Magical Augmentation Options

[Muspellsheimr]

I know this has been brought up before, but I am unable to find the thread.

I have been thinking about how to create permanent spell effects on an individual. This is possible, through RAW, using Quickening, but this comes with it's own problems - notably, the ability to be dispelled (although difficult), & wards.

I have been looking at another way to create permanent spell effects, and settled on a process similar to augmentation - the spell is bound to a character's aura, effectively becoming part of them, at the cost of Essence. I know there will be numerous people saying this should not be possible, with various reasons why, but I honestly cannot think of any good, hard reason it could not work, if done correctly.

The problem, then, is balancing it appropriately. How much should such magical augmentations cost, in both Essence & Nuyen? And what type of spells should be allowed?

As to the second question, although I can argue for some Detection, Illusion, & Manipulation spells, only Health effects truly make sense. As such, I suggest that only Sustained Health spells may become augmentations in this manner.

The thing that has me held up is how to determine the Essence costs of these augmentations. I know it should be based off the Drain of the spells, as that is a gauge of how powerful the spells are, but am unsure of what formula to use for balanced costs. Should Force play a part, or Net Hits (I know one of them should have an effect, but which - both maybe?).

As for the Nuyen cost, this should be easily determined, once the Essence cost is finalized - they should be proportionate to each other.


So, my question to Dumpshock is, what do you suggest the formula for the Essence cost of such enchantments should be? I am looking for something roughly comparable to Bioware - they may cost more in some cases, but should never cost less Essence than obtaining the same effect from Basic grade Bioware.

And please, for those of you who think this should not be done, keep to yourselves. I know you are there, & frankly do not really care. I am looking for opinions on how to balance this, not on if it should be allowed.

[KCKitsune]

OK I read this thread and gave it some thought. I would say that any Magical Augmentation should be of less Essence than Basic Bioware, but the cost should be in the "OMGWTF!!!!" range. The reason I say this is because it is Magic, and it should be quite easy on Essence. Here's what I'm thinking:

Essence Cost: same as Delta grade Bioware
Nuyen Cost: triple that of Delta grade Bioware (30 times the cost of Basic Grade ware should be in the Ouchy range

[Muspellsheimr]

A few problems with that:

First, although I expect it to be expensive, this should be something reasonably obtainable. If it costs so much more than Bioware, why would someone (aka player) take it over the bio alternative?

Second, while most spells have an augmentation/bioware equivalent, not all do. How would you fit in Increase Logic beyond Rating 3, or Increase Willpower? Further basing it purely off bioware runs into numerous potential problems with designing new spells.

[Jaid]

why not just introduce blood charms? =P

[Muspellsheimr]

Perhaps because I am not familiar with them. Care to explain?

[Ravor]

Basically magical cyberware from the Fourth Age.

[AllTheNothing]

Well let me see, weren't there things called spell-locks in older Shadowrun?

I would say that magical augmentations should be essence-free and cost karma along (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .

Characters that would want magical augmentations are the ones that value the integrity of their aura (awekened and emerged), this characters burn karma like ther's no tomorrow, having to slow their development in order to gain the augmentation boost would make an interesting chois to make (and would keep the thing balanced).

This is a link to a post of mine in the "magic tattoos" thread:
My idea hope can help

Just my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[The Jopp]

Here's my idea.

Magical Augmentations doesn't cost essence but magic rating instead.

The character can buy Resources equal to half his magic rating for MA. These resources are ONLY allowed for MA.
The character cannot have more than half his Essence or half his Magic in MA (Whichever is lower).
The character loose magic rating instead of essence equal to the essence cost in SR4 Books regarding augmentations.

Any loss of Magic Rating and/or Essence will impact both magic rating for casting spells and will temporarely turn of a number of implants equal to essence/magic lost (ie total the MA cost in essence and turn them off).

This can be countered by Initiating and increasing magic rating to get them "online" again.

The Magic Rating used for MA will count against magic use for the character. If they have used two points of magic for implants and they have six in magic rating their effective magic rating is 4.

The optimal use for this is permanent effects that cannot be found through normal sensors like Cyberware Sensors or medical examinations.

Someone making an assension test can use the rules for Cyberware Scanners to detect the magical augmentations of the character.

[AllTheNothing]

Here's my idea.

Magical Augmentations doesn't cost essence but magic rating instead.

The character can buy Resources equal to half his magic rating for MA. These resources are ONLY allowed for MA.
The character cannot have more than half his Essence or half his Magic in MA (Whichever is lower).
The character loose magic rating instead of essence equal to the essence cost in SR4 Books regarding augmentations.

Any loss of Magic Rating and/or Essence will impact both magic rating for casting spells and will temporarely turn of a number of implants equal to essence/magic lost (ie total the MA cost in essence and turn them off).

This can be countered by Initiating and increasing magic rating to get them "online" again.

The Magic Rating used for MA will count against magic use for the character. If they have used two points of magic for implants and they have six in magic rating their effective magic rating is 4.

The optimal use for this is permanent effects that cannot be found through normal sensors like Cyberware Sensors or medical examinations.

Someone making an assension test can use the rules for Cyberware Scanners to detect the magical augmentations of the character.

Essence loss brings Magic loss, and it is Magic loss that stinkes. Also consider that only awekened characters have a magic attribute, everyone else gets the shaft, and the awekeneds try to keep the essence loss to the minimum because it reduces their primary attribute.
I would go for no essence/magic loss, tied to the essence (so technomancers can benefit from them), that costs karma, alot of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and some serious search-fu.

[The Jopp]

The problem I see here is also game balance and what i can do at char gen.

This should be available at chargen and be expensive and/or restricted because what people want here is basically the cyber/bioware without the drawbacks.

How about this then.

1 Piece of gear per magic rating and count as Delta Grade for Cost.
Each begun point of essence cost count as one used magic point.

So, a rating 2 synaptic booster takes up 2 magic points and cost 1600000Y.

Perks:
Cannot be removed
Invisible to Cyberware Scanners and means that can detect bioware
Cost no Essence or Magic Rating

Cons:
Expensive
Can be detected through assension

[darthmord]

The mystic adept approach doesn't sound bad. Except instead of tying magic into Adept powers, it's tying Magic into permanent spell effects.

All you'd have to work out then is a cost chart that covers how much Magic it costs based on spell type, force, and number of hits.

It's really in effect (IMO) altering how you use your Magic such that it powers a permanent effect rather than being available for use in casting / summoning.

Thus I (with Magic 6) could allocate 1 point of Magic toward permanent effects and keep the other 5 for casting. Or go 2/4 or 3/3, etc etc.

[Ancient History]

Let's be honest, what y'all really want are ED blood charms.

[Aurelius]

Well, i could see Aztech introducing them on the market. They seem to be pretty knowledgeable about that sort of stuff. I'd personally tend towards having them cost physical wound boxes instead of essence, but i'm not sure thats the best way to do it.

[AllTheNothing]

Let's be honest, what y'all really want are ED blood charms.

I would prefer something that costs karma and money instead of essence and money, and that doesn't maim you.

[Ancient History]

Ah, c'mon. Just a little maiming? You have two of lots of things, you know.

[Ravor]

I have to agree, anything that changes a being's pattern damn well should cost Essence.

[Muspellsheimr]

Although certainly doable, I just have this nagging feeling that the Mystic Adept-like split is a bad idea.

Using Karma for such effects is already covered by Quickening. Such spells are basically permanent effects. What I am looking for is a way to make a spell part of the person/aura, which implies an Essence cost. As they would, in effect, be remarkably similar to Bio/Cyber/Gene/Nanotech, why not go with Essence as the balancing effect?

As for Earthdawn Blood Charms, can anyone give me a (semi)detailed explanation of what they are & how they work, or the name of book references for me to try & obtain?

[Aurelius]

AH's Blood Magic file gives a fair overview of blood charms. I will only add, since i couldn't find it, that their balancing mechanic in earthdawn is reducing your maximum hit points, meaning you have to take less damage before you go unconscious or die. Also, some of them are more actively dangerous to use, since they can catastrophically destabilize your aura (that means you die)

[darthmord]

Although certainly doable, I just have this nagging feeling that the Mystic Adept-like split is a bad idea.

Using Karma for such effects is already covered by Quickening. Such spells are basically permanent effects. What I am looking for is a way to make a spell part of the person/aura, which implies an Essence cost. As they would, in effect, be remarkably similar to Bio/Cyber/Gene/Nanotech, why not go with Essence as the balancing effect?

As for Earthdawn Blood Charms, can anyone give me a (semi)detailed explanation of what they are & how they work, or the name of book references for me to try & obtain?

The only reason I went with the Mystic Adept split (other than it being somewhat mentioned in an earlier post before mine) is that you are tying your Magic into an effect. Your Magic comes from your Pattern matching up sufficiently with Astral Space to channel mana. Well, in order to power a permanent Magical effect that is a part of your Aura, you would have to divert some of your magical ability into maintaining that. Which would result in a corresponding decrease in the rest of your Magic related capabilities.

But if you have a nagging feeling it's a bad idea, please explain. We both might come to better understandings.

I can detail the ED Blood charms once I get home and read up on them again in my ED manual.

[hobgoblin]

Well let me see, weren't there things called spell-locks in older Shadowrun?

old school sustaining foci, those. with maybe a touch of anchoring mixed in, iirc...

[Muspellsheimr]

But if you have a nagging feeling it's a bad idea, please explain. We both might come to better understandings.

I have thought about it a bit, and one major reason is that this limits the use purely to Awakened characters. This is something I would like to avoid - I am thinking of something along the lines of casting a spell on a subject, & then binding the spell to their aura, effectively making it permanent at the expense of something else (my intention being Essence). There are other reasons why I think it is a bad idea, but I for some reason am unable to identify them.

I reviewed Ancients document on Blood Charms, and do not think they are what I am looking for.


After some thought, I am considering something like the following - comments welcome:



[Insert Metamagic Name]
Prerequisites: Quickening, Anchoring

This metamagic allows the caster to forge [Insert Name] spells - magical effects permanently bonded to their recipients soul. [Insert Name] all have a variable rating, which is used in place of Force & Hits for all effects of the spell they duplicate. The Essence cost of [Insert Name] is equal to ( (Rating x 2) + Drain Modifier) x 0.1. The Nuyen cost of [Insert Name] is equal to ( (Rating x 2) + Drain Modifier) x 20,000, with an Availability of Rating x 5R.

To create a [Insert Name], the enchanter must make an Extended Enchanting Test, with a threshold of Rating x 2 & interval of 2 hours. The enchanting process is a ritual taking hours; the enchanter must possess a Magic attribute equal or greater than the desired Rating, & know the spell to be bonded. A similar process can be used to remove such enchantments, but lost Essence is not returned. Lost Essence leaves an "Essence Hole", similar to Bioware & Cybernetics that can be used for further enchantments.

Only Health spells with a Sustained duration may be made into [Insert Name] enchantments.

[AllTheNothing]

Ah, c'mon. Just a little maiming? You have two of lots of things, you know.

Ok!
You try first! I'm busy right now!

On a more esrious note if you give a look to the link that I've posted above I would like to know what you think about it.
Even if a bit a sadist you're still an authority here.

[AllTheNothing]

I have to agree, anything that changes a being's pattern damn well should cost Essence.

I am who I am, and who I am is not necessarely who I was or who I will be.
We're all bound to our experiences, they are what made us what we are, shaped our perception of the world, given us our knowledge and skill. Experience is instument of change and growth, what allowed us to be what we are and what will allow us to become what we will be. Do not think our spirit as a static thing, it flowes and growes with us for we it and it is us, the day it will become a static thing it will be the day of our death.
People change over time as they grow older and gain experience, so their spirit do; in game terms this potential of growth is expressed in the form of karma. Karma in the awakened world has very tangible effects, it can affect our body (improving phisical attributes), enlighten the mind (mental attributes), improve our abilities, but it can also be used to bring into being things that would be only hypotesis otherwise (quickening spells, creating and binding foci, creating ally spirits, etc.).
In game terms a magical augmentation (as I see it) consist in casting and sustaining a spell on the subject, than using enchanting techniques to match the spell pattern to the subject signature, if the spirit acceptes the augmentation it can use karma (potential for change and growth) to absorb it and make it part of itself (a particulary bastard GM could let the player go trought the whole process just to tell him/her that his/her character's spirit rejectes the augmentation living the character with the expences without the benefit).
For balance concernes I would say that karma is a good bet if high enough.

[Muspellsheimr]

No, Karma represents learning, not changing. When you increase your Body, it is not because you are spending Karma, it is because you are working out for a period of time. Karma is in place as a game mechanic to say how much & when you can make such increases. It has nothing to do with those increases in-game.

Essence is a representation of your spiritual health. Augmentation, drugs, and similar can all disrupt (lower) your Essence. When something is being bound to your aura (spirit), Essence is what it would cost.

[Ancient History]

Ok!
You try first! I'm busy right now!

Maybe I will!