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> Best Mage Spells and Why, Finding the bests spells for the Versitile Mage
Ragewind
post Nov 2 2008, 05:21 PM
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Hello,

I've been asked to create a spell list for a Magician with Sorcery 7, (meaning 14 spells) Some of the spells like Increase Reflexes (Sustained w/ Foci) is a no brainer however different people can use the same spell with radically different outcomes all depending on how clever that particular person is. Hence my query, what would YOU choose and why>? If you had to make a mage what are some spells you cannot live (no pun intended) without and why do they beat others in the same category. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Example List: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Increase Reflexes (for the INP's)
Stunbolt (Low drain / High Use)
Armor (Keeps you alive)
Lighting bolt (Electricity damage can shutdown electronics)
Heal (Keeps you and your team alive)
Analyze Device (Suddenly the mage can hack better than the hacker!..or drive..or shoot.. etc etc)
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Karaden
post Nov 2 2008, 05:31 PM
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Personally I think Mob Control can be exceedingly useful. Not only can it take out a huge group of enemies at once, it then proceeds to add them to your side. The drain can be a bit heavy, but a few boxes of stun can be well worth it in exchange to having half your enemies turn on each other. As an added bonus it isn't a problem if you catch allies in the spell, because you can control the individuals, or give them all a big group command that is along the lines of what your allies would do anyway (Like shoot badguy X)

And of course if you want to go for quick kills, cast this with no allies caught, and give the group command "Place barrel of gun under chin, pull trigger." or something similar.

If you can handle massive levels of drain (Ware and high stats and whatnot) Mob mind can be even more effective because the victims don't take DP penalties to aiding you, and they can't call for help or give warnings or anything.

6s (Before resit) in exchange for taking out an entire regiment of enemies? Sounds like a fair exchange to me. 6s in exchange for gaining an entire regiment of former enemies? Sounds amazing to me.

Edit: Heck, the mob mind spell can also be very useful for a passifist. Cast that on everyone and force them all to go to sleep.
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Matsci
post Nov 2 2008, 07:30 PM
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Mana Static- The Win Button vs anything magic.

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AllTheNothing
post Nov 2 2008, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 2 2008, 06:31 PM) *
Personally I think Mob Control can be exceedingly useful. Not only can it take out a huge group of enemies at once, it then proceeds to add them to your side. The drain can be a bit heavy, but a few boxes of stun can be well worth it in exchange to having half your enemies turn on each other. As an added bonus it isn't a problem if you catch allies in the spell, because you can control the individuals, or give them all a big group command that is along the lines of what your allies would do anyway (Like shoot badguy X)

And of course if you want to go for quick kills, cast this with no allies caught, and give the group command "Place barrel of gun under chin, pull trigger." or something similar.

If you can handle massive levels of drain (Ware and high stats and whatnot) Mob mind can be even more effective because the victims don't take DP penalties to aiding you, and they can't call for help or give warnings or anything.

6s (Before resit) in exchange for taking out an entire regiment of enemies? Sounds like a fair exchange to me. 6s in exchange for gaining an entire regiment of former enemies? Sounds amazing to me.

Edit: Heck, the mob mind spell can also be very useful for a passifist. Cast that on everyone and force them all to go to sleep.



Doesn't Mod Control have a radius of force meters and requires line of sight? It is a wonderfull spell but it should be limited to avoid abuse, street level opponent can fall prey of it easily but more organized opponents (syndacates, cops, corp security, shadowrunners, etc.) will probably have the knowledge and the resources to counter magic or at least make as hard as possible to target them.
Also Mob Control has a DV of (F/2)+2 so (6S-2)*2=8, a magic attribute of 8 is something that rookies renners tend to lack (more likely a DV of 6P) and at the time runners reached that level of power the opposition is likely to be able to counter it. Than it could be that you are hired specificaly to cast that spell, GM can make (nearly) anything possible.
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Karaden
post Nov 2 2008, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (AllTheNothing @ Nov 2 2008, 02:31 PM) *
Doesn't Mod Control have a radius of force meters and requires line of sight? It is a wonderfull spell but it should be limited to avoid abuse, street level opponent can fall prey of it easily but more organized opponents (syndacates, cops, corp security, shadowrunners, etc.) will probably have the knowledge and the resources to counter magic or at least make as hard as possible to target them.
Also Mob Control has a DV of (F/2)+2 so (6S-2)*2=8, a magic attribute of 8 is something that rookies renners tend to lack (more likely a DV of 6P) and at the time runners reached that level of power the opposition is likely to be able to counter it. Than it could be that you are hired specificaly to cast that spell, GM can make (nearly) anything possible.


I think your right about the radius and line of sight. But you have to remember that a couple meters radius is actually a fairly decent sized area. I'm not 100% sure if you need line of sight to the people affected by the 'AOE' or not, but you likely do, which means that the spell requires a bit of work, and you would perhaps want to go with the single target version.

As for the DV... your math makes no sense.. why are you looking at a magic attribute of 8? I could pull this off with an attribute of 4.

Force 4 spell, so (F/2)+2 = (4/2)+2=4s and requires a magic attribute of 4. With a magic attribute of 4 and a main attribute of say 5, that's 9 dice to resist drain, so 2 could be bought and 3 is a safe bet, so 1s damage to control the actions of your target and anyone within 4 meters of him (Which would give a total area of a circle 25ish feet across, which is easily enough to fit most rooms/offices/hallways/not warehouse/not outdoors.

Now if you kick that up to Mob Mind, everything stays the same but you take 2 extra s damage and you don't take penalties equal to willpower if you have the people attack their old allies. Really depends on how good your character is at taking drain. Either way I think the spell is quite useful, the mind version all the more so because it has plenty of non combative options.
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WeaverMount
post Nov 2 2008, 08:17 PM
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I would recommend Search. It's pretty broken actually. Seriously mean it doesn't have any drain, it's an extended test, and it can tell you basically anything you want to know about anything especially things like "Top X spells". Many people seem to think that Search is some kind of initiate power or something something but I promise every one can access it from day 1. It's in the upper right.
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Tarantula
post Nov 2 2008, 08:42 PM
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Your spells mostly suck.
Inc Ref can be nice, but don't rely on it.

Useful spells:
Levitate
Magic Fingers
Clairvoyance
Clairaudiance
Lightning Ball/Soundwave
Stunbolt
Imp Invis
Phys Mask
Influence
Mind Probe
Detect Enemies
Mana Window
Heal
Fashion
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Glyph
post Nov 2 2008, 10:58 PM
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I thought it was a decent list, except for armor (some protection vs. lighting you up like a Christmas tree and drawing fire from everyone). Analyze device is good, but not all that, because you only get the net hits as a bonus, and the defaulting penalty that you get to ignore is a big, whopping one dice. So casting it at Force: 5 and getting 5 hits, to use a computer, for example, you need 4 of those hits to beat its object resistance, so you get a bonus of 1 die, and ignore defaulting penalties. Congratulations, you have the equivalent of a skill of 1. Don't get me wrong, it's a versatile spell, when you really need to be able to work/drive/shut down something, but you're not "out-hacking the hacker", etc.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 3 2008, 12:11 AM
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QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 2 2008, 06:31 PM) *
And of course if you want to go for quick kills, cast this with no allies caught, and give the group command "Place barrel of gun under chin, pull trigger." or something similar.


would that not trigger some kind of resistance test?
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Karaden
post Nov 3 2008, 12:16 AM
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I didn't see any rules of any kind about resistance test for doing suicidal actions. I could have overlooked such a thing though.
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WeaverMount
post Nov 3 2008, 12:25 AM
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Everything you said about analyze device is spot on, and often over looked. However you aren't using it to it's full effect. The best way to use it isn't to make the mage into a 2-bit hacker, it's to have the the mage cast it on the hacker and make them a legendary. The subject of a detection spell is person getting a new sense not the phenomenon being detected. Doing it that way also means that you can cast it high force or use edge for size able bonus and not worry about how to sustain it. The mage can just eat the -2 because someone else if making the roll.
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Earlydawn
post Nov 3 2008, 12:32 AM
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IMO:
Levitate - The uses are obvious, and endless.
Heal - Ditto.
Stunball - So good it's broken.
Lightning Bolt - Good indirect combat spell, with utility against drones, cameras, and some lower-quality maglocks.
Increase Reflexes - Even if you're going for more of a utility mage, this can be excellent in giving a non-combat focused character a fighting chance.
Fireball - Again, a solid combat spell with environmental utility. Can also be fun if your GM plays with relatively realistic morale rules for goons - having a bolt of fire tossed at your head tends to activate the lizard brain pretty quickly.
Armor - Nice to have, not only for use on PCs, but also as the equivalent of "throwing the kevlar" on the VIP during an extraction.
Detect Enemies - Information is power.
Improved Invisibility - 'Nuff said.
Light - Invaluable. The capability to move the light and (presumably) stick it to a location makes it an excellent replacement for a tactical light, or headlamp.

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hobgoblin
post Nov 3 2008, 12:41 AM
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QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 3 2008, 01:16 AM) *
I didn't see any rules of any kind about resistance test for doing suicidal actions. I could have overlooked such a thing though.


it seems they have included one for mental manipulations in general (a extended willpower test each force turns, by using a complex action). and no special provision in the spell itself to trigger a test of the command leads to physical harm to self or someone one care about (older editions had that for similar rules).

funny enough, influence has such a entry in its description.

and nothing in the errata either, nasty...

still, if i was the gm, i would do it as a attack test modified by willpower as defined in the spells text.
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Cthulhudreams
post Nov 3 2008, 01:02 AM
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The best spells are the ones that cannot be replicated by a hacker/rigger or sammie.

So that stupid magic fingers spell is lame because a drone can do that, and fireball is the suck because you can just get a hand grenade.

However heal is all sorts of broken because it works instantly and stacks with first aid

Mana static is the one shot nut punch to any magical threat and is completely insane.

Fix is like heal for things that don't bleed

detect life is a completely ridiculous spell that may as well be called 'have a tri corder and call yourself spock'
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hobgoblin
post Nov 3 2008, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 3 2008, 02:02 AM) *
However heal is all sorts of broken because it works instantly and stacks with first aid

do note the need to sustain it to permanent state. this means that if the mage is knocked out or killed before that time, said damage returns...
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Karaden
post Nov 3 2008, 01:21 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 2 2008, 07:41 PM) *
it seems they have included one for mental manipulations in general (a extended willpower test each force turns, by using a complex action). and no special provision in the spell itself to trigger a test of the command leads to physical harm to self or someone one care about (older editions had that for similar rules).

funny enough, influence has such a entry in its description.

and nothing in the errata either, nasty...

still, if i was the gm, i would do it as a attack test modified by willpower as defined in the spells text.


Well, I suppose it could still be a roll for it, but you'd have to keep in mind they'd get a free bypass on armor, no defense roll, and likely a free shot for increased DV (Gun pointed in mouth will have no armor to go through, the subject can't move out of the way to dodge, and the brain is generally considered fairly.. umm... important. To some people any way)

So yeah, assuming a willpower of 3, agility of 3, and skill of 3... well there is actually a decent chance they'd be able to miss.... is there perhaps a +1 to give it from point blank to give them the ability to buy 1 hit to insure they hit themselves?
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hobgoblin
post Nov 3 2008, 01:30 AM
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heh, i guess it could count as a aimed shot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Karaden
post Nov 3 2008, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Nov 2 2008, 07:32 PM) *
IMO:
Light - Invaluable. The capability to move the light and (presumably) stick it to a location makes it an excellent replacement for a tactical light, or headlamp.


I really can't see Light as being Invaluable. I mean heck some glow sticks or flash lights or a microdrone with a light bulb on it can all easily reproduce it.

As said fireball can be replicated by a grenade easily enough. If you really want fire, make it a Molotov or something similar.

Otherwise I'd say the spells you said are useful, but the stunball and lightning bolt aren't very... utility, though still handy to have around. Suppose it depends on if your going for utility or combat mage. Utility doesn't need to be able to replicate what your sammy can do (ie. combat).
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Ravor
post Nov 3 2008, 02:21 AM
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Remember that a good mage can kill you with her mind but a great mage has the wisdom to use her trusty predator instead.


Seriously though, burn two points of Essence and get your extra IPs from bioware, tricked out cybereyes, and a few other goodies.
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Muspellsheimr
post Nov 3 2008, 02:26 AM
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Increase Body is almost always better than Armor.

My list would be:
Stunbolt
Powerbolt
Increase Reflexes
Increase Attribute *
Heal
Fashion
Levitate
Mana Static

* I use a modified version: +1 Drain, affects any single mental/physical attribute, chosen when cast (Drain modifier is based on Street Magic spell design's -1 Drain: restricted effect. I simply reversed it.)

Other than that, there are quite a few nice & useful spells available, pick as you will based on character concept. The above are the ones I would suggest always taking.
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pbangarth
post Nov 3 2008, 03:52 AM
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Consider Spatial Sense.

Peter
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Cthulhudreams
post Nov 3 2008, 05:10 AM
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http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...amp;hl=phantasm

This thread is really good!
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Earlydawn
post Nov 3 2008, 05:49 AM
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QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 2 2008, 08:36 PM) *
I really can't see Light as being Invaluable. I mean heck some glow sticks or flash lights or a microdrone with a light bulb on it can all easily reproduce it.

As said fireball can be replicated by a grenade easily enough. If you really want fire, make it a Molotov or something similar.

Otherwise I'd say the spells you said are useful, but the stunball and lightning bolt aren't very... utility, though still handy to have around. Suppose it depends on if your going for utility or combat mage. Utility doesn't need to be able to replicate what your sammy can do (ie. combat).
As a runner, it's a pretty easy to get in a situation where you're stripped of your gear (ambush at home, etc), and the ability to actually materialize that glowstick is pretty handy. That's more or less the theme with any mage ability that isn't a straight combat spell - you can replicate it with handy 2070 technology easily enough, and probably get a better result. The capability to generate that effect whenever you'd like without concerns for weight or situational availability is a whole different thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Cthulhudreams
post Nov 3 2008, 05:53 AM
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Sure, but you can only take 8 spells, and frankly

1. Heal
2. Detect Life
3. Physical Mask
4. Fix
5. Mana Static
6. Trid Phantasm
7. Control Thoughts
8. Shape Metal
9. Mind Probe
10. Turn to Goo
11. Improved Reflexes

Which four of those are you going to drop to get teh ability to summon a lightbulb. Heck, I could just do that with Trid Phantasm.
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Drogos
post Nov 3 2008, 12:18 PM
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Influence needs to be on that list because it wins. Same drain as a manabolt and it gets you anything in the short and long term. Need that uard to check something in the broom closet? Need to get an extra bit of nuyen from the Johnson? Need the paranoid corper your extracting to just shut the hell up but you don't want to hurt him? Need the Lone Star cop to let you off with a warning and not arrest your cybered buddy? All this and more can be yours for just 3 little BPs. The only drawback is the noticing spellcasting rules, but even at a low force you can make it stick. Obviously it isn't extremely useful when they have their own magical back up (and if you abuse it, your GM likely will increase the magical backup), but against the mundanes it can get you whatever you need.
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