Astral Hazing (Runner's Companion) and Geomancy. Options

[Hagga]

Just a quick question we can't thrash out an agreement on - Changelings in the Runner's companion can take a disadvantage with Astral Hazing. I was wondering - if I have the Geomancy metamagic, can I aspect it towards myself with maintenance?

[The Jopp]

Just a quick question we can't thrash out an agreement on - Changelings in the Runner's companion can take a disadvantage with Astral Hazing. I was wondering - if I have the Geomancy metamagic, can I aspect it towards myself with maintenance?

I would say that anything that is a negative quality will actively work against the character regardless. Your attunement should not work unless you are as twisted as your dark emotions that the astral hazing feeds from.

IF you manage to attune against it then i would say that the astral hazing stops working as you are no longer "out of synch" with your astral self.

Note: This is just my opinion

[Fortune]

I don't see why a character couldn't (eventually) do something like this, but I would also require that they 'buy off' the Negative Quality with Karma in-game.

[Karaden]

I don't see why a character couldn't (eventually) do something like this, but I would also require that they 'buy off' the Negative Quality with Karma in-game.

Agreed. You can do stuff to remove your negitive qualities, but you always have to pay for it with karma. Just like the blind quality, you can get rid of it by getting cybereyes, but you still have to pay the karma.

[The Jopp]

The way I interpret his reasoning is that he wants to do the following:

All other peoples magic within Essence Meter: -4 Force

His characters magic rating: +4 Force due to attuning to the Astral Hazing (A magician with F6 would have effective F10)

That just smacks of wrongness as it gives him a bonus with a negative quality regardless if he pays it off with karma. If he pays it off then the quality stops functioning and his attuning becomes a non-issue.

It's like going from Combat Paralysis (-20) to Adrenaline Surge (+15)

[toturi]

That just smacks of wrongness as it gives him a bonus with a negative quality regardless if he pays it off with karma.

I don't see why not, provided it is RAW legal. He still needs to get the karma and initiate to do so. Of course, he could simply go the karma gen route and initiate and get the metamagic at chargen. In fact if all the Ts are crossed and Is are dotted, I would applaud his RAW-fu and welcome him in my game.

[Tarantula]

Sorry, but your rules fu fails you toturi.

Runners Comp, 116, "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence;"

And, SM, 56, "This allows the gradual aspecting (p. 118) of ambient background count towards the geomancer’s particular style of magic."

So, even if you work on aspecting the ambient background count (which hazing does not qualify for) hazing still overrides that aspected count with its own rating 4 one instead.

[toturi]

Sorry, but your rules fu fails you toturi.

Runners Comp, 116, "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence;"

And, SM, 56, "This allows the gradual aspecting (p. 118) of ambient background count towards the geomancer’s particular style of magic."

So, even if you work on aspecting the ambient background count (which hazing does not qualify for) hazing still overrides that aspected count with its own rating 4 one instead.

I had not even looked at the rules for the situation yet. Note:

I don't see why not, provided it is RAW legal. He still needs to get the karma and initiate to do so. Of course, he could simply go the karma gen route and initiate and get the metamagic at chargen. In fact if all the Ts are crossed and Is are dotted, I would applaud his RAW-fu and welcome him in my game.

Underlined for emphasis.

However, if I were to argue for the case, I would probably start with:

Runners Companion p116 "For reasons not yet understood, the character becomes an aspected domain in her own right and taints astral space around her wherever she goes;..."

Street Magic p117 "When magical scholars discuss the available ambient mana in a given area, they refer to it as background count."

Street Magic p118 "By its nature, the background count in a domain is aspected."

Therefore the character's background count is the ambient mana which is then aspected towards her through the use of Geomancy.

[Tarantula]

Runners Companion p116 "For reasons not yet understood, the character becomes an aspected domain in her own right and taints astral space around her wherever she goes;..."


Street Magic p117 "When magical scholars discuss the available ambient mana in a given area, they refer to it as background count."

Street Magic p118 "By its nature, the background count in a domain is aspected."

Therefore the character's background count is the ambient mana which is then aspected towards her through the use of Geomancy.

You ignore the text in RC, 116, "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence"

The hazing overrides the background count, but is not the ambient mana. Geomancy offers no method to aspect a domain that isn't the ambient mana.
If the ambient mana is a rating 3 background count.
Astral hazing guy walks in, making the area hes in a rating 4 count instead.
The ambient count is still 3, but is overridden by his hazing background count of 4.

[Jaid]

personally, i would rule that at most, you could aspect the astral hazing provided the guy at the center of it doesn't go anywhere. as soon as he moves someplace else (and at some point, he's going to want to move somewhere else so that he doesn't have some corp sending strike teams after him to clear his astral hazing out of their territory) the aspecting achieved by geomancy is ended because the new location of the source of the hazing would have to be reflected in what the geomancer does to aspect the mana to himself. (for example, in the survival of the fittest module iirc, the runners get hired to rearrange some furniture to mess up the geomancy in a certain room)

[darthmord]

You ignore the text in RC, 116, "Whatever the ambient mana conditions are, the character always stands at the heart of a Rating 4 background count (see p. 117, Street Magic) that extends a number of meters from her body equal to her Essence"

The hazing overrides the background count, but is not the ambient mana. Geomancy offers no method to aspect a domain that isn't the ambient mana.
If the ambient mana is a rating 3 background count.
Astral hazing guy walks in, making the area hes in a rating 4 count instead.
The ambient count is still 3, but is overridden by his hazing background count of 4.

I am going to have to agree with toturi on this. The Hazing is a domain. Geomancy aligns domains.

It basically boils down to Hazing having a certain effect on the local mana... Geomancy aligns that effect to the uses of the Geomancer.

Basically, instead of seeing the mana through a red filter which hurts everyone, you now see it through a green filter which benefits you but still hurts everyone else because they don't use green filtered mana.

Now the intent was likely to make the negative quality a penalty. But the wording is such that it can be worked into a positive if the player is clever and inventive. Much like that maligned Sword +1 (cursed) from AD&D. Useful item that. Typically stays in your hand if you try to use another weapon. Dragon Magazine had a wonderful writeup on how you could find beneficial uses for the most cursed and annoying things. Like that sword. It'd teleport to your hand if needed to enforce the curse... think about it. A magical sword that can't be taken from you (no disarms) and will always ensure you are armed for combat.

So precedent is out there for bad things being quite beneficial.

[Tarantula]

How about this part of geomancy then? SM, 56, "To ensure that the imprinted mana does not dissipate
between rituals, and to maintain an aspect once changed, it
is necessary to ensure the site itself observes the geomantic
lore of the initiate’s tradition. If the site does not already correspond
to such criteria (an ancient stone circle would correspond
to the Druidic tradition’s criteria, but not a wujen’s feng
shui), the site may need to be “re-sculpted.� This may require
altering the immediate landscape, constructing a building
from scratch, rearranging the furniture, performing regular
religious observances, or offering sacrifices to local spirits.
The nature and extent of each tradition’s criteria are left to the
gamemaster to define as appropriate to the situation. At the
gamemaster’s discretion, failing to comply with geomantic
lore may apply a negative dice pool modifier to future geomantic
rituals."

I'm pretty sure there isn't anything you could do to the person to change him such that the "site" would correspond to his tradition. Since it applies a penalty to future rituals, and you have to keep doing rituals to keep it maintained, it might work, till you failed tests.



Also, it consistently references a static location for geomancy. Something someone with astral hazing is not.

[toturi]

Also, it consistently references a static location for geomancy. Something someone with astral hazing is not.

The person is the location. It might be similar to a Background Count on some other moving object that has its own Background Count, like, you know, the Earth which is constantly moving on its rotational axis and orbits around the sun. The Earth is not in a static location afterall.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that it cannot be done or it can be done. I am saying let's approach this with an open mind and explore the RAW and see if there is a way to do it.

[Karaden]

The person is the location. It might be similar to a Background Count on some other moving object that has its own Background Count, like, you know, the Earth which is constantly moving on its rotational axis and orbits around the sun. The Earth is not in a static location afterall.

Let me be clear, I am not saying that it cannot be done or it can be done. I am saying let's approach this with an open mind and explore the RAW and see if there is a way to do it.

Damn, wish I could remember the quote or where it is from... something like 'Where living on a ball of mud hurtling through space at 300,000 miles an hour around a nuclear reaction is considered normal' I know that is compleatly off and the 300k miles is off for sure, but it was along those lines.....

Anyway... While the earth does in fact move quite a bit, it does also generate stability around it. Things that 'don't move' are generally considered as such by the basis of their relative position to something else. Generally something very large which they would have no power to alter as a whole (like say a planet) and is reasonably close (like say, the earth)...

Ok, lost my train of thought, but in most conversations relating to activities on the planet, the earth is considered to be immobile. Or perhaps it should be said that when confronted with an object as large as the earth... damn, can't think tonight... anyway, point is everything on earth is moving relative to earth, so 'not moving' is considered 'moving only as the earth moves'... yeah, that sounds good.

[Hagga]

The way I interpret his reasoning is that he wants to do the following:

All other peoples magic within Essence Meter: -4 Force

His characters magic rating: +4 Force due to attuning to the Astral Hazing (A magician with F6 would have effective F10)

That just smacks of wrongness as it gives him a bonus with a negative quality regardless if he pays it off with karma. If he pays it off then the quality stops functioning and his attuning becomes a non-issue.

It's like going from Combat Paralysis (-20) to Adrenaline Surge (+15)

Less twinking, actually.

Full disclosure: I was going to make the character some god awful bastard storm spirit looking thing. Striking skin pigmentation, critter spook, astral hazing, extravagant eyes, unusual hair, etc. (Yes, I know spirits can't have children. You know what I mean.) Was hoping to create it in such a way that it would be possible for him to compete with normal magicians eventually, with a bit of effort.

[Hagga]

Ta for the help, but - one more question. I'm loathe to make a new thread - I was originally going to make a magician, BUT I see in SOTA2064 there is a limited astral projection power - could it be possible to take that in 4e and trot off on a metaplanar quest once initiated? For mystic adepts, obviously, but I'm curious if a physad could do the same.

[darthmord]

Metaplanar quests follow their own rules for time spent OoB. Basically, once you embark on the metaplanar quest, the time counter for Astral Projection stops counting.

You could think of it as...

Astral Projection = Loitering with a time limit before you are forced to leave / die
Metaplanar Quest = legitimate business while projecting.

[Tarantula]

Metaplanar quests follow their own rules for time spent OoB. Basically, once you embark on the metaplanar quest, the time counter for Astral Projection stops counting.

You could think of it as...

Astral Projection = Loitering with a time limit before you are forced to leave / die
Metaplanar Quest = legitimate business while projecting.

No, they don't. At least, not by the rules they don't.

[Stahlseele]

wasn't limited projection essence minutes instead of essence hours?

[Fortune]

Yes it was.

[Stahlseele]

hmm . . so if astral hazing is at level 4, and a mage with astral hazing actually manages to do something like successfully cast force 6 mana static . . would everybody get -6 to magicing and he himself only -4 due to the -4 of his hazing overruling everything else?
and if i make mana-static permanent, can i geomancer the background count so it is aspected to myself?

[hyzmarca]

I'm pretty sure there isn't anything you could do to the person to change him such that the "site" would correspond to his tradition.

Ahem

http://www.jefallbright.net/images/20050804a.gif

http://blog.case.edu/finalargument/2007/09...a_air_go_on_you

http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_219425.html

This is the Sixth World, after all

(Yes, I know spirits can't have children. You know what I mean.)

Actually, that's not true. There is a reason why magicians dikote their AVS ally spirits. It is a little-known fact that spirits with the Inhabitation Power can have children and these kids will have attributes reflecting the spirit portion of their heritage (See Missing Blood for an example). Whether other forms of spirits can have children is unlikely, but it is not impossible that a male spirit might be able to impregnate a female (the limits of the Materialization and Possession Powers make pregnant spirits far less likely.

[Tarantula]

If he cast it on top of himself... I'd say that yes, the hazing would override it, and everyone in the area of the hazing would only have a rating 4 background count not 6. (Doesn't only work for him, but for everyone.)

Manastatic loses points at 1 per hour. A geomancy ritual would take 12 - leaders magic hours. And considering you have to beat the count in hits to have it successfully aspect, and then would lose it anyway once that mana static faded. So at best, you could cast it, spend 6 hours geomancing it, hope that you get all the needed hits, and have 6 hours of a dwindling aspected background count for you. (Assuming you overcast it at 12) It'd be 6 when you could use it, and drop at a rate of 1 point per hour.