group. If this quality is chosen at 5 points, choose two spell categories. Those are the only kinds of spells the character can cast, and he can only counterspell spells from these categories, as well. If chosen at 10 points, the character can cast spells from all spell categories, and counterspell all of them as well. If chosen at 15 points, the character gains the benefits of the 10-point version fo this quality and is also unusually adept at Sorcery, granting him a +1 skill bonus to all skills in the Sorcery group.


Subtle Magic 5 points
You have always been more subtly at using magic than other magicians. It's some small trick that others just can't seem to grasp. Increase the threshold for detecting your use of magic (BBB pp 168) by 2+your initiate grade.

Talent Manifestation (Positive) 5, 10 or 15 points
Choose a positive Metagenetic quality from Runner's Companion. The character developed that quality along with his Talent for some inexplicable reason. Should the character ever be reduced to 0 Magic, this quality will also disappear.

Telepathic Adept 10 points
The character gains the critter power of Mind Link.

The Hidden Way 20 or 25 points This might be too powerful too, like Influence, but has the benefit of aiding the entire group, and not just let the magician Influence away the need for any other character. Also, it allows super-stealthy ninja adepts, which is a plus in my book.
The character gains the critter power of Concealment. If this quality is taken at 20 points, the power is Self Only. If taken at 25 points, it works as described in the BBB.

Urban Adept 5 points
You are specially attuned to the mana flows of the city. You likely grew up on the streets, or otherwise have a close relationship with cities, such as being a detective, taxi driver or architect. You have also grown much more accustomed to the variations in mana that occurs where large groups gather.
You can ignore the effects of Rating 1 positive background counts. Rating 2 and higher positive background counts, and all mana ebbs affect you normally. You can also gather enchanting materials in urban areas (unlike other mages, who can only find them in areas of pristine wilderness). You use Survival as normal to locate the materials, but use the Etiquette skill to retrieve them.

Negative Talent Qualities

Astral Beacon -10 points
As the Astral Beacon flaw. SR4 (page

Cannot Bind spirits/Can only use bound spirits -5p
More common in the fifties, before conjuring was as well-understood as it is today, some magicians still suffer from this limitation.
If you have the Cannot Bind Spirits flaw, you are simply Incompetent in the Binding Skill.
If you can only use bound spirits, you are Incompetent in the Summoning skill, but can use the Bind spirits directly from the metaplanes, you do not need to Summon them beforehand.
You must have a version of the Conjuring quality in order to take this.

Common Talent Pattern -5 points
Your talent takes one of the most common forms. There are many magically active people with the same kind of talent as you, and such a pattern of talent is less likely to come with strong drawbacks or geasa.
If you have the exact level of the Magical Talent Quality and the exact positive Magical Talents of one of the entries on the list below, you can take this negative talent quality. It provides no drawbacks, but makes your character a little less exceptional.
Common Adept: 5-point Magical Talent, with 10p Physical Adept Talent Quality.
Common Mage: 15-point Magical Talent, with 10p Astral Access, 10p Conjuring and 10p Sorcery
Common Conjurer: 10-point Magical Talent, with 5p Astral Access and 15p Conjuring.
Common Sorcerer: 10-point Magical Talent, with 5p Astral Access and 15p Sorcery.
Note: The gamemaster is encouraged to modify this list to reflect his vision of the gameworld.

Dual-Natured -15p Note: This talent is under revision. It might be best if it required the ability to astrally perceive. The other option is that it replaces the 5p version of Astral Access, allowing free astral perception, which is how being dual-natured usually works. We could then either rule it to remove reduce the cost of the the 10 and 15 point versions of astral access by 5 points, or let them stand at their normal cost.
This quality only manifests in magicians with the very strongest talents, and they are thus usually given some respect, even though it is a hindrance in many ways. The character is dual-natured as per the critter power of the same name, and does not suffer the usual penalties for perceiving the physical and astral worlds at the same time.

Geas -5, -10 or -15 points
The character's magic is somehow dependent on external circumstances, either due to self-image or tradition. If you take the -5 point version of this, it takes the form of a Power Ritual. This works like the geas quality from Street Magic, and you choose a geas condition as normal, but the character never risks permanent magic loss for breaking the geas. If you take the -10 point version, is an ordinary Geas, as per Street Magic. The -15 point version is an Absolute Geas. The character simply cannot perform magic while the geas is broken, though he also avoids the risk of permanent magic loss.

Obscure Tradition -5 or -15 points
Your magical tradition is not common or well-known in the campaign area, and you have difficulty getting hold of magical materials, instructors or people to perform ritual sorcery with.
-5: Increase the Availability of all summoning materials, magical lodge materials, magical instructors and spell formulas for your tradition by 4.
-15: You must make all summoning materials, magical lodge materials, and spell formulas yourself. If there are anyone else who can provide such materials, or indeed is a member of your tradition at all, they require an entire adventure of their own to get in contact with.

Registered Magician -5 or -10 points
This is a variant of the SINner quality. The character is on file as a registered magician, along with his astral signature. If the -10 point version is taken, the character is on file as a criminal registered magician.

Talent-Induced Allergy -5, -10 or -15 points
This negative quality works like the Allergy quality in the BBB, except the allergy does not have to be something that could physically provoke an allergy. Common examples include rural areas, urban areas, churches, toxic areas and mundane 'antimagical' wards.

Talent-Induced Compulsion -5, -10 or -15 points
Choose a compulsion as per the Runner's Companion flaw Poor Self Control, pr a Mania or Phobia as per Augmentation. The character developed this compulsion along with his talent, and they seem to be linked. Such compulsions are often more exotic than those ordinary people develop.

Talent Manifestation (Negative) -5, -10 or -15 points
Choose a negative Metagenetic quality from Runner's Companion. The character developed that quality along with his Talent for some inexplicable reason. Should the character ever be reduced to 0 Magic, this quality will also disappear.

Sample Talent Packages, to clarify:

Classic Shaman: 15p Magical Talent. Talent Qualities. 10p Sorcery, 10p Conjuring, 10p Astral Access, Cannot Bind Spirit -5p, choose 10 points of other negative qualities.
Mystic Adept: 15p Magical talent. Talent Qualities: 10p Physical Adept, 10p Sorcery, 10p Conjuring. Choose 15 points of negative qualities.
Classic Sorcerer Adept: 10p Magical Talent. Talent Qualities: 15p Sorcery, 5p Astral Access. Choose 10 points of negative talent qualities.

[Tarantula]

Defniately open to abuses. But it definitely would give magicians more variety/options.

[Karaden]

I like how it takes 35 points to make a basic mage.

I like the general concept, add a bit of extra spice to mages then their tradition, which generally doesn't have that much of a noticeable impact.

Perhaps to allow for the creation of a full mage make counterspelling part of sorcery or allow for 20 points which is 40 points good and 20 points bad.

P.S. Your conjuring ability talks about the sorcery skill, guessing a typo.

Edit: The 15 point conjuring ability is also a bit off in that it says that it allows to summon all five types. Did you mean all types of spirits or where you just reiterating all five types of your tradition?

Edit2:

If chosen at 10 points, the character can cast spells from all spell categories, and can only counterspell spells from these categories, as well.

You can only counterspell from all spell categories? How limiting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ElFenrir]

Well, just about anything, if you have people ripping it apart to TRY to abuse it is open to abuse. But for folks who would like to open things up with their mages, it does look very cool. I mean, as long as people are reasonable, about any qualities could work. I actually like this quite a bit.

Edit: It looks like the 35 points...it still costs 15 points, because they get the 30 points of magic qualities. It seems to work like changelings, in that way.

[Karaden]

Edit: It looks like the 35 points...it still costs 15 points, because they get the 30 points of magic qualities. It seems to work like changelings, in that way.

I realized I made a mistake from not having read over it closely enough. What I was talking about was I thought you needed astral sense 10, conjuring 10, counterspell 5, and sorcery 10 to make a basic mage, but sorcery 10 covers the counterspelling.

Edit: I realized it only cost 15 BP, but I was thinking you needed 35... MP? To make it work.

[ElFenrir]

This is nice because it A. Brings back the touches of the old-school shamans. Sure, I could have taken Incompetent: Binding but this *somehow* has a nice touch to it. (I did, indeed, take that for a shaman I made, for the flavor.) Also, Sorcerers/Conjurers can come back and be even a bit better at spellcasting(as befitting someone who specializes), instead of making a mage with 3x incompetences in another magical qualitiy. Now, I can see one powerful thing; Adepts with counterspelling/astral projection. But that IS kind of cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tarantula]

The biggest thing I have an issue with is the:
Mesmeric Adept 20p
The character gains the critter power of Influence.

Just far too broken IMO for anyone who takes it.

[Karaden]

So what happens if your duel natured but don't have the astral talent? Perhaps a note that one is required for the other?

On a similar note, does anything special happen if a duel natured mage astrally projects?

[Aurelius]

Yeah, a basic mage is built by taking 15p Magical Talent, and taken 10p Astral Access, 10p Conjuring and 10p Sorcery. Of course, unlike your normal mage, he is also going to have 15 points of negative Talent Qualities, in addition to the max 35 points of ordinary negative qualities. I personally like that all magicians are also hindered somehow by their talent, but if it suits your fancy, you could remove the negative talents, or allow a 20, 25 and 30 point version of Magical Talent that gives the 10, 20 and 30 points Positive Talent qualities without any negative ones.

But yeah, the Talent Qualities are seperate from normal qualities. You cannot take them as normal qualities, only with the points from the Magical Talent Quality

[Aurelius]

Tarantula: I'm somewhat leery of the critter powers too, especially Concealment and Influence, but it looked nice on paper, so i wanted to get some feedback on it. After all, a magician can mimic it with the influence spell (though that causes drain and is subject to counterspelling). But yeah, still, without the drain it seems problematic

Kareden: Hmm. I wonder about that too. I think i will require a minimum of Astral Perception for dual natured, but not sure. It does seem rather a cheap way of getting astral perception if you can take it instead of any sort of Astral Talent, but then again, being dual-natured is quite a problem in my book (depending on how common wards are in a given campaign, of course)
As for projecting, there are rules for that. A dual natured magician that projects leaves a normal body behind, not a dual-natured one.

[Starmage21]

Tarantula: I'm somewhat leery of the critter powers too, especially Concealment and Influence, but it looked nice on paper, so i wanted to get some feedback on it. After all, a magician can mimic it with the influence spell (though that causes drain and is subject to counterspelling). But yeah, still, without the drain it seems problematic

Kareden: Hmm. I wonder about that too. I think i will require a minimum of Astral Perception for dual natured, but not sure. It does seem rather a cheap way of getting astral perception if you can take it instead of any sort of Astral Talent, but then again, being dual-natured is quite a problem in my book (depending on how common wards are in a given campaign, of course)
As for projecting, there are rules for that. A dual natured magician that projects leaves a normal body behind, not a dual-natured one.

Free spirits can take Influence, Nosferatu start with influence. Any mage currently can summon a spirit with Influence. having it on your character personally is not that broken, so long as it costs an appropriate amount.

[Tarantula]

Summoning spirits causes drain. Free spirits have their own drawbacks, as do nosferatu.

[Karaden]

Summoning spirits doesn't cause that much drain, especially not if you've got decent stats and keep it at lower force.

[Tarantula]

Lower force spirits don't have as good of a chance of being able to successfully influence, or might not even have the power (only one spirit type comes with it, the rest need to take it as an optional power).

And, "not that much" is a whole lot more than 0.

[Aurelius]

The Influence power also seems pretty identical to the spell of the same name. The big difference is drain, and to a lesser degree, counterspelling. Both leave astral signatures, so the question we're left with, is whether it's unbalanced to be able to throw Influences around at will, whether for fun or profit.

[Aurelius]

I have several concerns after looking over the system again, and constructing some partial characters, and i would like your comments for them

-The 15-point version is very tempting, you can always find something more to fit in there. Would it perhaps be better to raise the cost to 20? Or perhaps it's just my inner munchkin that's a bit too strong, and it's fine for more flavor-oriented players.

-The Hidden Way (Concealment) is very attractive to the physical adept, since it helps so much with shadowrunning, and is not a tradeoff for him. This is an effect of the ruling i did where adepts use their full magic score with critter powers, and also the fact that they require no skill investment to use. The no skill investment part is also somewhat a concern for kinds of magicians, but is part of the reason i put the powers at the costs i did.

[Stahlseele]

well, the no skill needed could be done away with if you changed the way that the hidden way works . . have it give bonus dice to stealth checks in hight of either skill(effectively doubling it) or hindering other people in perceiving him . . because skills are capped at 9 anyway, without being adept(*snickers* sorry, could not resist) at something and without aptitude you're limited to 9 dice from this . . granted, maybe a bit strong, so just make it bonus dioce of 0,5 dice per skill level . . so at skill of 6 he'd gain 3 more dice for his checks and so on . .

or as a kinda mean twist don't let him control if it's on or off . . either it's on all the time(you try and get a drink in that crowded bar) or he has no way of knowing if it is active or not right now and has to test it somehow . .

[ElFenrir]

-The 15-point version is very tempting, you can always find something more to fit in there. Would it perhaps be better to raise the cost to 20? Or perhaps it's just my inner munchkin that's a bit too strong, and it's fine for more flavor-oriented players.

IMO, leave it the way it is; if people try to abuse it or game the system, just whack them with the rolled-up paper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[The Jopp]

When it comes to critter powers I have one solution.

Use the Free Spirit Power Table in runner companion and take the costs X10.

These powers should be limited in the following way:

1. Self Only - Unlike a spirit you can only conceal yourself, like a Pixie.
2. One target only - Unless you are a free spirit you can only focus your ability to one target.
3. Powers marked with an asterix (*) are only available to Free Spirits

Now, exactly HOW the character manages the Engulf powers might be better not explained but we can call it psychokinetic force or that he swallowed the target...

Due to the powers cost the character would in many cases be a bit of a one-trick pony but would also add a bit of cool flavor as you could create Cyclops (as an actual cyclops that shoots kinetic beams...)

[Aurelius]

Haha, Jopp, that seems like a beautiful idea. Will consider it and look over the powers.

[Aurelius]

Update: I added the Favored Spell, Metaplanar Adept and Urban Adept positive qualities, and the Common Talent Pattern 'negative' quality.

The Favored Spell quality (which allows you to ignore sustaining penalties for a single specific spell you know) adds a lot of fun options, with spells like critter form and invisibility making it an attractive but in my opinion fair option.

I'm still considering what the best thing to do about the critter powers are. I'll probably be removing the Mesmeric Adept quality and directing anyone who wants it to take Spell Knack (Influence) instead. Concealment seems more fun, but might require some adjustments.

The suggestion to translate the costs(x10) directly from the spirit powers table doesn't really work for me, however. A lot of the costs end up seeming wrong. They are still practical as a guideline, though, and i may add more of them.

[Tarantula]

I'd say if you wanted to keep concealment, grant is as the same as pixies have.

[Starmage21]

The Influence power also seems pretty identical to the spell of the same name. The big difference is drain, and to a lesser degree, counterspelling. Both leave astral signatures, so the question we're left with, is whether it's unbalanced to be able to throw Influences around at will, whether for fun or profit.

Theres also the fact that Influence(power) works off of the magic stat and another stat, whereas the Influence spell uses your mages already high spellcasting skill.

[Aurelius]

Alright, let's try this. I've changed Concealment to Self only, you pay an additional 5 points for it, denying you the ability to take physical adept, or 10p sorcery or conjuring. Seems fairly balanced, if anyone really wants to make a Concealment adept. I've done the same for Mesmeric Adept, but that may still not be enough to balance it, and you'd need a good background (as for the Concealment adept) in order to balance it.

I've also added options for the critter powers of Silence and Animal Control, since they might be appropriate for some concepts. Considering adding Movement (Self only) as a power, since there is canon background for it (british horse adepts, according to the old Grimoire)