A valid point in the Lacing and Density stacking debate Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[streetangelj]

While preparing my next campaign, my roomate and I finally came to a logical solution to the question of whether or not they could stack. We have reached the logical conclusion that they cannot. The reason being that bones are naturally porous, thus giving the lacing material something to bond to physically. If the bones have become more dense (w/o becoming bulkier) then they are no longer as porous and the lacing cannot bond to the bones. This finally gives a reasonable answer as to why you can't stack the damage bonuses, but prevents you from stacking the defense as well. I can live with that. Can you?

[Stahlseele]

i can, my characters probably could not

[Tarantula]

You can't stack the damage bonuses, because they aren't bonuses, they are replacements to the damage code.
As far as stacking the defense, yes, you can.

[Dr Funfrock]

Tarantula, care to expand on that point about defence stacking? I'm not saying you're wrong, just asking to see the working, so to speak.

[Tarantula]

It doesn't say that they don't stack, so they do?

[Ed_209a]

I have always visualized bone lacing as an external scaffolding of <whatever> around major bones, while bone density is a progressive viral/nanotech change into a stronger or less brittle ceramic. As such, I don't see why they wouldn't stack.

I do like Tarantula's take on the damage bonuses.

[Muspellsheimr]

Huge flaw in your logic - 1 cubic foot of Gold is far more dense than 1 cubic foot of Tin, and thus heavier. Yet it is the same amount of material.

If you make something less porous, yet the same area, you are not increasing the density, you are increasing the total volume. Having a greater density means there is less room between the molecules, not that there is less air pockets.


That being said, Tarantula is correct. By RAW, the damage values of the augmentations are replacements, not additives, to your unarmed damage. Thus, only the higher value will be used. The defense bonuses, however, are additive. One grants additional dice on Damage Resistance Tests, the other grants armor bonuses. As the text of the two do not forbid them from being used together, they can. You get the resistance increase, the armor increase, & the higher of the two damage replacements (as I said, they are not increasments).

[Tarantula]

Huge flaw in your logic - 1 cubic foot of Gold is far more dense than 1 cubic foot of Tin, and thus heavier. Yet it is the same amount of material.

If you make something less porous, yet the same area, you are not increasing the density, you are increasing the total volume. Having a greater density means there is less room between the molecules, not that there is less air pockets.

Dictionary.com of porous

1. full of pores.
2. permeable by water, air, etc.

Dictionary.com for pore
1. A tiny opening, as one in an animal's skin or on the surface of a plant leaf or stem, through which liquids or gases may pass.
2. A space in soil, rock, or loose sediment that is not occupied by mineral matter and allows the passage or absorption of fluids, such as water, petroleum, or air.

Making something less pourous means that you adding more material, as you are removing the tiny openings and filling them in. This does increase the density of the volume of area as there is more of a more dense material (bone) and less of a less dense material (air). You don't change the density of the bone, you simply fill the pores of the bones in with more bone instead of air. This causes the overall weight of the area to be increased, while not increasing the volume of space occupied.

[Muspellsheimr]

True, but as I said, you are not increasing the density of the bone, you are filling up the pores with additional bone. Increasing the density of a material is compressing it on a molecular level, not filling in holes.

[Tarantula]

Yes and no. You are not increasing the density of the material that make up the solid portions of the bone. That is correct.

You are increasing the density of the object commonly called a "bone" by causing it to be less porous and have more of the "bone" material in a given volume.

This is analogous to having a cardboard box. Then, to increase the density of the area the cardboard box occupies you fill it up with unassembled cardboard boxes. The resulting box looks very similar to the original one, but the area it takes up has gained quite a lot of density.

Since you are being so technical... Dictionary.com for Density...
4. Physics. mass per unit volume.

The volume is the area taken up by the physical object of the bone. This includes the pores. You can indeed increase the density of this volume by replacing one material (air in the pores) with a more massive material (bone).

[Platinum Dragon]

I'm pretty sure negating the porousness of your bone structure would cause some serious health issues. I mean, I'm no doctor, but I'm given to believe bones are porous for a reason.

[kzt]

Bone is a living material that is continually removed and replaced and resculpted by the body in reaction to stress. That is why broken bones heal. If you prevent the blood flow through the bone it isn't going to heal or resculpt in reaction to stress. I suspect this would work out poorly.

[Sceptic]

I'm pretty sure negating the porousness of your bone structure would cause some serious health issues. I mean, I'm no doctor, but I'm given to believe bones are porous for a reason.

I believe bone marrow is involved in the immune system and in the generation of red blood cells. If you're making bone significantly less porous then you should probably assign penalties on disease resistance and healing tests.

[streetangelj]

Well, logically Bone Density Augmentatation (as decribed in the BBB) doesn't increase the size of the character, therefore density increase makes them less porous, like Tarantula pointed out. Lacing would have to be bonded to the bones (which it can do because they are normally porous) or it would not stay attached and the chacter would suffer even more serious health problems than just those suggested by Platinum Dragon (besides, if I remember correctly most of the health-related functions bones perform happen deeper inside them than these procedures probably go.) as the lacing fell off the bone and began floating around the character's system. As far as kzt's point goes, any laced bone that gets broken is gonna require a trip back to the cyber clinic because the lacing cannot regenerate itself and will prevent the bone from healing normally anyway.

We came up with this because I was trying to find a rational reason why the damage bonuses can't stack, but the protection can besides "the FAQ says so" (for obvious reasons of game balance- Troll Adepts with max STR, Critical Strike, Martial Arts, and both peices of 'ware would be doing at least twice the damage of a Panther Cannon with each hit.) and I absolutely abhor using that answer. That's why I spend so much time on DSF, so I can give better answers and share mine with other people who think along the same lines as me.

[Mäx]

We came up with this because I was trying to find a rational reason why the damage bonuses can't stack, but the protection can besides "the FAQ says so"

As has been said the protection tacks because it is a bonus and the damage doesn't tack because it's a replacement instead of a bonus.

[Neraph]

That being said, Tarantula is correct. By RAW, the damage values of the augmentations are replacements, not additives, to your unarmed damage. Thus, only the higher value will be used. The defense bonuses, however, are additive. One grants additional dice on Damage Resistance Tests, the other grants armor bonuses. As the text of the two do not forbid them from being used together, they can. You get the resistance increase, the armor increase, & the higher of the two damage replacements (as I said, they are not increasments).

True.

That aside, the rest of you are arguing semantics. Maybe Bone Density makes your bones more stupider, and that increases your weight and unarmed damage (alternate definition of dense).

The point is, the damage codes don't stack, but you'd get the body to resist damage and the armor value from the lacing. Personally, I'd not pay like 1+ essense for like 1/2 armor. Dermal Sheathing's cheaper for better.