Best Mage Spells and Why, Finding the bests spells for the Versitile Mage Options

[Fortune]

Seriously, Analyze Device does not work on Foci of any kind.

[Stahlkörper]

Seriously, Analyze Device does not work on Foci of any kind.

Id rather say it is an error in the rulesbook which should be corrected.

[Stahlseele]

heck no, then something like this would work and we'd have something like focuszilla sooner or later . .

[Stahlkörper]

heck no, then something like this would work and we'd have something like focuszilla sooner or later . .

I meant, it is in error that the rules say it does work with any type of gear. Foci and fetishes should be excluded. But they arent. And thats why Analyze Device is so overpowered.

[Wasabi]

What skill or attribute checks are used to use a focus? AFAIK foci don't have an associated test they have bonuses they grant but are not themselves associated with a test. Its as cogent as using Analyze Device to get a bonus to stealth tests on your clothes. Clothes don't have an associated test and neither do foci.

[Stahlseele]

i'd say it's pretty clear why they don't work with foci . .
because ONE FOCUS is seldom a device . . devices usually have more than one moving part . .
really, how hard is it to understand your stick? or your sword? there's no hidden differences like in the barrels of guns, there's no moving parts that affect weight distribution . .
there is nothing THERE to understand . . you understood the magical part, because it is bonded to you and it gives you bonus dice like analize device would with other DEVICES

[Wasabi]

I should amend what I wrote above... Analyze Device should work with weapon foci but not because its a focus... rather, because its a weapon and the weapon usage itself is a test associated with the device.

[Stahlseele]

if the weapon focus is a gun, crossbow or something similar, i could be persuaded . . something sill/simple like a stick or sword? those are both just hunks of material made for whacking people either with the blunt or with the pointy, no device, only things . .

[Neraph]

Analyze Device + Penile Implant....

[Muspellsheimr]

Stahlseele: Analyze Device works just fine with a sword or other weapon. Your argument that it must be complicated is flawed - knowing how something functions is often not related to knowing how to use it.

As already covered, Analyze Device does not work on a focus - the reason being, there is no test to use a focus. You do, or you do not. If there was a test associated with activating a focus, then Analyze Device would work with them, but only for that test.

[Stahlseele]

and i would still say: if it is not a DEVICE no analyze device for you . .

[Muspellsheimr]

Fine by me.

de⋅vice
   /dɪˈvaɪs/ [di-vahys]
–noun
1. a thing made for a particular purpose; an invention or contrivance, esp. a mechanical or electrical one.

A device is not limited to mechanical or electrical operation, just usually refers to such. A device is anything designed for something - aka, a sword is designed for combat, & thus is a device. Disagree? Okay, go read the description of Analyze Device again.

Th is spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and
operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the
sense. Th e caster must gain enough hits on the Spellcasting Test
to beat the item’s Object Resistance (see p. 174). Each net hit
gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device, and
allows the subject to ignore any skill defaulting modifi ers for
using the device while the spell is sustained.

Emphasis mine.

[Stahlseele]

ok, i was thinking of the german word for device, which is gerät . . und du willst mir sicher nicht verklickern wollen, dass ein Schwert ein Gerät ist oder? *g*

[Kingboy]

This spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and
operation of a device or piece of equipment...

This brings up an interesting question(well, to me at least)...I don't see any way that Analyze Device is going to give you extra dice when using a focus, but could it be used to figure out what sort of focus/what power level a focus has for unknown foci? Or is this sort of thing normally handled with an Assensing test?

Mostly curious as my main character right now is a Mystic adept, and they can't astrally percieve by default, so it'd be nice to have a fall back way to identify magical widgets other than hitting up a talismonger all the time, or sounding like one of those other games out there...

[Stahlseele]

that's mostly done by assensing/arcana or . . at least in SR3 there was a Spell of Analize Magic . .

[Glyph]

that's mostly done by assensing/arcana or . . at least in SR3 there was a Spell of Analize Magic . .

The Analyze Magic spell, from Street Magic, is awesome for identifying magical things. It's also good for sorcerers, who would have a severe penalty for using the assensing skill.

[WeaverMount]

Using real world terms a focus is a device for all the reasons Muspellsheimr gave. In game it is not because devices are things with a device rating.

It's moot in this case though. Re-read the spell and,

Th is spell allows the subject to analyze the purpose and
operation of a device or piece of equipment within range of the
sense. Th e caster must gain enough hits on the Spellcasting Test
to beat the item’s Object Resistance (see p. 174). Each net hit
gives the subject a bonus die while operating the device, and
allows the subject to ignore any skill defaulting modifi ers for
using the device while the spell is sustained.

you can see that a "peice of equipment" is a valid target and a focus is unquestionably that.

Also I really don't see why this spell wouldn't work on a focus (not that I'd let it fly at my table). What is the functional differance between looking for something and looking for something with binoculars + Analyze device, vs. Casting a spell and casting a spell with a focus + Analyze device.

The argument that there is no test to activate the focus is bunk. There is no test to activate the binoculars either. At the out side you could (if your GM had a double spinectomy) use AD to boost one piece of equipment for the casting roll, and one for the drain roll.

[Stahlkörper]

Stahlseele: Analyze Device works just fine with a sword or other weapon. Your argument that it must be complicated is flawed - knowing how something functions is often not related to knowing how to use it.

As already covered, Analyze Device does not work on a focus - the reason being, there is no test to use a focus. You do, or you do not. If there was a test associated with activating a focus, then Analyze Device would work with them, but only for that test.

Mh, its not explicitly defined whether you use a focus, fetish or talisman while spellcasting or not. If one cannot do anything other with a focus than activating and deactivating it, theres no way to get extra dices for Spellcasting with Analyze Device. Seems like the most elegant solution.

ok, i was thinking of the german word for device, which is gerät . . und du willst mir sicher nicht verklickern wollen, dass ein Schwert ein Gerät ist oder? *g*

Its just the same in the German version and language.
German Wikipedia: "Der Begriff Gerät, allgemeiner auch Gerätschaft, steht in der deutschen Sprache als Oberbegriff für einen einzelnen räumlich abgegrenzten Gegenstand und/oder eine Gruppe von Gegenständen, mit denen etwas bearbeitet, hergestellt oder bewirkt werden kann."
Shadowrun 4.01D: "Das Subjekt kann den Zweck und die grundlegende Handhabung eines Gerätes oder Ausrüstungsgegenstandes innerhalb der Wahrnehmungsreichweite analysieren."

A sword is a device because it has a specific purpose. And it definitively is equipment.

Want another example? I know that plowshares are no "Elektrogeräte" (electrical devices) but they are "landwirtschaftliche Geräte" (agricultural devices). In game terms: Not every device needs a Device Rating.

[Stahlkörper]

Using real world terms a focus is a device for all the reasons Muspellsheimr gave. In game it is not because devices are things with a device rating.

Uhm, that is a reasonable opinion, too... but I think, its not relevant what is meant by the word "device" in game terms, so lets concentrate on the "piece of equipment".

It's moot in this case though. Re-read the spell and,

you can see that a "peice of equipment" is a valid target and a focus is unquestionably that.

Also I really don't see why this spell wouldn't work on a focus (not that I'd let it fly at my table). What is the functional differance between looking for something and looking for something with binoculars + Analyze device, vs. Casting a spell and casting a spell with a focus + Analyze device.

The argument that there is no test to activate the focus is bunk. There is no test to activate the binoculars either. At the out side you could (if your GM had a double spinectomy) use AD to boost one piece of equipment for the casting roll, and one for the drain roll.

Thats just what I said in my first post. As a solution, we could say that the spell works only on equipment which you use actively. So you could AD binoculars but no combat drugs. The spell wont work on foci if we say that they are used passively. You only have to turn them on (activate them) and theyll do the rest (enhancing your magic).

[WeaverMount]

No having a device rating, at least in theory, is necessary and sufficient to make something a device. A spell as a purposely crafted construct of mana fits the real definition of device, but that doesn't make device by the rules

[Wasabi]

The Analyze Magic spell, from Street Magic, is awesome for identifying magical things. It's also good for sorcerers, who would have a severe penalty for using the assensing skill.

Can't it have a subject who is not the casting mage and then allow THEM to tell what a magical item does?

[Stahlkörper]

This brings up an interesting question(well, to me at least)...I don't see any way that Analyze Device is going to give you extra dice when using a focus, but could it be used to figure out what sort of focus/what power level a focus has for unknown foci? Or is this sort of thing normally handled with an Assensing test?

Imo that would require another spell (or simply an Assensing action). AD only tells you how to use s.t. but not what you can use it for.

Mostly curious as my main character right now is a Mystic adept, and they can't astrally percieve by default, so it'd be nice to have a fall back way to identify magical widgets other than hitting up a talismonger all the time, or sounding like one of those other games out there...

Try Analyze Magic for substituting the Assensing skill if you dont want to buy it.
For percieving astrally check out Astral Clairvoyance which is an astral version of Clairvoyance with all pros and cons (moving visual point but not useable for targeting). You may instead either buy the adept power for percieving astrally or design a new spell, i.e. one which allows you targeting but not moving your point of view.

No having a device rating, at least in theory, is necessary and sufficient to make something a device. A spell as a purposely crafted construct of mana fits the real definition of device, but that doesn't make device by the rules

Maybe, maybe not. Doesnt make any difference imo, because you cant use bonus dices for an already casted spell. If you cast the spell again, it would be an entirely new mana construct. ADing a spell wont help you more than ADing an ashtray.

Can't it have a subject who is not the casting mage and then allow THEM to tell what a magical item does?

It can have another subject than the mage but imo it doesnt reveal what the device does, as stated before.

[Muspellsheimr]

Mh, its not explicitly defined whether you use a focus, fetish or talisman while spellcasting or not. If one cannot do anything other with a focus than activating and deactivating it, theres no way to get extra dices for Spellcasting with Analyze Device. Seems like the most elegant solution.

You do use the focus while casting the spell. The problem is, there is no test to use the focus, only to cast the spell.

Like I said, Analyze Device provides bonus dice on any test to use what you are analyzing. It will not work with spotting things with binoculars, because those provide vision magnification - no test involved. While they enhance your Perception, they are not actually part of it. The same goes for foci.

The key thing is to distinguish between using the object in question to perform an action, or using it to improve another action. Using the spell on a camera will improve the quality of any photographs you may take, but not any Perception tests being made through the camera.

[Stahlkörper]

You do use the focus while casting the spell. The problem is, there is no test to use the focus, only to cast the spell.

Yes, okay, I wrote nonsense. Imo the question should be: Do you use it for the action?

Like I said, Analyze Device provides bonus dice on any test to use what you are analyzing. It will not work with spotting things with binoculars, because those provide vision magnification - no test involved. While they enhance your Perception, they are not actually part of it. The same goes for foci.

The key thing is to distinguish between using the object in question to perform an action, or using it to improve another action. Using the spell on a camera will improve the quality of any photographs you may take, but not any Perception tests being made through the camera.

What about close combat weapons? You do use them to improve your reach and damage, dont you? I dont think its possible to draw a clear line.
Actually most logics neither go well with the game mechanics nor function in rl. In rl the only logic Id recomment to trust in is fuzzy logic - and that wont fit in the SR rules. So we should stick to game terms instead of trying to use real world logics.

[WeaverMount]

The key thing is to distinguish between using the object in question to perform an action, or using it to improve another action. Using the spell on a camera will improve the quality of any photographs you may take, but not any Perception tests being made through the camera.

This is a meaning less distinction invented to support a rules interpretation.

@Stahlkörper, In rl yeah Wittgenstein all the way. In game though you have two choices. Stick to the RAW as litterally as you can and don't even think about making sense, and petition toturi to take you as a disciple. That or take the rules as a suggestion and wing it. Your totally right that trying to apply logic to the rules is sketchy at best.