(Critter) Form, Uses and Abuses Options

[Neraph]

The critter form spell states that it functions like the Shapechange spell "...,but only aloows the subject to change into a specific non-paranormal animal." (SR4, pg. 204, emphasis added).

Obviously, a Bear Form spell exists, and a Wolf Form, Eagle Form, oreven an Aardvark Form spell exists, but I ask you, can a Troll Form, Dwarf Form, or Human Form spell exist? I say they can, and I will show you why.

As already stated, all the spell looks for is a specific, non-paranormal animal. So, any creature of the Animal Kingdom works. We know a bear works, but why does it work? Here's why (http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/SingleRpt?search_topic=TSN&search_value=621850). As we can see, bears have a specific taxonomic hierarchy, also known as a Linnaean Classification. So any taxonomic or Linnaean classification that results in a creature within the Animal Kingdom is a viable option for the purposes of this spell.

I present to you the Homo sapiens' taxonomical classification: http://www.itis.gov/servlet/SingleRpt/Sing...ch_value=180092. Here is an easier representation: http://anthro.palomar.edu/animal/table_humans.htm. Therefore, a Human Spell is a viable option. But are trolls, orks, or elves?

Yes, and here's why. Starting in SR4, pg. 65, they give a brief rundown on Metahumanity, and they describe all the different metavariants. The clincher is that they give an additional Linnaeas Classification surname onto Dwarves, Elves, Orks, Trolls, and Humans. That places them firmly into the realm of organisms in the animal kingdom, and fully within the realm of the (Critter) Form spell.

[Ancient History]

Uh, you know that paracritters have scientific names too, right?

[Neraph]

Yes, but it specifically states that you neewd a normal, non-paranormal animal. Paracritters are out of the loop.

[Ancient History]

I'm not quite seeing your logic here. Non-paranormal critters have scientific names, so they're fair game, but paranormal critters who also have scientific names are not? Just...uh...why? I mean, you really can't distinguish between a regular and paranormal critter based solely on scientific name in most cases.

[Neraph]

The reason is in the text of the spell itself, which I quoted at the beginning of the thread. The spell itself will not allow paranormal animals to be used, but all other animals are allowed. Using Taxonomy and Linnaean Hierarchy, we can establish Homo sapiens sapiens, Homo sapiens robustus, and others as animals, firmly in the hierarchy of taxonomy. The only possible problem (and this is one I just thought of) is determining if Trolls, Orks, Elves, and Dwarves are paranormal animals...

[Ancient History]

Which brings us back to my point, i.e. your logic is a bit flawed. If all critters, paranormal and normal, have these classifications - and they do - then that's not exactly a proper guideline given that the spell description itself is more restrictive, yaar?

[Neraph]

At the very least, my explanation above establishes humans as a viable target for the Critter Form spell, since they are an animal (as shown in Taxonomy), and are indesputibly non-paranormal (as they existed in the 5th world). So Potentially, Troll Form, Elf Form, and such spells cannot exist, but a Human Form can. And that means spellcasting test hits are added to the physical attributes of the new human body you just made.

[Backgammon]

It really doesn't dude. The rule of the spell is simple: normal critter.

You want to get anal on the wording and try to justify casting in on humans you can do so in your game, but you're still wrong.

[Ragewind]

It really doesn't dude. The rule of the spell is simple: normal critter.

You want to get anal on the wording and try to justify casting in on humans you can do so in your game, but you're still wrong.

Actually no, Humans are animals. This is true in the core rule book and in real life, we even have a scientific classification agian in the core rule book and in real life. This makes it a valid target for the spell, even the critter section of the books cannot account for all animals that exist on the planet. Your the one being anal about it, its simple science. Don't be thrown off by the term critter, in Shadowrun Critter and Animal are one and the same and interchangeable.

[Neraph]

The spell name is (Critter) Form, but the text says any "non-paranormal animal". Animal is the operative term.

[Ravor]

Of course, you run into a major hitch in your "humans are just critters" theory, metahumans belong to a class of their own, they are the Namegivers and thus are more then "mere animals".

[Neraph]

HUMANS ARE NOT CRITTERS! THE CRITTER FORM SPELL ONLY LOOKS FOR ANIMALS!

Do you see it now?

Contrary to the NAME of the spell, the EFFECT only looks for an animal, not a critter. Shapechange looks for critters, but Critter Form only looks for animals.

[Ravor]

So? Metahumans are Namegivers and are thus not included in the spell via Magical Theory.

[Neraph]

Can you quote a page number/book reference, or is that just a houserule? I don't remember seeing anything about Namegivers or Magical Theory aside from listing it as a knowledge Skill, with no further clarifications.

[Ravor]

If you want a specific reference ask Ancient History real nicely, I'm not in the habit of giving candy to twinks.

[Neraph]

Allright, so we've determined that there are no rules prohibiting this. Thank you.

[Ancient History]

There's no rule prohibiting you from creating an Elf Form spell, no. Its up to the adjudication of the individual gamemaster about whether or not that sort of thing will fly in their game. I could tell you that the creators probably would have mentioned if they intended you to use metahumans in the definition of the spell, but anything not in print isn't canon.

Also, Namegivers is an Earthdawn term, not a Shadowrun one.

[/edit]We've actually had this conversation before, and I'm not generally in favor with the (Critter) Form and Detect (Widget) spells precisely because they're so open-ended that they can be prone to confusion and abuse.

[Machiavelli]

Besides that, I have some additional side-of-view to this topic. The spell allows to change into an "non-paranormal" critter. Even if you WOULD imply a human to be an standard animal, this wouldn´t include trolls, elves etc. because the HAVE paranormal powers and are therefore not "standard". So you could change definitely into an norm (would have its uses) but not into a metaform/-variant.

[Fortune]

As a point of interest, Dragons can use the Shapechange Spell to take (meta)human form. This could be seen as some kind of precedent.

[Neraph]

As a point of interest, Dragons can use the Shapechange Spell to take (meta)human form. This could be seen as some kind of precedent.

From what I understand, the Metahuman Form that you're talking about is an additional power that Great Dragons get, and as such is not an application of a spell, but the use of a power (which works differently). Thank you for your effort though.

[Fortune]

You are correct in that canon does indeed list Metahuman Form as a Power of Great Dragons. The rest of Dragonkind however, has to make do with the Shapechange spell to accomplish the same purpose.

Lesser dragons are capable of using magic to assume metahuman forms, but it is not an innate ability. (This means that the magic must be sustained, maintained by a sustaining focus, or something similar.)

[Neraph]

Oh, what do you know. Neat. Thanks a ton Fortune.

[Tarantula]

You say that shapechange says critter, but critter form does not, and thusly shapechange does not allow for metahuman changes, but critter form does.

By that same logic, only shapechange states that the subject retains human consciousness, and therefore critter form causes you to lose your human consciousness.

[Ragewind]

You say that shapechange says critter, but critter form does not, and thusly shapechange does not allow for metahuman changes, but critter form does.

By that same logic, only shapechange states that the subject retains human consciousness, and therefore critter form causes you to lose your human consciousness.

/sigh

Tarantula...dude...c'mn

Here let me quote it as it states exactly from the rulebook page 204 :

Critter form works exactly like Shapechange, except that it only allows a specific non-paranormal animal form.

So what did we learn>?

[Tarantula]

Ok. Well, then the spell also explicitly states that you must consult the critters section p. 285 for physical attributes. Since no metahumans are listed there, you cannot change into them.