Can Legwork be done on the Matrix?, The REAL poll. Options

[Malachi]

As Malachi pointed out, there are rules indicating that contacts must charge for information a great deal of the time.

That's great. I quote something from the book and you use it make the opposite point I was trying to make. That's the human brain for you.

What I have said is that legwork is heavily biased towards deckers, often to the point of excluding the other players. No one's said anything to contradict that.

I will say that legwork definitely can be heavily biased towards Hacker/info master characters, but it doesn't have to be. I think I've seen several suggestions over the multiple threads in which we've discussed the topic: rule that some info is not on the public Matrix, reduce the number of rolls they can make per search (the "limited extended test" optional rule), combine searches on similar topics into one roll, use the "buy hits" rule on Data Search test. All of these things are in the powers of the GM to accomplish, without even resorting to what would be considered "house rules."

As GM, during the "execution" part of the run, I can do nothing but through waves of gun bunnies at characters making only the combat monsters effective; I can throw nothing but manifested spirits as opposition, excluding all but the mages; or I can have a target defended by nothing but technological security. None of these situations could really be considered "not-RAW" but they would be "bad GM'ing." Just because the rules allow you (or even suggest to) exclude certain characters doesn't mean that the GM should.

Honestly I think if loyalty would come into play this would be the time to make a call. Loyalty 1-3 is generally just biz and they will sell you up the river if they are handed money or pressured. A loyalty 4-6 will probably give you the information if you asked for free. Well I think it would make loyalty a little more useful as well.

That's how I play it. The well-connection, well-liked Face has a nice array of "free info" at their fingertips.

[Fortune]

Not to mention (again) that the Data Search skill (or an Agent on call) and a decent Browse program are not the sole purview of the Decker. Pretty much anyone can surf the Matrix using Data Search.

[Cain]

That is not what the quoted rule states.

It says a Negotiation test might be necessary, which presumes a transaction of some kind.

Not to mention (again) that the Data Search skill (or an Agent on call) and a decent Browse program are not the sole purview of the Decker. Pretty much anyone can surf the Matrix using Data Search.

True in theory, not so good in practice. Someone without the skill isn't likely to have a commlink powerful enough to handle a high-rating Browse program, let alone have a program rated that high. So, even a good agent won't be able to match a decent decker. The average agent will be Rating 3, Browse 3; an average decker would have Browse 4+, Data Search 4, maybe with a specialization, and Hot Sim +2. 6 dice for the agent vs 12 for the decker.

[Cthulhudreams]

As you can buy a R4 agent out of the box, and browse programs and commlinks are cheap, most guys I've made would have DP 9 (limited by response), average decker is unlikely to be much better at chargen because he's going to have the computer skill group at 4, and any 6 will be in hacking.

But yeah agents suck and (every) use of them breaks the game over their knee.

[Wesley Street]

It says a Negotiation test might be necessary, which presumes a transaction of some kind.

Emphasis mine.

[MaxMahem]

True in theory, not so good in practice. Someone without the skill isn't likely to have a commlink powerful enough to handle a high-rating Browse program, let alone have a program rated that high. So, even a good agent won't be able to match a decent decker. The average agent will be Rating 3, Browse 3; an average decker would have Browse 4+, Data Search 4, maybe with a specialization, and Hot Sim +2. 6 dice for the agent vs 12 for the decker.

It's questionable if you should allow a hot-sim bonus for extended tests such as these, since hot-sim relies upon the users 'hyper-sensitized state' for its bonus, which may not be helpful for a data-search test such as this. Data search is also not a matrix test in the same sense that hacking and cybercombat are.

If you DO decide to allow this bonus, you should defiantly be enforcing the drawback of simsense addiction on the player as well. If he is using hot-sim for something as trivial as data-searching for legwork, addiction is very like to be a problem for the character.

[Cain]

As you can buy a R4 agent out of the box, and browse programs and commlinks are cheap, most guys I've made would have DP 9 (limited by response), average decker is unlikely to be much better at chargen because he's going to have the computer skill group at 4, and any 6 will be in hacking.

Pilot limits Agents in the same way that System does. So, even a Rating 5 program will only work at rating 4 in the hands of a rating 4 agent. That's still only 8 dice vs 12. Decker still wins, hands-down.

It's questionable if you should allow a hot-sim bonus for extended tests such as these, since hot-sim relies upon the users 'hyper-sensitized state' for its bonus, which may not be helpful for a data-search test such as this. Data search is also not a matrix test in the same sense that hacking and cybercombat are.

If you DO decide to allow this bonus, you should defiantly be enforcing the drawback of simsense addiction on the player as well. If he is using hot-sim for something as trivial as data-searching for legwork, addiction is very like to be a problem for the character.

Oddly enough, I've never seen anyone use the addiction test for hot sim, simply because there's no frequency chart on it. It's pretty much an "whenever it feel right" type of deal, and if a player isn't making a huge deal about always using hot sim, odds are that the GM will never notice how often it's being used.

[Fortune]

How does the Hacker win 'hands-down'? At best, the typical Hacker would only have 11 dice out of chargen (13 with specialization), as compared to the non-Hacker's possible 8 dice with an Agent (or possibly even more, as if I recall correctly, Agents can be optimized for a task in a similar vein to Specialization). And that assumes the Hacker has a 6 in Data Search instead of Hacking, which is not too likely. So we are really only looking at one or two dice difference, which isn't that great of a disparity.

[Fuchs]

And once it's past chargen, buy a rating 6 agent, and the rating 6 program, and you've got 12 dice for data search for a few nuyens.

I'd say that hotsim is suitable for time-sensitive data searches - like, looking for a good place to hide while being chased over a highway in the team van.

[Malachi]

Cain, you've mentioned a few times that you didn't think think this Matrix Search "problem" existed in SR3? How did you play it in SR3 so that it wasn't a problem? If anything, it appears to me that SR4 made the Matrix more accessible to all members of the team than in SR3.

[Cain]

How does the Hacker win 'hands-down'? At best, the typical Hacker would only have 11 dice out of chargen (13 with specialization), as compared to the non-Hacker's possible 8 dice with an Agent (or possibly even more, as if I recall correctly, Agents can be optimized for a task in a similar vein to Specialization). And that assumes the Hacker has a 6 in Data Search instead of Hacking, which is not too likely. So we are really only looking at one or two dice difference, which isn't that great of a disparity.

Decker with Data Search 4 + Specialty(+2) + Browse 5 + Hot Sim(+2) = 13 dice.

Rating 4 agent + Rating 4 Browse = 8 dice.

Decker wins, hands down. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Cain, you've mentioned a few times that you didn't think think this Matrix Search "problem" existed in SR3? How did you play it in SR3 so that it wasn't a problem? If anything, it appears to me that SR4 made the Matrix more accessible to all members of the team than in SR3.

Deckers had their own set of problems in SR3, but it was easier for anyone to contribute. All you needed was a cyberterminal and a Computer skill. With the split of Computer into lots of little skills, I see few non-deckers take the skills and equipment to be a decent backup decker. I'll agree that Sr4 made the Matrix more accessible, but it also made it harder to use.

For example:

SR3: Computer Skill 1 + Hacking Pool + No Program = Lots of dice for Data Searching
SR4: Computer Skill 1 + No Program = 0 dice for Data Searching.

[masterofm]

Decker dice vs. Agent dice.

Agent rating 5, browse 5 = ten dice
Decker data search +4 specialties only get you so much but if you want to add 2 dice everything then fine there is a +2, browse +5, hotsim +2 = thirteen dice

Most runners especially if you have a rigger will want a response 6 chip and an agent rating of 6 as well. This generally means the agent will eventually get twelve dice to the deckers thirteen to sixteen dice.

The only difference is that the agent can't use edge the way the decker can (like it really matters though)

It is not the hands down end all be all win.

[Fortune]

I haven't read all of it closely, but doesn't Unwired have rules for optimizing Agents for certain tasks (such as Browse or Analyze)?

[Falconer]

Another thing to keep in mind is does your Agent have purchase authority....

But something you might look into is that information costs money... you may be able to find certain things on the matrix... But your local government might actually make you pay to download that old building plan from it's database if you can't hack it. (gotta make their tax and fee revenue somehow!).

Not all things on the matrix are free.

[MaxMahem]

If you DO decide to allow this bonus, you should defiantly be enforcing the drawback of simsense addiction on the player as well. If he is using hot-sim for something as trivial as data-searching for legwork, addiction is very like to be a problem for the character.

Oddly enough, I've never seen anyone use the addiction test for hot sim, simply because there's no frequency chart on it. It's pretty much an "whenever it feel right" type of deal, and if a player isn't making a huge deal about always using hot sim, odds are that the GM will never notice how often it's being used.

There are two points of issue here.

Firstly, if you are going to ignore the rules as written, then there really isn't much to talk about. But considering that data-search of the entire Matrix takes one minute per test (of which they may be several per extended test). And considering you have quoted a character doing 60 such tests as a part of legwork. This means such a character is spending over an hour (possibly multiple hours depending upon the number of intervals he uses per test) using hot-sim for what is essentially a high tech google search. If this isn't a classic time to introduce some of the penalties for abuse of hot-sim, then I don't know what is.

Secondly you seem to be indicating that hot sim use doesn't become a problem because players conceal its use from the gamemaster. Surely I don't have to point the problem with this statement to you?

In any case I think granting hot-sim bonuses for extended tests of this nature is probably questionable, though I could see a case made for it in some situations.

----

The other point ignored in favor of agents is that they are autonomus. While data-search requires 100% of the users attention. This means a clever player (and mine have done so on occasion) could leave an agent running data search running for topics of interest to them, and stay on top of critical data even when they might be otherwise engaged.

[Cain]

Decker dice vs. Agent dice.

Agent rating 5, browse 5 = ten dice
Decker data search +4 specialties only get you so much but if you want to add 2 dice everything then fine there is a +2, browse +5, hotsim +2 = thirteen dice

The problem is that you can't start with a Rating 5 agent. Due to availability restrictions, the best you can do is Rating 4. Once game begins, you can try to purchase a higher-rated one (expensive) or code one yourself (time consuming). So, neither option is going to be easily attained for a fresh character.

Firstly, if you are going to ignore the rules as written, then there really isn't much to talk about. But considering that data-search of the entire Matrix takes one minute per test (of which they may be several per extended test). And considering you have quoted a character doing 60 such tests as a part of legwork. This means such a character is spending over an hour (possibly multiple hours depending upon the number of intervals he uses per test) using hot-sim for what is essentially a high tech google search. If this isn't a classic time to introduce some of the penalties for abuse of hot-sim, then I don't know what is.

Data Search tests are supposed to take about a combat turn of game time. 60 x 3 sec = 180 sec, or about 3 minutes. The problem is that in the real world, it takes up to several minutes to resolve a Data Search test. If you use the longest interval, it's only 1 minute. So, it takes about an in-game hour to resolve 60 Data Search items, but over an hour and a half to resolve it in real time.

Secondly you seem to be indicating that hot sim use doesn't become a problem because players conceal its use from the gamemaster. Surely I don't have to point the problem with this statement to you?

The issue isn't concealment, the issue is communication. Unless the player explicitly says "I'm using Hot Sim" each and every time, the GM isn't going to notice. Two more dice in a fistful of them isn't going to stand out. You could make the decker count out his dice each and every time, but that's time-consuming, and distrustful of your player. You could continuously ask, but that's also time-consuming. What's more, if the player does communicate his Hot Sim use to the GM clearly, he's going to be punished for it more than the guy who simply doesn't mention it as often.

On top of that, there's no interval for Addiction tests. They occur more or less at the GM's whim. Which means, if the player isn't making a big deal about it, a Gm could easily forget.

The other point ignored in favor of agents is that they are autonomus. While data-search requires 100% of the users attention. This means a clever player (and mine have done so on occasion) could leave an agent running data search running for topics of interest to them, and stay on top of critical data even when they might be otherwise engaged.

Agents are autonomous, but they're also not nearly as good as an average decker. If the Data Search is important, or if it doesn't take up much time (like, say, a minute) then it's better for the decker to do it. Especially if the data is critical.

Also, if it's time-sensitive, the decker has a huge speed advantage. With 13 dice, he will average 4.33 successes. Since the threshold for Easy information is 4, the decker is likely to nail it every time. The agent, with only 8 dice, will average 2.66 successes; not enough to hit even the easiest threshold, even if we round up. It'll need to take a second interval, taking twice as long.

[Malachi]

Data Search tests are supposed to take about a combat turn of game time. 60 x 3 sec = 180 sec, or about 3 minutes. The problem is that in the real world, it takes up to several minutes to resolve a Data Search test. If you use the longest interval, it's only 1 minute. So, it takes about an in-game hour to resolve 60 Data Search items, but over an hour and a half to resolve it in real time.

The interval is based on the "area" of the search.

SEARCH TABLE
Threshold - Difficulty
2 - Easy
4 - Average
8 - Hard
16 - Extreme

Interval - Search Area
1 Initiative Pass - Same device
1 Combat Turn - Same network
1 Minute - Entire Matrix

I don't know how other people do it, but I make my players choose the area of search before they begin. If they decide they want to widen the area of the search, then I make them start over with a new interval.

[Cain]

The point is that Data Searching is, in-game, the fastest and easiest way to get a lot of information in a hurry. You can get all your legwork done in an hour or less.

[masterofm]

Agent rating on availability is rating x3. You can get a rating 5 agent because it does not go over availability 16.

[Malachi]

The point is that Data Searching is, in-game, the fastest and easiest way to get a lot of information in a hurry. You can get all your legwork done in an hour or less.

Ironic that you are saying that Data Search is the fastest way to get Legwork done in game-time, but you are also complaining that it takes up too much real-time in the session. Huh. You still haven't answered my question about how this wasn't a problem in SR3.

Agent rating on availability is rating x3. You can get a rating 5 agent because it does not go over availability 16.

Availability 16 must be a house rule. By RAW the limit is supposed to be 12.

All gear is subject to gamemaster approval—just because
you can purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed
to get it at the start of the game. Finally, no piece of gear
purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than
6 or an Availability higher than 12 (for more information, see
Availability & Buying Gear, p. 301).

[MaxMahem]

The problem is that you can't start with a Rating 5 agent. Due to availability restrictions, the best you can do is Rating 4. Once game begins, you can try to purchase a higher-rated one (expensive) or code one yourself (time consuming). So, neither option is going to be easily attained for a fresh character.

As others have pointed out, your assumptions are highly questionable as well. Using hot-sim for routine data-search legwork? An applicable specilisation in the kind of data-search you are doing? Both highly questionable. And without them a deckers advantage in this kind of test is minimal.

Data Search tests are supposed to take about a combat turn of game time. 60 x 3 sec = 180 sec, or about 3 minutes. The problem is that in the real world, it takes up to several minutes to resolve a Data Search test. If you use the longest interval, it's only 1 minute. So, it takes about an in-game hour to resolve 60 Data Search items, but over an hour and a half to resolve it in real time.

As Malachai pointed out, the interval is based upon the 'area' of the search. In the case of the entire matrix (which is what would be applicable for the kind of leg-work we are discussing), the player in your game is spending over an hour on his absurd number of questions. Possibly as many as 4 hours if he goes for 4 intervals, or even longer if he goes for more (generally capped at his dicepool, so as many as 8 or so for most reasonable pools). Spending this amount if time in hot-sim doing basically an enhanced google search should definitely bring up the issue of addiction. Which is why, of course, most characters wouldn't use hot-sim (which is dangerous and addictive) for such a mundane task.

Though of course no one in their right mind should be making 60 legwork tests, so the example is rather extreme. But if this kind of junk is happening in your games the downsides of it should defiantly be brought into play as well.

The issue isn't concealment, the issue is communication. Unless the player explicitly says "I'm using Hot Sim" each and every time, the GM isn't going to notice. Two more dice in a fistful of them isn't going to stand out. You could make the decker count out his dice each and every time, but that's time-consuming, and distrustful of your player. You could continuously ask, but that's also time-consuming. What's more, if the player does communicate his Hot Sim use to the GM clearly, he's going to be punished for it more than the guy who simply doesn't mention it as often.

On top of that, there's no interval for Addiction tests. They occur more or less at the GM's whim. Which means, if the player isn't making a big deal about it, a Gm could easily forget.

The rules explicitly state that hot-sim is dangerous and addictive. You can literally fry your brain with it. If this isn't an important consideration that needs to be brought to the GM's attention, each and every time it is used, then I don't know what is. I mean it's not like saying "I'm going to use hot-sim" takes up a lot of time in the real world. You would certainly object if the players decided to start taking cram or some other dangerous and addictive substance and conveniently forgot to mention its use to the GM.

As for it being left up the GM, this is probably as it should be. Most of the time the other main drawback of hot-sim (the potential to bleed your brain out through your nose) is enough to balance it. However if a character is using and abusing this fundamentally dangerous tool for such mundane tasks, then the GM is certainly within his rights to bring up the specter of addiction. In fact it seems to be almost a text book case for it.

Agents are autonomous, but they're also not nearly as good as an average decker. If the Data Search is important, or if it doesn't take up much time (like, say, a minute) then it's better for the decker to do it. Especially if the data is critical.

My point was with an agent any character can have an autonums bot that feeds him information constantly. Unless your decker is doing matrix-searches 24/7 he cannot match this availability. He won't be able to get up-to-the-minute news because he can only get that data when he takes the time out of his busy schedule to look for it. Heck he won't even know its out there till he makes a test.

Being that the character is a shadowrunner, there might occur times when vital information comes up but the character is to busy doing other more important things (like avoiding being shot). An example of this that came up in my game was a players agent letting them know that there getaway chase with Lone-Star just broke on to the 6 o'clock news. An important pecie of data they which they were a bit to busy to search for at the moment.

[Fortune]

The point is that Data Searching is, in-game, the fastest and easiest way to get a lot of information in a hurry. You can get all your legwork done in an hour or less.

This is where I have a problem. I am of the opinion that not everything (not even close) is available on the Matrix to a simple Data Search. Therefore, although it may be a fast way to get some information, it will not suffice for all your Legwork needs.

[Fortune]

Availability 16 must be a house rule. By RAW the limit is supposed to be 12.

I believe that there is an Edge that allows one to bypass that limitation.

[Cain]

Ironic that you are saying that Data Search is the fastest way to get Legwork done in game-time, but you are also complaining that it takes up too much real-time in the session. Huh. You still haven't answered my question about how this wasn't a problem in SR3.

I did. Data Searching as a specific skill didn't exist in SR3. It was folded into the Computer skill, which just about everyone had. With the Computer skill and a cheap cyberterminal, anyone could handle a basic matrix search. You didn't even need a Browse program, since all Browse did was locate paydata.

I believe that there is an Edge that allows one to bypass that limitation.

There is, but wasting it on an agent seems foolish. Better to use it on a rating 6 Response chip.

As Malachai pointed out, the interval is based upon the 'area' of the search. In the case of the entire matrix (which is what would be applicable for the kind of leg-work we are discussing), the player in your game is spending over an hour on his absurd number of questions.

Compared to a Contact test, that's lightning-fast. The interval for a contact test is 1 hour. In that same amount of time, a decker can easily run 60 tests, even if they take more than 1 interval; odds are that the contact will need more than 1 interval as well. So, it could take you several hours to get info on one subject, or one hour to get info on lots of subjects. That, of course, presumes that the decker is searching the entire matrix, and not a dedicated network such as Shadowland. That would be even faster, being able to complete 2000 tests before the contact could even find anything.

The rules explicitly state that hot-sim is dangerous and addictive. You can literally fry your brain with it. If this isn't an important consideration that needs to be brought to the GM's attention, each and every time it is used, then I don't know what is. I mean it's not like saying "I'm going to use hot-sim" takes up a lot of time in the real world. You would certainly object if the players decided to start taking cram or some other dangerous and addictive substance and conveniently forgot to mention its use to the GM.

As for it being left up the GM, this is probably as it should be. Most of the time the other main drawback of hot-sim (the potential to bleed your brain out through your nose) is enough to balance it. However if a character is using and abusing this fundamentally dangerous tool for such mundane tasks, then the GM is certainly within his rights to bring up the specter of addiction. In fact it seems to be almost a text book case for it.

Do you ask you players, each and every time, if they're using Hot Sim? Do they explicitly tell you each and every time what sim level they're using?

At any event, if players are using hot sim to carefully probe a target, then spending an hour or less doing a hot sim data search isn't such a big deal.

My point was with an agent any character can have an autonums bot that feeds him information constantly. Unless your decker is doing matrix-searches 24/7 he cannot match this availability. He won't be able to get up-to-the-minute news because he can only get that data when he takes the time out of his busy schedule to look for it. Heck he won't even know its out there till he makes a test.

Sending a bot out requires taking up a subscription slot, possibly a program slot, and takes an action to communicate with. Agents also don't know what information to go after unless you tell them, and as established, they're significantly weaker at it than a good decker. While it's sometimes a good idea to have an agent in a well-placed node, reporting back to you as needed; a constant stream of agents telling you everything that moved is not practical.

[MaxMahem]

I did. Data Searching as a specific skill didn't exist in SR3. It was folded into the Computer skill, which just about everyone had. With the Computer skill and a cheap cyberterminal, anyone could handle a basic matrix search. You didn't even need a Browse program, since all Browse did was locate paydata.

Your objections to the changes ring hollow. First off, a data-search test in SR3 was handled by Etiquette(Matrix), not computer skill. It took 2d6 hours of continuous search time, and you could not add your hacking pool to this test. So basically everything you said about how data-search was handled in SR3 is wrong. Well I guess you didn't need a program, which costs all of what 400Y for a rating 4 program? A big expense there. So as others have been saying, if anything data-search is a much more accessible option to other characters in SR4. Indeed, my impression from reading the two rule sets is that while in SR3 data-search is intended primarily for hackers, in SR4 it is meant for more general application.

In addition, the ambiguous wording in SR3 could lead a foolish GM to put all legwork data up on the matrix if he was so inclined. "Virtually any information can be found in the Matrix, if the character knows where to look and has the time." Of course a rational person would still be able to read that sentence and determine that no, not EVERYTHING can be found on the matrix, but then again, that doesn't appear to be your mindset when you looked at the SR4 rules.

Compared to a Contact test, that's lightning-fast. The interval for a contact test is 1 hour. In that same amount of time, a decker can easily run 60 tests, even if they take more than 1 interval; odds are that the contact will need more than 1 interval as well. So, it could take you several hours to get info on one subject, or one hour to get info on lots of subjects. That, of course, presumes that the decker is searching the entire matrix, and not a dedicated network such as Shadowland. That would be even faster, being able to complete 2000 tests before the contact could even find anything.

Quite an assumption to assume that a player can narrow down his information to residing on a specific network. Even more so a players access to such network is completely at the GM's discretion. Access could be given out freely, treated as an asset the player had to purchase with karma/nuyen, or even like a contact.

But this entirely misses my point. Which wasn't so much about the speed of data-search itself (which is rather fast). But the amount of time you seem to have characters casually using a dangerous and addictive substance (Hot Sim).

Do you ask you players, each and every time, if they're using Hot Sim? Do they explicitly tell you each and every time what sim level they're using?

At any event, if players are using hot sim to carefully probe a target, then spending an hour or less doing a hot sim data search isn't such a big deal.

I don't have to ask them, they explicitly tell me in the first place. Is that so strange? The same way they would tell me before using cram or some other drugs to boost their stats. In fact we have a habit at my table of rattling off our dice-pools and where we get them from as we roll them, but even if we didn't, I would still expect to know, each and every time, a character started using hot-sim. It is after all a dangerous and addictive.

This includes if a player is using it when probing a target. And yes I would consider dragging out the specter of addiction then as well. Probing is designed to be a slow, careful analysis of a system looking for weaknesses. It's another situation where granting a bonus for hot-sim is questionable, but if you did decided to grant it, bring in worries about sim addiction would certainly be applicable as well.

Sending a bot out requires taking up a subscription slot, possibly a program slot, and takes an action to communicate with. Agents also don't know what information to go after unless you tell them, and as established, they're significantly weaker at it than a good decker. While it's sometimes a good idea to have an agent in a well-placed node, reporting back to you as needed; a constant stream of agents telling you everything that moved is not practical.

Agents have some intelligence, depending upon their rating, so one could expect them to provide some filtering. But in any case it only takes an action to issue them a command, there is no action necessary to receive an alert or something of that nature. Observing their data in detail might be an action, if necessary, but just getting a message from the certainly is not.