Banishing, Does it actually have a use? Options

[Cain]

Okay, I'm going over the Banishing rules with a new player, and we stumble across something interesting.

If you do well enough on a Banishing test, you can take control of the spirit. This means, you could potentially command and bind a type of spirit you cannot usually summon. Correct so far? And said spirit keeps all his powers, right?

Now here's the kicker. Can it keep the Possession power?

If it does, you can theoretically command it to possess you, and do (roughly) what you want it to. If you can't, it's relatively useless, since it cannot materialize to use its powers on the physical plane. The Possession power is part of the spirit's abilities, after all.

So, what happens when you steal a Possession spirit?

Discuss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Ravor]

I don't think I would want to command a spirit that I had just "stole" to possess me without the Channeling Metamagic, which I for one would never let a non-possession Mage learn in the first place.

[Ryu]

Yes, you could gain access to a possession spirit this way. Very nice toy, certainly worth a slot on your list of bound spirits.

You will likely not want to buy the channeling metamagic, so how about preparing a mini-drone vessel?

[Fortune]

As far as I know, the Spirit retains all their normal Powers and other stats when taken over by Banishing. So, yes, you could indeed have it possess your character, if you were so inclined.

[TheOOB]

Unless their previous master abused them, most spirits won't take kindly to another master stealing them and forcing them into service, more so if the spirit is from another tradition then the magician. Expect such spirits to use edge on summoning and binding resistance tests, and to subvert orders.

Here is a question, is you stole a bound spirit that you couldn't normally summon...say an invoked guidance spirit, could you build an ally spirit with one of their powers...say astral gateway?

[Drogos]

If you are stealing invoked spirits, you are clearly a god and command the astralverse (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In truth, though, doesn't the rules on Ally Spirits state that it can have any power from spirits you can summon? The inability to summon said Guidance spirit seems the rub.

And if you manage to successfully banish a spirit without knocking yourself the fuck out, let me know.

[Rasumichin]

Unless their previous master abused them, most spirits won't take kindly to another master stealing them and forcing them into service, more so if the spirit is from another tradition then the magician.

Which is why dedicated spirit thieves do their research and gather information about magicians who treat their spirits badly.
Knowledge skills such as Mages Who Abuse Bound Spirits, Badass Mages From Other Traditions Than My Own or Spirits Looking For New Employment may come in handy.^^

[pbangarth]

This is a pretty gray area, but I believe that while one can Banish any spirit, the ensuing opportunity to Summon is still restricted to spirits that are part of the summoner's tradition.

The text under "Banishing" on page 180, SR4 says, " can make a Summoning Test against the spirit before it departs." Three points must be considered.

1) Let's assume the spirit is one of the 5 types allowed by the magician's tradition. If the spirit has been summoned by a Possession Tradition mage, then after being Banished it will automatically go into the Astral Plane. It can't exist on the Material Plane outside of a vessel. What is to say that the Summoning from a different tradition would not transform the spirit into a Materialization form as part of the process? The whole discussion of what spirits really are argues that it could be that the form of the spirit is determined at least in part by the character of the summoner.

2) A Materialization Tradition Mage would not have the ability to control, direct or manipulate possession. Any more than she could deal with Sprites.

3) The Summoning Test is described on page 179, SR4. It says, "A magician may only summon spirits of her tradition." You may very well make a Summoning Test, but if the spirit doesn't match your list of 5 types, you will fail. It won't come to you. End of story.

Peter

[Fortune]

No, the developers have right come out and stated that you can play Pokemon with any and all Spirits, even those your character could not normally summon himself.

[pbangarth]

Fortune, any chance you can tell me where the developers said that?

Also, cool quote from Rommel. Any idea where he said that? I'd like to get the context.

Peter

[Fortune]

I'm looking for the thread.

As for the Rommel quote, sorry but I have no idea. I read it in a book as being credited to him, but it lacked context.

[Fortune]

Here's a couple of threads ...

Can you bind a spirit from another tradition?

Banishing (not this thread!)

In case you were not aware of it, FrankTrollman wrote the Spirit chapter for Street Magic.

[knasser]

Though it must be said that not everything the Frank says he intended was approved to be in the actual rules. (It sometimes would have been better if it had, mind you *cough*bloodzilla*cough*).

At any rate, I don't think it's unbalanced under most circumstances for a materialisation mage to banish and control possession spirits or vice versa. The effect of this when you have a team containing both kinds of magician however, might be a bit more interesting, as they try to swap spirits with each other.

Khadim.

[Ravor]

I would think that "swapping" spirits back and forth willy-nilly would count towards abuse.

[knasser]

I would think that "swapping" spirits back and forth willy-nilly would count towards abuse.

Good idea.

[Apathy]

I would think that "swapping" spirits back and forth willy-nilly would count towards abuse.

I don't know. If summoning in itself wasn't abuse, then why would "swapping" be abuse? Why would the spirit care which silly human gave the orders if it was amenable to taking orders in the first place? (This assumes a less 'personal' relationship between summoner and spirit. If the flavor of your magical approach involves bargaining or wooing the spirit for favors, I might see them as viewing the banishing/summoning [bait-an-switch?] trick differently.)

Also, in this scenario, which mage would pick up the bad reputation - the acquiring mage or the mage who gives the spirit away?

[WeaverMount]

Where this gets really abusing (from a balance angle) is once again spirits of man. If you swap an F6 spirit of man you could also give it two spells that cost you money and time (re-binding) rather than karma.

[knasser]

I don't know. If summoning in itself wasn't abuse, then why would "swapping" be abuse? Why would the spirit care which silly human gave the orders if it was amenable to taking orders in the first place? (This assumes a less 'personal' relationship between summoner and spirit. If the flavor of your magical approach involves bargaining or wooing the spirit for favors, I might see them as viewing the banishing/summoning [bait-an-switch?] trick differently.)

Also, in this scenario, which mage would pick up the bad reputation - the acquiring mage or the mage who gives the spirit away?

Well it's very much a flavour issue. I agree that summoning could be considered unpleasant (and in some circumstances, I would have a spirit resist it with Edge), but I just regard the banishing process as definitely unpleasant. There's no requirement to view it like that, I just see it as such.

As to who gets the bad reputation... well even a Force 3 spirit is as smart as most people you know. I'd say the spirit will be irritated by both mages if they're friends and deliberately arranging to swap the spirit with each other. But as you say, it's a flavour thing, though imo a good one.

K.

[Cain]

I don't know enough to go one way or the other, but would swapping really constitute spirit abuse? Particularly if the spirit is then well-treated and seldom used?

[Whipstitch]

Context is everything, and this would be an area where I'd look to the traditions involved as a guide. A Shaman entrusting an ancestor spirit to the service of a respectful Buddhist ally might have different consequences than a Nahuali lending a manifestation of his spirit twin to a Hermetic who views spirits as simple astral constructs.

[Rasumichin]

At any rate, I don't think it's unbalanced under most circumstances for a materialisation mage to banish and control possession spirits or vice versa. The effect of this when you have a team containing both kinds of magician however, might be a bit more interesting, as they try to swap spirits with each other.

What we have to consider here is that the team in this example would have access to both types of spirits anyway.
I can imagine some examples where it would really expand the team's abilities, e.g. only one of the mages would have to pick up the invoking metamagic.
In the case of, say, a Hermetic with CHA 1 and a Houngan with CHA7, it may also be useful to hand spirits over to the houngan to have a more well-rounded arsenal of spirits at hand, as the Houngan could bind 6 more spirits than the Hermetic.
No need to run around with 1 materialization and 7 posession spirits when you can arrange something more flexible, right?

However, effects of this would be pretty minor.
Yeah, the houngan could have a spirit of man sustain 2 F6 natural spells on him.
But this would also be the case without handing over control and the spirit's spell selection wouldn't change, either.

Balance wise, i don't see much of an issue here, with very minor exceptions, the team's ressources stay the same and what little improvement is achieved is just an acceptable and certainly not unbalancing effect of good teamwork (and keep in mind that it involves buying up a skill a lot of players would normally ditch).

As far as the fluff is concerned, however, keep in mind that being banished is painful to the spirit.
Such attempts should ideally either be reserved to emergencies like averting a magical threat or be combined with efforts to appease the spirits for their discomfort, by offering sacrifices to them (above the point where sacrifices are a part of Binding anyway), fulfilling tasks in their interest and so on.

If such preparations are met, i see no problem with swapping spirits within the team.

However, deliberately giving away spirits becomes potentially nasty when you include people outside of the team.
Say, a kind of Hermetic slave trader ring who sells spirits of man to traditions who normally cannot summon them (man, this thread gives some great ideas for my next group of magical villains).
This, however, is certainly an area where the trader (and, most likely, also the customer) run a high risk of acquiring the Spirit Bane quality or at least spirits using their Edge on a regular basis to resist summoning and binding.

[Fortune]

Though it must be said that not everything the Frank says he intended was approved to be in the actual rules.

To be fair, I have never seen Frank misrepresent actual canon rules. If he has a problem with the rules, he is not shy in voicing his opinion, along with possible solutions. But when he posts about an alternate way of doing things, or a house rule, then he always clearly delineates it as such.

[Lionhearted]

No, the developers have right come out and stated that you can play Pokemon with any and all Spirits, even those your character could not normally summon himself.

*you throw a pokéball at enemy trainers Pokémon*
*Enemy trainer slaps the ball away*
"Hey! no stealing"

[knasser]

To be fair, I have never seen Frank misrepresent actual canon rules. If he has a problem with the rules, he is not shy in voicing his opinion, along with possible solutions. But when he posts about an alternate way of doing things, or a house rule, then he always clearly delineates it as such.

Ah, I didn't mean to imply that he had. It's only with your post that I've realised how my comment is likely to be interpreted. I have always found Frank absolutely scrupulous in distinguishing house rules and suggestions from RAW. I was only intending to counter any notion that just because Frank as a sometime developer says on these boards that he does something, doesn't make it official (same for the other devs, actually). But following your links I see that he's talking about the situation under RAW, so it's valid to say that and my comment is likely to be misinterpreted. Frank is a very good guide to what RAW actually is (as well as a wonderfully vocal discusser of what it should be).

Apologies for putting things so very badly. I didn't follow your links originally.

K.

[Fortune]

No harm, no foul! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)