Elves are how old?, Time measures in the 6th world Options

[Maxxi]

I must be missing something.

How is it possible for people to know how long the lifespan of an Elf or a Dwarf is in Shadowrun, and for that matter how can you know the same for an Ork or Troll. The latest Shadowrun date puts it in the mid 2060s, with the awakening being 50 years prior. That means that a few of the Original Orks and Trolls have started to die out right? I can understand that being used as a measure of Lifespan, but what about Elves and Dwarves, how can anyone know an Elf will live a few centuries, or a Dwarf will live well over 100?

For that matter, Dunkelzahn (sp?) mentions in his will that the first person to find dragon bones will be rewarded. Between the last awakening and 2060 no one found any of those dragon bones? Or did the stuff suddenly all resurface?

The same applies to Occult, how did so much Occult knowledge suddenly become useful. Did all the books just resurface, and for that matter why all the tradition if they didn't? Magic would have arisen in modern times!

If anyone can answer, It'd be appreciated.

[Fresno Bob]

Well, Orks only live to be about 40, and Goblinization only happened a little later than the awakening. As for Elves, I don't know.

[Tanka]

The average Ork that hasn't died prior to now is probably just starting to die off ('21-'61), and the average Troll is getting elderly.

Dwarves are probably middle-aged by now, and Elves may just still be youngins.

[Big Crow]

There are some people that know for certain the average life expectancies of various metas; those people being ancient elves, dragons, and spirits.
Other than that, you could say no one else really knows.
If you are interested, kindly turn to the Tir Tairngire source book, pg 145-149, and you shall find a wonderful debate on the subject of lifespans.

[GoldenAri]

Doesn't it say in the 2nd edition rule book that it's based on metabolic studies?

[Cain]

Unfortunately, the old Tir Tairngire sourcebook is rather hard to come by.

To answer the original question, though: In the SR1 rulebook, the claim was made based on "metabolic studies". Then, the Tir Tairngire book goes into more detail on the mysteries of the elven lifespan.

As far as the dragon bones go, there's no telling if some of the dinosaur bones we've found are actually dragon bones. A large lizard skeleton with an apparent aging disparity could be misclassified as a dinosaur.

As far as magic goes, we already know a great deal about the occult nowadays. After the Awakening, it all started to work. The catch was, the same methods didn't work for everyone, which is why it's magic. There wasn't a huge increase in occult knowledge.

[spotlite]

I beleive it was 'metabolic testing has shown...' was the answer in 2nd ed. Tests have been carried out on a genetic level of subjects, using presumably methods advanced from today, which predict the average lifespans to fall within x period. If you accept the whole immortal Elf thing, that's why they can only say that for Elves lifespan is indeterminate, 'possibly' several hundred years. Basically they haven't found the 'death' gene sequence thats in other species and metatypes, or that maybe they only found it in non-awakened subjects etc. Whatever. I can't think of a canon place for it - maybe M&M?

I'd just take it as read that it's predicted from scientific tests of some kind, and that elves are 'special' for some reason. Draw your own conclusions. Maybe its all a big conspiracy..?

I do know that by 2060 an entire generation of Orks has been born, grown old and died (and some trolls as well. If not killed by other causes, the ones that are alive I presume would be exhibiting signs of aging, which would provide a comparison with humans, orks and other metas), with the exception of some from the first wave of UGE who used to be human pre-current mana levels. SOME of these Orks and Trolls have lived normal human lifespans, though they are still mostly elderly by 2060. Other Orks/Trolls who have expressed at puberty since the awakening, iirc, have lived the same lifespans as born-metas. Its a mana thing, I guess.

But there is certainly enough evidence to give an average for a troll or ork. Whether you accept they can predict it for dwarfs and elves is up to you, I suppose, if you don't like the idea of tests being able to predict how long a person is likely to live.

EDIT: three posts before I'd finished writing mine! Half of what I said has already been gone over so - what they said! END EDIT

[Squire]

Easy, they just ask Ehran the Scribe and he told them.

Okay, seriously, I'm going to go with the biological testing that can presumably give an estimate on life-span.

[spotlite]

As far as the magic stuff goes, that's easy (in my opinion) - its a question of beleif. Its all about how you perceive magic working. If you fervently beleived that your crystals and watnot worked when the Awakening started, and you were magically active, then suddenly you found that the spells which your books told you to meditate on for hours at a time worked in a few seconds. Lo and behold, you are now a follower of a school of magic. If you are from a more open minded background, you start to investigate other writings and practices and assuming you are attuned enough (the spiritual ways of the totem may simply be incomprehensible), you might actually find you are a full hermetic mage.

Through the years, ancient texts which previously were thought to be superstition and myth actually turn out to possess magical formulas and wardings, summoning rituals, enchanting methods etc etc. This seeps out to the public domain and spreads. New techniques are developed where old methods are not available or unknown, the 'technology' of magic advances.

All of this sort of thing is covered really in the fiction sections and Shadowtalk so carries the usual disclaimers, etc.

[John Campbell]

Lifespans for elves and dwarves are guesses based on observation of aging rates and comparison to a known baseline (humans). It's entirely possible that they're wildly off because of factors as yet undetermined... especially the elves, none of whom should be past young adulthood yet.

Ork and troll lifespans are more problematic than they first appear, because goblinized orks and trolls apparently have normal human lifespans (I think this is canon, but I don't remember where it's from), so it's only the very first of the natural-born orks that should be reaching the end of their natural lifespans (especially if you assume, as I do, that the ridiculously low averages given include, like the human one must, deaths due to violence, illness, infant mortality, etc., which are going to have a disproportionate effect on them because of socioeconomic factors). It's the same answer, though... comparison of the apparent aging rates with the known baseline humans provide.

Dunkie or other sources might have revealed some Fourth World spoilers, too... though I have to wonder what he actually said in his famous early-Awakening broadcast where he allegedly told the world what to expect, because it seems that every major development since has been unexpected.

As for occult knowledge, it may have existed in modern times, but it wasn't useful until the mana level got high enough to actually do something with it. Until 2011-ish, knowing how to cast a spell was like knowing how to fire a gun, but not having any ammo.

--
Dalassa(GM): "A middle and an teenage elf get out and start walking toward the helicopter."
Sven: "How do you tell the difference between a middle-aged elf and a teenage elf, anyway?"
Dalassa(GM): "Piercings."

[Cain]

[mfb]

i think the answer to that is in the Secrets of Power trilogy--Never Trust an Elf, i think? the one with Kham, at any rate. in the first few chapters, Kham runs of on a train of thought about how orks age quickly, and i believe he mentions one ork who's lived for much longer than most orks do because he goblinized, rather than being born naturally.

someone who's got that book can look up the specifics. someone who's got their game books with them might also check SR3; i'll look tonight, when i get home.

[sidekick]

I can't remember where I read this, but I recall reading something that said the estimated Life Spans for Trolls and Orcs was based off the fact that anyone at any age could goblinize, so we got 30-50 year Orcs and Trolls popping up, and then dying not too long after. But the catch to that was that it seemed naturally born Orcs and Trolls were living longer then the ones that goblinized (most would be hitting their late 30s/early 40s right now). I can't give you a page or book on that fact, but I seem to recall it.

[Ancient History]

Sorry Cain and Sidekick, but as mfb and John Campbell pointed out those who Goblinize into orks (and presumably trolls too) have a regular human lifespan (taking in to account living conditions, psychological trauma and environmnet, this might not mean a great deal).

I would like to mention that just because the average ork or troll doesn't live as long as your average human or dwarf, there was a case in ED (where the chanes of goblinized humans is somewhat small) of an ork living to be over a hundred years old.

[Jari_Kafghan]

Are you talking about the ork Thief AH?

[GoldenAri]

Yep, and if I remember correctly his secert was being too stubborn to die.

[Dingus_McGee]

Also, take into account how many trolls/orks are killed by riots/illegal activity/etc. and since they are probably middle-age (by human standards), that's going to affect the average by a wide margin.....

[FlakJacket]

[northern lights]

i don't know what the secret was with old garlthik one eye, but there was quite a bit of speculation that it wasn't natural means keeping him around that long.

between he and all his cronies in kratas, there was probably something in his horde that was able to sustain life a bit longer than normal.

[wienerwürstchen]

I think it's an relict of the first / secomd edition and the earthdawn backround - all metahumans should die at the same age ( perhaps except the dozen immortal elves ) :grinbig:

[Tanka]