Dodge vs Gymnastics Dodge Options

[Hagga]

Please. If they're that bouncy, they're just going to jump right over a sweep.

Wear them down. Most people aren't in very good shape, and can't keep up the bouncy stuff for more than a minute or two. If they are better than that, you're probably dead anyway, so there's no harm in trying to run them out of energy.

At Amberly, if you wore the instructors down by making them work to hit you, they really tore into you when they finally caught you.
Good motivation to get better.

[toturi]

Note that I said kick their legs out from under them, not a sweep. A good kick to the thigh is very good for wearing people out and very difficult to evade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

Some Muay Thai instructors teach knee strikes by having their trainees kick each other's thighs. A good kick to the thigh might just break your foot. A good technique, though, would be use a knee strike against the foot that is seeking your thigh. Chances are his foot will break first.

At Amberly, if you wore the instructors down by making them work to hit you, they really tore into you when they finally caught you.
Good motivation to get better.

That'd depend on what style your instructers are teaching and where you are fighting. If you wore them down properly, when they catch you, they'd be too tired to tear into you.

[Cthulhudreams]

Shadowrun combat is just to fast to seriously entertain thoughts of wearing them down. You typically have less than 6 seconds before someone pulls an SMG and turns you into pink mist. (that can be as many as 8 IPs)

I've always thought of SR combat as brutal high speed assaults focused on highly aggressive combat styles emphasizing rapid take downs.

Anything else is just going to get you killed.

[Cain]

Note that I said kick their legs out from under them, not a sweep. A good kick to the thigh is very good for wearing people out and very difficult to evade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

Point. Although I still say wearing them down is a good idea. In a real fight, most people run out of steam in the first minute or so.

[Ravor]

Good, then you'll be happy to learn that the guy in that clip was not a martial artist, but rather an Olympic gymnast, and therefore I guess you can take advice from him.

Feeling snarky today? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Arashi]

I like gymnastic dodge, though I don't think you have to think it is all corny Kung-Fu theatre-style actions. I would add to the conversation that a "Gymnastic Dodge" could have the fluff connotations of high-flying ninja movies and cartwheels if you like - OR it could be more down to earth.

Consider a 'gymnastics' more along the line of Parkour. Even though Parkour philosophy doesn't formally codify specific maneuvers, practitioners do train individual skills that highly represent gymnastic-level techniques while being a lot less complex and diverse than gymnastics. These have been developed to the point of competitions and being featured in movies.

One in particular is called District B13, an english language release of the French action film "Banlieue 13". Starring the creator of Parkour, David Belle, there are a lot of great scenes where I could see 'gymnastic dodge' applying in both melee and ranged. Given that this discipline has developed in just a few years, add 60+ years to it and I can see it being a full-fledged possibility.

Game-mechanic wise, I would penalize Gymnastic Dodge in the same way that the BBB p160 uses for vehicle tests re: Terrain.

i.e. Tighter terrain = harder to maneuver = die pool modifier (= to the threshold listed for vehicles)
(afterthought: I might lessen the penalty if there was room to go up and the character had Climbing
at the level of penalty*2, to reflect the ability to use vertical movement to an advantage.)

I look at Dodge being akin to training reflexive short movements, as well as internalizing the knowledge that human eyes don't track sideways very well and practicing movement along angles of attack and evasion. Think a boxer moving his head just under or to the side of a punch, or the pistol duel between Wesley Snipes and Michael Biehn in "The Art of War".

YMMV

[Karaden]

The thing is that with the dodge skill for ranged combat, it isn't actually about dodging bullets. No one is even remotely that fast, even if you had wired reflexes and all that. It is about performing quick, sudden, and unexpected changes in your direction to make leading you more difficult.

This is very similar to what people do in American football, they have to try and fake the person out so they tackle in the wrong direction. So yeah, I can see someone who is good at gymnastics being able to do something like that fairly easily.

The specialization of dodge comes in that if you spec in ranged, your better at the sudden shifts in direction, and good at making them random so people can't anticipate a change. A melee dodge is more about being able to see the attack and move your body out of the way then misleading your opponent.

A gymnast would have more difficulty with this as it requires a direct reaction to the attack as opposed to simply moving around alot. This is why the two are the same effectiveness at range, but dodge is more effective in melee. When you get into a block with a gymnastics dodge, your talking about the gymnast part bouncing around and making a somewhat harder target, and the melee part deflecting the blows that manage to get close.

So yeah, even though the text talks about doing cartwheels and stuff, that would actually make you easier to hit as opposed to harder, cartwheels are difficult to change direction in, thus easier to lead thus easier to hit. So at range both are equally effective in all conditions as far as I'm concerned, but in melee dodge would be more useful in a tight space because your relying more on small controlled movements as opposed to generally bouncing around like crazy.

But as for actual game mechanics... well I think it has been said a few times already so I won't repeat.

[Wounded Ronin]

Uh, wearing someone out in a fight and letting them get tired is a great thing for if you were in a sporting event and the other person has crap stamina. But if you were just trying to jack someone up and he was crappy enough to have crap stamina in the first place, mebbe you should just, you know, hurt him quickly.

EDIT: Here's an amusing video of a fat "karate master" trying to demonstrate his mastery of martial arts. There's three long videos of him fighting horrendously in a light contact setting, but if you want to see the moment where he pretty much faints from exhaustion it's at near the 3:30 mark in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaFHkh-v_ms...feature=related

So, in summary, LOL HE GOT TIRED. (After very litte exercise.)

If you've got the time, watch the preceeding 2 videos. They're extremely funny.



EDIT 2:

If the other person is crappy enough, it would make more sense just to hurt him quickly, rather than your first priority being to dance around till he gets tired: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_taQXTem_X4...feature=related

Waiting till someone gets tired would only make sense if you can't hurt someone immediately, if you think about it.

[Karaden]

That 'light contact' sparring as you put it is actually alot more draining then you'd think, especially since it isn't light contact. Did he collapse after only 3:30 or are the other two videos all part of a series of spars? Don't feel like watching so much to figure out.

But anyway, this really kinda proves that waiting for someone to get tired really isn't a viable option in most fights. That was a bare minimum of 3:30 before he collapsed, and he is obviously in poor shape (Though apparently a black belt if I can see his belt properly, how weird). Sure in a real fight you'd ware down somewhat faster, but not a ton. So unless your fighting Rent-a-cop Joe who weighs 400 lb your going to be waiting a long time for them to tire (And of course you can't exactly just stand still the whole time). Of course if your fighting Joe, you may as well just take him down right away.

The verdict in short is: If you opponent is in bad enough shape that you can wear him down in a reasonable time, you can take him out easily, and if he is good enough that you can't take him out easily, you don't have enough time to wait for him to wear down, all the more so because your going to get tired in the process too.

[AllTheNothing]

Though apparently a black belt if I can see his belt properly, how weird

I too could wear a somemartialart-gi and a black belt, I remember that when I studied judo I had a white belt that started have a greysh hue, had I not washed it....

[Wounded Ronin]

That 'light contact' sparring as you put it is actually alot more draining then you'd think, especially since it isn't light contact. Did he collapse after only 3:30 or are the other two videos all part of a series of spars? Don't feel like watching so much to figure out.

But anyway, this really kinda proves that waiting for someone to get tired really isn't a viable option in most fights. That was a bare minimum of 3:30 before he collapsed, and he is obviously in poor shape (Though apparently a black belt if I can see his belt properly, how weird). Sure in a real fight you'd ware down somewhat faster, but not a ton. So unless your fighting Rent-a-cop Joe who weighs 400 lb your going to be waiting a long time for them to tire (And of course you can't exactly just stand still the whole time). Of course if your fighting Joe, you may as well just take him down right away.

The verdict in short is: If you opponent is in bad enough shape that you can wear him down in a reasonable time, you can take him out easily, and if he is good enough that you can't take him out easily, you don't have enough time to wait for him to wear down, all the more so because your going to get tired in the process too.

He'd actually been doing various activites for maybe 15 minutes before he collapsed. Still though, that's no excuse. A serious fighter shouldn't get tired that quickly, especially a young one. I can take you to a kickboxing gym where serious hobbyists and competitors train and I would guarantee you that you'd see people going much harder on various athletic activities for at least 45 minutes at a stretch. Some very serious athletes I know that train at a MMA gym literally can work out for hours a day, although it makes them get extremely tired and they have to ease off a bit towards the end of that time period.

He has a black belt but he's actually a phony black belt. The events in the video took place because he'd been opening martial arts schools without being qualified and then when some people started to call him on this he decided it would be a good idea to come out and demonstrate his martial prowess by demonstrating some kata and then sparring a few people.

[Arashi]

Karaden <<A gymnast would have more difficulty with this as it requires a direct reaction to the attack as opposed to simply moving around alot. This is why the two are the same effectiveness at range, but dodge is more effective in melee. When you get into a block with a gymnastics dodge, your talking about the gymnast part bouncing around and making a somewhat harder target, and the melee part deflecting the blows that manage to get close.>>

This makes me think of gymnastics even more like vehicle maneuvering... maybe that threshold idea isn't a bad thing. We get to keep the game mechanic for the vehicle test re: terrain in regards to surroundings and also multiple opponents. So, a Parkour practitioner or gymnast with lots of room and only one person might have his full skill effectiveness - but the same defender surrounded by 4 people in a tight tenament hallway would have a threshold of 3 to overcome with gymnastics before even getting any successes to apply.

Though, if he was able to evade the first attack after losing 3 hits, I probably would negate the others' multiple attacker bonuses because it was a mobile defense and he probably angled past someone out of the circle of fire.

This gives a significant bonus to dodge in melee while using an existing game mechanic. Simple and effective, what does the gallery think?

Side Note: I am considering ruling dodge as a physical skill instead of combat skill for purposes of Improved Ability Adept power cost, simply because IMHO it provides less utility and has no attack capability. I don't know if anyone has ever spent 1.5 power points for a wicked dodge, but I know I have seen plenty of people drop 0.75 for world-class gymnastics and get bonuses to breakfall, jumping, balancing, and dodging.

YMMV as always.

[Karaden]

He'd actually been doing various activites for maybe 15 minutes before he collapsed. Still though, that's no excuse. A serious fighter shouldn't get tired that quickly, especially a young one. I can take you to a kickboxing gym where serious hobbyists and competitors train and I would guarantee you that you'd see people going much harder on various athletic activities for at least 45 minutes at a stretch. Some very serious athletes I know that train at a MMA gym literally can work out for hours a day, although it makes them get extremely tired and they have to ease off a bit towards the end of that time period.

He has a black belt but he's actually a phony black belt. The events in the video took place because he'd been opening martial arts schools without being qualified and then when some people started to call him on this he decided it would be a good idea to come out and demonstrate his martial prowess by demonstrating some kata and then sparring a few people.

Your quite correct, which only shows my point all the more. This out of shape kid lasted about 18 minutes, a real fighter could last far longer. Granted in a battle situation the time would be lowered, but it would still be higher then any runner actually has time for.

And yeah, figured I was either seeing it wrong or it was fake.

As for the threshold thing, sounds fine, not sure it should be threshold, maybe just a penalty to DP would work fine.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Wow, I should have started reading this thread sooner.

First off, Gymkata... Amazing. I miss that entire string of horrible 80s and 90s Segal and Van Damme era martial arts movies. Never really watched too many of them because they were so bad, but those scenes that show up on the net are usually priceless. About that 2 minute segment where he is fighting the town as they come at him one at a time I've got two things to say; First, why was there a gymnastics horse in the middle of the town square so he could do that snazzy scene, and second, why did I see him do the same two kicks on the same 2 guys over 3 times? The recycled stock footage was giving me flashbacks to watching DBZ.


Gymnastics in a fight... Yeah, cartwheeling and jumping around makes it really really hard for someone to change direction. If you ever play a FPS game, don't jump through the air, you'll just be sniped. Don't do jumping or flying techniques because your path is set after you leave the ground. And don't cartwheel towards your enemy like this tool...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7157QMW9abM
Does anyone remember "Only the Strong?" Another one of those horrible 90s martial arts exploitation films.

Also, found a vid that you might all appreciate. I had no idea that Kiai was a real martial art (or at least a real faked one) that existed IRL. I thought it was just something dumped into the SR world like Firefight, Carrmolegg, etc. Found this to make everybody's day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I...feature=related

Also, I call BS on that MMA vs kung fu video. If you look in the first second of the fight at the way the kung fu "expert" approaches the dude, you can see he's either a fakey douche or a total noob.

Also, I say that there shouldn't be penalties for using gymnastics dodge in confined areas because all that would happen would be a change of gymnastic technique, not a total hinderence of ability. Instead of fliping out of the way, the dude might bounce off the wall.

[Glyph]

Don't you love how there is a mob of like 200 people there, but they only come at him 1 or 2 at a time? I mean anyone with decent combat skills and endurance could take down 200 (untrained) people if they only have to fight one at a time.

Obviously, none of those people were Shadowrun players, so they didn't know about the "friends in melee" bonus.

[Karaden]

Obviously, none of those people were Shadowrun players, so they didn't know about the "friends in melee" bonus.

Obviously.

[streetangelj]

Wasn't "Only the Strong" the Marc Dacascos flick where he teaches the inner city kids Capoiera? I loved that flick (but I'm a big fan of his work ever since "Crow: Stairway to Heaven"). For those of you unsure who Dacascos is you might know him as Tyre from Stargate: Atlantis and "TheChairman" of Iron Chef America.

[Wounded Ronin]

Wasn't "Only the Strong" the Marc Dacascos flick where he teaches the inner city kids Capoiera?

Yes. And hilariously one of the eville public school teachers refers to the main character, being an Army veteran who has recently started teaching at that school, as "Mr. Death Squad". That's over-the-top-to-the-point-of-unbelievableness movie villany.

[Remjin]

You've obviously never been in a fist fight with someone who is very agile, people who move around a lot and are flexible are very hard to get a solid hit on, especially when then end up behind you.

That's more of a matter of reading and anticipating your opponent's movements, thus being your melee skill group rather than anything covered by the gymnastics skill. Besides, all you do to bouncy, always in motion people is round kick their legs out from under them.

Please. If they're that bouncy, they're just going to jump right over a sweep.

Wear them down. Most people aren't in very good shape, and can't keep up the bouncy stuff for more than a minute or two. If they are better than that, you're probably dead anyway, so there's no harm in trying to run them out of energy.

Note that I said kick their legs out from under them, not a sweep. A good kick to the thigh is very good for wearing people out and very difficult to evade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

Okay, this is likely going to come across as condescending, but it isn't intended as such...

Flexible, fast, agile, acrobatic, whatever... its going to come down to a lot of factors that just all boils down to skill. Having fought legal, illegal, gloved and bare-knuckled in years past (and no, I wasn't all that good, just dumb enough to do it) you can't boil down any one factor to being a winning trait. I've seen slow and inflexible guys waste people and I've seen odd monkey-like wild jittery freaks win it as well. I've been in fights where highly athletic groups of people with baseball bats have lost to a couple of guys who just didn't seem to mind getting hit with bats (and no, I won't say which side I was on... but it was a tad ugly for both sides). I've seen guys flip off walls and get handed their own butts for it and I once saw a guy almost touch his head to the ground while knocking a guy out with his foot on the upswing. I've actually seen a guy win by destroying the other guy's fist with his own. In the end, it just came down to skill and how they implemented on the traits they had. Arguing maneuver or attribute to attribute will just be a long, drawn out and pointless argument started by talking about a guy who can actually play off using a ladder as a weapon versus a dozen people to the vast amusement of all.

Let's not take ourselves too seriously, we play pretend as a hobby. =)

And thanks to all for clarifying the various niceties of the dodge and gymnastics points for me. I was curious about that as well.

[Remjin]

Ah, so nice to see more of that bullshit mystical stuff put away... *sigh* There is some amazing stuff that can be done with chi/ki to a point, but some of that crap out there is so much garbage its good to see it put to rest.

As far as "wearing down" opponents and such, I don't know about most of you but I don't get it many "bouts" these days but I have occasionally had to defend myself or a loved one... and the only tactic that has ever worked for me is to win, quickly, and not play around. I don't wanna drop my cigarette or break a sweat, afterall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Crush it, break it, rip it, disable it, remove it, poke it, cut it, shoot it, slash it, stab it, and run. Do the fewest possible to win then always go for the run. (they always have friends) Its what they're trying to do to you, so do it smarter, faster, or better and get the hell out of there. Let the jerks bounce around and play at fighting, I like my life and would like to resume it as quickly as possible.

Feel free to ignore my rather pessimistic and paranoid view of the world (as always), I've spent enough time in the hospital for stupid decisions that I have a certain outlook on things.

[Cain]

I suppose I'm obligated to clarify.

When you fight someone who's bouncing around like an idiot, odds are that they are an idiot. Watch this video for an example. Let Mr. Bouncy Ball run himself out of steam, or bounce his way into a mistake.

Now, that debacle was between trained fighters. Between untrained people, many (but not all!) simply don't know what to do. They'll copy whatever looked good on the last TV show they watched. Wearing down a normal person is easy, and ou can always take advantage of any openings you find along the way.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

BTT - as a GM, I'm pretty brutal when it comes to Gymnastic Dodge:

If movement is restricted, Gymnastic Dodge will get additional penalties, compared to other full Defense options.
If other physical skills apply to the situation (Swinning, Diving, Climbing, Parachuting, Flight), Gymnastics isn't allowed at all, but the applicable physical skill (or Dodge) is.

Now, that debacle was between trained fighters.

Actually, like pointed out in the YT comments, it's from Never Back Down.

[Tachi]

There are some things I'd really like to say here after reading the rest of this thread, but I'm not going to because I don't like to start arguments. What I will say is this:

Any fight that lasts longer than 5 seconds per opponent exponentially increases your chances of being seriously injured. In real life you must destroy your opponent as quickly as possible. Period. Since I actually learned real H-2-H ten years ago I have not been in a fight that lasted longer than this.

I do not sport fight. I do not practice modern martial arts because they are pale, watered down, civilianized, exercise versions of once great fighting techniques. On the other hand, several supposedly useless and outdated military combatives styles are nearly unstoppable if properly applied. Find someone who teaches the old styles or CQC. (Like getting your "black belt" by having your white one turn black with dirt, sweat, and blood. What idiot came up with this absurd colored belt system?) Fighting is COMBAT not a sport. Train for sport combat, and I guarantee that I will eat your fucking lunch.

Ground fighting is suicide in real life. BJJ/MMA is garbage when there are no rules. Yeah, go to the ground, that's where the broken glass is, not to mention giving his friends a chance to really mess you up. Like a friend of mine in the military told me, "This BJJ stuff they're teaching the new recruits is pathetic, yeah like I'm gonna take a muj down and roll around on the ground with him until one of his dumb ass friends runs up and shoots us both."


Remjin*QFT*
As far as "wearing down" opponents and such, I don't know about most of you but I don't get it many "bouts" these days but I have occasionally had to defend myself or a loved one... and the only tactic that has ever worked for me is to win, quickly, and not play around. I don't wanna drop my cigarette or break a sweat, afterall. grinbig.gif Crush it, break it, rip it, disable it, remove it, poke it, cut it, shoot it, slash it, stab it, and RUN. Do the fewest possible to win then always go for the run. (they always have friends) Its what they're trying to do to you, so do it smarter, faster, or better and get the hell out of there. Let the jerks bounce around and play at fighting, I like my life and would like to resume it as quickly as possible. *QFT* (bold/capitalized emphasis mine.... Tachi, RUNNING = the greatest defense in history!)


Some of you may disagree with me, that is your right. But, I have fought 8 vs. 1 with me as the one, at the end, I was the only one standing, I was hurting very badly, but I was on my feet. I'm not the toughest, meanest, or most skilled; I just don't play when it comes to RL violence. I really will rip your ears off, tear your cheek open, or whip out my knife and reduce you to your base pieces. (Consequently, considering my knowledge of anatomy, knife skills, and the fact that I have butchered my own dinner quite a few times, I estimate that I could dismember a human in under 30 seconds, if you want the organs removed without to much damage, add another 30 seconds. Keep in mind that I carry only a 3.5 inch assisted open. Big knives are entirely unnecessary when dealing with humans.)

But, as we all know, opinions vary. However, results speak for themselves. I have defended myself and others against determined attackers, both armed and unarmed, that did not care about their own safety; people who were really and truly trying to KILL me. I'm still here.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Wasn't "Only the Strong" the Marc Dacascos flick where he teaches the inner city kids Capoiera?

Yup. Bah Nah Nah Way! Bah Nah Nah Way... Nah Nah nah!

Ah, so nice to see more of that bullshit mystical stuff put away... *sigh* There is some amazing stuff that can be done with chi/ki to a point, but some of that crap out there is so much garbage its good to see it put to rest.

What's so sad about the practitioners of fake arts like that is that they actually believe they can do those things they demonstrate. Their students are so brainwashed that those demonstrations are more or less real, not because the guy is actually doing it, but because those students actually believe he is doing it to them. There are a ton of videos that are just like that which are a bit more over dramatized where I think the students are actually in on the lie, but for the most part, a lot of them believe it. It takes a special kind of impressionable moron to actually WANT to be a part of that school anyways, so their subsequent manipulation is even easier. If someone who didn't believe in it to begin with entered the school and didn't fall down when the master did his thing then the whole system would be ruined.

When you fight someone who's bouncing around like an idiot, odds are that they are an idiot. Watch this video for an example. Let Mr. Bouncy Ball run himself out of steam, or bounce his way into a mistake.

You brought that to the table a little late. That's the same video I linked to a few posts up.

Actually, like pointed out in the YT comments, it's from Never Back Down.

Ah. Then we can dismiss the video as fad-based MMA exploitation trash.

I do not sport fight. I do not practice modern martial arts because they are pale, watered down, civilianized, exercise versions of once great fighting techniques. On the other hand, several supposedly useless and outdated military combatives styles are nearly unstoppable if properly applied. Find someone who teaches the old styles or CQC. (Like getting your "black belt" by having your white one turn black with dirt, sweat, and blood. What idiot came up with this absurd colored belt system?) Fighting is COMBAT not a sport. Train for sport combat, and I guarantee that I will eat your fucking lunch.

This is why I am thankful that when I was young my parents saw how ridiculous the first modern TKD school they dumped me into was. Luckily they enrolled me in a very traditional taekwondo (Chung Do Kwan for all of you historians) school after that. I'm not going to beat around the bush, there are colored belts, but when you get to black belt, that's when the real training begins. It's like the colored belts were added as a pre-cursor to the real martial art for most modern audiences and if you still want to do it at black belt then you get to learn stuff that's actually useful. It's such a shame that people think that having a black belt means anything. In good old fashioned traditional martial arts like mine, black belt is where the training would have started 70 years ago in Korea. This is where you start actually learning the meat of the art, not just the movements. Application of force, speed, and focus to a single point to drop an opponent. One hit, one kill philosophy. Do it right or GTFO because you'll die in a fight where you can't.

I'm not going to lie, I've never been in a life or death situation IN A FIGHT. I bet I've got the focus and mentality to translate what I've learned into survival though. The skills are there in the muscle memory. The mentality will kick in when necessary. It has kicked in during other life or death situations that I've gotten myself out of though. I've avoided more car accidents (sevaral of which would have been fatal) because of the learned ability to adopt that frame of mind that's do or die.

That's part of the reason I like really traditional martial arts training though. It's not just about the skills you learn for a fight, but it teaches you the ability to focus and use that super serious attitude to get anything done across all aspects of life. Just having really good fight skills really applies to just fighting. I'm not saying that one can't develop the discipline through other means though, because they can. Certain lifestyles are inherently more laced with strong regimented routines rooted in strong levels of discipline because of the severity of consequences in the event of failure.

[Tyro]

Wow... I hadn't expected such a strong/well-written set of responses, much less so quickly. It says something when the OP doesn't reply until page 3 because the thread is that far along before he checks it. For the record, I'm a former MMA/BJJ martial artist (practiced for 3 years), and I agree: it's far too sports-oriented. I had a practice bout with a friend of mine who knew *real* groundfighting once, and got my ass handed to me. I now do traditional Hapkido, and love it.