Legwork Discussion, Is it legging or is it sitting? Options

[Malachi]

I was in a discussion a few weeks ago here on DS where someone expressed some frustration with the Legwork in SR4. Their complaint was that Legwork has now become dominated by the Hacker while everyone waits around for their Data Search tests to be done. I'm not starting this thread to argue about that or SR4 rules. I would like to start a discussion about how Legwork is run in your games.

Does Legwork involve everyone, or is it all done by one role (Face, Hacker)? If it involves everyone, how? Does Legwork drag and slow down the action in your games? If not, how are you keeping it upbeat?

Lets start sharing how Legwork is done in our games and maybe gets some synergy ideas going. No gripe sessions please.

[Malachi]

I suppose I'll "throw the first coin in" on my own topic here.

In my group I don't have a problem with Legwork being dominated by one role. First off, the group's Hacker goes off and searches for some of the basic information on the target. For example if its a building the Hacker will get a floorplan, owner, number of employess, and any public info that can be found relating to security. However, I don't let the Hacker do everything because most of the information that runners would really want cannot be found on a Matrix search alone. (I also universally cap all Extended Tests to a number of rolls equal to the skill rating) The Mage then does an Astral recon on the target (be it person, place, or whatever) and tries to assess any magical threats. Other members of the group usually lend a hand by calling contacts, or doing some "cold" calls to try and gather information. They will do follow-up on things like names of people or specific pieces of equipment that turn up in the initial search(es).

I try to keep the Legwork section moving by "flipping" my attention (as GM) between the various characters to ensure that each one gets a "slice" of my time. If the majority of people are waiting on someone else before proceeding I'll focus more attention on the "roadblock" person in order to get everyone involved again.

How does legwork move in your groups?

[damaleon]

Some basic legwork activities I've done:
Hacking for building plans/personnel info
Call or face to face meetings RPed with contacts
Stakeouts, via drone, meat, and astral projection
Data searches, matrix and meat (there are still a few libraries, some dedicated to things best left off the Matrix)

A few of the more interesting, mostly to done to give players that have been in the back seat a chance to do something:
Friendly combat (Matrix or meat) with a contact for info, instead of paying nuyen
"Vacationed" at an exclusive hotel to get info on layout and security
Casting (sometimes ritual casting) various detection/illusion/manipulation spells to spy or gain information

It's always kind of depended on the type of legwork. If we were after some gangers, our sammie with intimidation could usually scare it out his mates faster than the Face could get it out of them. Building info was usually coming from the hacker, unless it was about some old building in the Barrens, then it normally from a contact or astral projection to get a rough look at it.

There have been times, especially for more complex/dangerous runs, where legwork was a collection of low impact runs all of there own. Something like hitting a clothing warehouse to steal uniforms, a cleaning company's personnel server to add our fake SINs to the records, and then conning/capturing the workers we want to replace before they head out for their shift at the corp lab we're targeting. I know that's not the more traditional definition of legwork, but it ends up a bit more interesting than calling a fixer and paying him to set it up. Also, if it all has to be done on short notice, it can involve everyone fairly easily; sending the face to deal with the crew (bribe, con, seduce, who knows), the hacker to take care of the files and schedule, and the muscle to get the uniforms. One time a glitch on a contact check resulted in owing a favor, immediately cashed in to get us to recover his stolen car. Sometimes it takes a good bit longer than the 15-30 minutes of dice rolling for the hacker or face to do everything, but it keeps a good deal more of the team busy.

[DocTaotsu]

That's the general model we used. Flipping attention goes a long way towards keeping people interested and cutting down on epic dice towers.

[Tarantula]

Flipping attention is how we do it too. I am also of the mindset that there is some information not publicly on the matrix. Things like work schedules for security. Or where the spare key is for the stuffer shack. I don't care how well you roll on your data search, some things you can't answer. Especially a lot of astral defenses. If the hacker is trying to find out info on those, I generally throw them the bone of the site says that so and so or such and such company was hired to setup their astral security. That gives them a direction to head in to find out more either hacking a company, or talking to the guy. Or the team mage could always just head over and take a look too.

One thing you can not get from matrix alone is a visual of the building (unless you delve into hacking the site). This can be invaluable, as blueprints can be outdated, or guard patrols changed. Being able to head over, drop a camera to record overnight, and pick it back up and review how everything works can be invaluable to making sure it goes off without a hitch.

For more run-down buildings.... sure, the blueprints might show that theres a big wall thats virtually impenetrable there. But due to lack of maintainence, its crumbling on the outside and could probably broken into fairly simply. Things like that that the plans don't show you, but looking for yourself you'll spot.

[Wesley Street]

I separate snooping, i.e. surveying the target of a run be it physically, astrally or virtually, from Legwork which is more about working the meat space and digital rumor mill. I put caps on the number of rolls a hacker can make when doing a Matrix search as not every bit of relevant info can be found by using a Browse program. For the non-hackers I go around the table and ask them if they would like to get in touch with any of their contacts and ask specific questions. Before the game I'll create topic charts using the Matrix (2, 4, 8, 16) and Contact (1, 2, 3, 4) thresholds with appropriate social modifiers as necessary.

I try not to treat Legwork as a make-or-break action for the game but rather as a procedure that makes the PCs lives easier. If they aren't asking the right questions or are having bad rolls and the game depends on them finding a bit of info in a certain amount of time I'll push them in the right direction.

[Tarantula]

Just an FYI, data search thresholds are 4, 8, 12, and 16. Not 2, 4, 8, 16.

[DireRadiant]

Data Search - Go Hacker..
Knowledge Skills - Does the PC already know something?
Active Skills - What can the PC do to find out more? Amazing what you can find out if you just go eyeball something, or ask around.
-- Scout AStrally
-- Scout Matrix
-- Scout EW
-- Social Skills, ask the locals
-- Perception Checks
-- General Surveillance
Contacts - See above

What awesome idea can the player come up with that justifies a roll? Bring it on! As a Gm you can't possibly think of everything, bring it out of the players!

[Hammer]

My group all participates in legwork. They delegate information finding tasks to those best suited to find the kind of info the need be it by skill or contact. Some runs some characters shine more than others.

[Malachi]

There are times when my players want to do something that ends up being a "mini-run" as well. These kind of scenes are key (IMO) to keeping everyone at the table interested and engaged.

How about good stories? Have you or anyone in your group done anything particularly smart, strange, or stupid for legwork?

[Malachi]

I remembered an interesting little bit here that might help some people in adding those little "colour" or "real world" entertainment moments.

The group was hired to shadow a prominent scientist as he vacationed at Cougar Mountain Resort in Seattle for a ski holiday in the hopes of getting some intel on what he's been working on lately. Part of the group got some fake IDs and infiltrated the Resort from the inside while the other half of the group decided to do surveillance from the mountainside. Because they were going to be up there for a week, the Rigger in the group had the foresight to go out and get himself some camping gear. He went to the local hardware store and picked up a tent, some supplies, and a sleeping bag. The last item was where the entertainment came:
Me: "Any sleeping bag in particular?"
PC: "Nope whatever is there."
Me: "Ok, you grab the one that was on sale. After you leave the store you notice you've purchased a Karl Kombatmage sleeping bag. It glows in the dark. Looking at it in AR, it projects a big advertisement for Karl Kombatmage III (in theatres this fall)."
PC: "Ack, I better remove that AR tag then! I guess I'll turn it inside out so it doesn't glow on the mountain top..."

Now, picking up on this funny little tidbit, the group's Troll-tank jumps in. This particular character has a "childish" side to him.
PC: "I go out and buy the set of all four Transmorphing Space Ninja sleeping bags!"

The player had just made up "Transmorphing Space Ninjas" but I decided to roll with it because it was fun.
Me: "Ok you pick up the whole set. Do you want to remove their AR tags?"
PC: "Probably... what are they doing?"
Me: "Well alone you just see the TSN character in some poses, but when you put all four bags close together... all four Ninja's form together into the giant robot-vehicle they use to clobber the villain at the end of each episode!"
PC: "Cool! No way I'm erasing those tags!"

That's just an example of how GM's can inject a little fun and create a good memory out of what would otherwise be a forgettable moment in the run. It also gives great opportunities for good RPers to demonstrate their character, as with the Troll in the above case.

[Aaron]

What I do is I make sure that Matrix searches rarely turn up the desired information, but rather information on where to find the desired information.

[Cain]

Every game I've played in has had the decker dominating legwork. This includes games run by a Commando, as well as many other GM's. Flipping attention alleviates the problem somewhat, but it doesn't change the fact that the decker is the center of all the legwork. All anyone else can do is call a contact, who may or may not know something useful.

Even when you (unfairly, IMO) keep the bulk of the necessary info off the matrix, you'll discover important information by searching the matrix. For one thing, you'll discover that someone involved is powerful enough to keep the information off the matrix. For another, you'll learn places where you can start getting info, such as bars or hangouts. Once you have that info, you can start hunting down the people/info you're looking for, by unleashing your Face or Sam with Intimidate. But to get there, you need to start with a matrix search.

There's also a lot of information that should exist on the matrix. Like security guard companies, partner corporations, janitorial and food services, the names of certain execs, and so on and so forth. If you just go straight to a contact and ask: "Whatd'ya know?", you're likely to annoy the contact, who may not have any more information that you could have got in a one minute Data Search.

Deckers also double as riggers; and drones are the undisputed kings of real-time intelligence. So, they've got the biggest information source covered, as well as the live feeds. That puts a lot of information in the hands of one person.

[Trillinon]

The solution I found for the legwork problem was to handwave a large portion of it. My players and I have a general agreement that they're professionals and know what they're doing, so there's a list of information they're simply going to try to find out about any given run, and if it's a simple matter of doing some data searches and pressing a little flesh, I simple give them the information.

Which isn't to say they don't play out any legwork. I like to choose a thing or two that will take a little extra work, and I concentrate on making the effort to get that info interesting.

Also, each run comes with unique things that the players want to know, usually that I never even considered. In these cases, the players do legwork in game, and tend to get quite creative.

[Malachi]

Even when you (unfairly, IMO) keep the bulk of the necessary info off the matrix...

It might be your opinion that it's "unfair" to keep information off of the Matrix, but be aware than that it is your choice to give the task of getting that info solely to the Hackers. I have always envisioned Data Search tests as a beefed up "Google" for something. Considering no Hacking rolls are involved then all info gathered is in a public place. Corps are not stupid, they will not put security-sensitive information on publicly accessible Matrix sites. Most of the time the information that runners are looking for is the "security-sensitive" kind. Therefore it must be acquired through something other than a Data Search roll.

... you'll discover important information by searching the matrix. For one thing, you'll discover that someone involved is powerful enough to keep the information off the matrix. For another, you'll learn places where you can start getting info, such as bars or hangouts. Once you have that info, you can start hunting down the people/info you're looking for, by unleashing your Face or Sam with Intimidate. But to get there, you need to start with a matrix search.

None of this is in dispute. The Matrix specialist gets the initial info, then other roles in the group go and do their thing to gather the info. Multiple party members are now involved. What's the problem here?

There's also a lot of information that should exist on the matrix. Like security guard companies, partner corporations, janitorial and food services, the names of certain execs, and so on and so forth. If you just go straight to a contact and ask: "Whatd'ya know?", you're likely to annoy the contact, who may not have any more information that you could have got in a one minute Data Search.

Also, not arguing this. However, anyone with a Commlink could find this kind of info. I wouldn't even call for any sort of roll to find it. You said that questions with basic answers are likely to annoy the contact, why? Because the answers are easy, are readily available? Why are they readily available? Because everyone can quickly look them up, right? Not just people with a Data Search skill and a good Browse program, but any joe-nobody, right? If you really did need a tricked-out 'link with an expensive Browse program and a good Data Search skill for every little factoid, then contacts and Fixers would be brokering that info because it would be difficult for the average person to find. Your comment implies that you agree that this info would be easy to find, so make it easy to find.

Deckers also double as riggers; and drones are the undisputed kings of real-time intelligence. So, they've got the biggest information source covered, as well as the live feeds. That puts a lot of information in the hands of one person.

Hackers can double as Riggers but not always. I consider the two as separate roles within a group and if you have someone with more than one role they're going to have more responsibilities. However, SR being a tech-rich world, a tech-specialist will see a lot of use. It is up to the GM to ensure that their role does not overshadow the skills of everyone else in the group.

[CoyoteNZ]

Considering no Hacking rolls are involved then all info gathered is in a public place. Corps are not stupid, they will not put security-sensitive information on publicly accessible Matrix sites. Most of the time the information that runners are looking for is the "security-sensitive" kind. Therefore it must be acquired through something other than a Data Search roll.

I think this is under estimating Data Search and Browse a little actually.

Finding and getting access to an appropriate network requires an Extended Data Search + Browse (8, 1 day) Test. Once connected...

And this is in the software piracy section where it states that these aren't regular public sites, as these are found and taken down within minutes by law enforcement. So I kind of feel that this implies (infers?) that this skill/software combo will actually find a lot deeper info than 'publicly available information'.

I personally find it weird that pirating software only takes a browse skill, but not as weird as you still (somehow) end up paying 10% of the software price for pirated software done this way, but I expect that is more game balancing than anything.

Still, for a lot of the 'good' information, I agree and say a hacking run should be required rather than a extended browse test, but then again unless you have more than one party member going on the run, you probably want to avoid that as much as you can.


Max,
Dunedin. NZ

[Tarantula]

I think he was saying you're not breaking into any sites with a data search. Even for pirated software, they're trying to hide the sites yes, but are the sites protected and require an exploit test to hack in? No? Then they're public.

[Wesley Street]

Just an FYI, data search thresholds are 4, 8, 12, and 16. Not 2, 4, 8, 16.

Hmm... I'll check my books when I get home but I'll assume I'm wrong and state that I stand corrected, good sir. *bow*

[Prime Mover]

Something I've noticed in recent games is the hacker does attempt to make other legwork obsolete by trying to find a way to do in the matrix what everyone at the table suggests they can do in person. Dire Radiants post above listing different means of legwork has got me thinking. The players need to reinvision the definition of legwork rather then just default to a "hogging" hacker.

[Blade]

In the campaign I play in, we don't have any hacker, but some of us have an agent or the data search skill and a browse program so we can also search the Matrix if necessary. So far (which isn't much, we've only had two sessions), most of the legwork has been done through contacts and facing, though.

In the campaign I GM, the hacker will often start the legwork with a quick search, while the other characters will try yo use their knowledge skill. This will give them an overview of the matter. Then it'll be a mix of Matrix search, discussion with contacts and investigation on the street. Sure the hacker might have access to a lot more of information, but there are some data that simply aren't on the Matrix (for example he wasn't able to find the accounting of a religious care center that was subsidied by the Vory because they only use disconnected e-paper to store that data) and there are so many things on the Matrix and so many possibilities to look for that quite often he doesn't have enough time to do everything. (I use longer search times than those in the BBB)

[Malachi]

Of course the Hacker will want to do everything in the Matrix, and the Face will want to do everything in person etc. It's up to the GM to ensure each of these roles gets a chance to participate.

[tete]

Every game I've played in has had the decker dominating legwork. This includes games run by a Commando, as well as many other GM's. Flipping attention alleviates the problem somewhat, but it doesn't change the fact that the decker is the center of all the legwork. All anyone else can do is call a contact, who may or may not know something useful.

Even when you (unfairly, IMO) keep the bulk of the necessary info off the matrix, you'll discover important information by searching the matrix. For one thing, you'll discover that someone involved is powerful enough to keep the information off the matrix. For another, you'll learn places where you can start getting info, such as bars or hangouts. Once you have that info, you can start hunting down the people/info you're looking for, by unleashing your Face or Sam with Intimidate. But to get there, you need to start with a matrix search.

There's also a lot of information that should exist on the matrix. Like security guard companies, partner corporations, janitorial and food services, the names of certain execs, and so on and so forth. If you just go straight to a contact and ask: "Whatd'ya know?", you're likely to annoy the contact, who may not have any more information that you could have got in a one minute Data Search.

I've been thinking about this a lot and I think I came up with something. The adventures are written WRONG. Frankly they are still stuck in the GM vs PC mentality and don't reflect reality (bare with me). If you look at the movie HEAT as an example, they are hired by a guy who gives them the bank layouts, circuit boards all the information they need. This should be a cakewalk but leads to the big gun battle. RONIN is another great example where the "johnson" tells them where the case will be and they follow it from location to location. Ever since DNA/DOA johnsons have been out to screw with the pcs or to say "I need this done you figure it out". I say that idea is wrong, if the johnson really wants the job done they will have done some legwork already for you and calculated a risk vs reward strategy. Perhaps the way in which we have done legwork for years just doesn't fit in a more modern setting with information so available. I know movies are not real life but if we as GMs assumed a johnson already did some legwork, deckers might not steal the show so much.

Deckers also double as riggers; and drones are the undisputed kings of real-time intelligence. So, they've got the biggest information source covered, as well as the live feeds. That puts a lot of information in the hands of one person.

Heavy on the nuyen and karma though...

[Blade]

I still don't see what's wrong with the master of information (the hacker) being a master of information. What's next? Complaining that mages are the masters of magic?

[Wesley Street]

I've been thinking about this a lot and I think I came up with something. The adventures are written WRONG. Frankly they are still stuck in the GM vs PC mentality and don't reflect reality (bare with me). If you look at the movie HEAT as an example, they are hired by a guy who gives them the bank layouts, circuit boards all the information they need. This should be a cakewalk but leads to the big gun battle. RONIN is another great example where the "johnson" tells them where the case will be and they follow it from location to location. Ever since DNA/DOA johnsons have been out to screw with the pcs or to say "I need this done you figure it out". I say that idea is wrong, if the johnson really wants the job done they will have done some legwork already for you and calculated a risk vs reward strategy. Perhaps the way in which we have done legwork for years just doesn't fit in a more modern setting with information so available. I know movies are not real life but if we as GMs assumed a johnson already did some legwork, deckers might not steal the show so much.

I think it depends on the adventure. Unless it's all the player is interested in, freelance shadowrunners aren't simply guns-for-hire; they have information networks a Johnson wouldn't. It's assumed that even a 0 Karma PC has some sort of web of contacts to work with that the "daylight" world doesn't. If a corporate Johnson is hiring a runner team (and isn't looking for a patsy or a fall guy) it's likely he doesn't have a lot to go on else he would simply send in his own goons. Also, what a lot of players forget (my own included) is that Johnsons are contacts. If a player discovers a lead but needs more to go on, he can always bring it back to the fellow who hired him and ask him to flesh it out. In any job there's going to be a back and forth exchange of information between employer and employee.

The Johnson directly screwing the PCs is a tired cliche and I avoid it at all costs in adventures I run. If that's the only twist a writer can come up with, that's very weak.

I still don't see what's wrong with the master of information (the hacker) being a master of information. What's next? Complaining that mages are the masters of magic?

Correction: master of digital information. And even then, a PC with a high Data Search skill and a good Browse program doesn't have to be a hacker. And there are other ways to gather knowledge other than Google. A face with a Rolodex of well-placed contacts is just as powerful in information gathering as an uber-script kiddy.

[Cain]

A face with a Rolodex of well-placed contacts is just as powerful in information gathering as an uber-script kiddy.

But the face has to worry about maintaining those contacts, plus the fact that he needs the right one at the right time. For example, in On the Run, no one is likely to have a contact who knows a lot about obsolete music disks. While a face could simply unleash all his contacts to start asking around, that will get expensive in terms of both nuyen and favors. Plus which, you dramatically increase the chance that someone else will find out that you're looking for information on a given topic.

A Data Search is safe, and free. It gives you better general coverage on a wider array of topics. In other words, it's the linchpin of any legwork operation. Everything revolves around the decker, to the point where it's not unheard-of for players to go out for pizza while the decker does his thing.