Character Depth without the Angst/Emo Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[sunnyside]

I think I blame many modern writers. I've recently started GMing for some younger Gamers (high schoolers) and they seem to default to angst/emo stuff for character depth.

Of course there are lots of other ways to add character depth. In Shadowrun a healthy relationship or good trait is odd enough to add some surprising depth. There are plenty of ways to be disfunctional and there is always the more hardboiled self loathing that you cope with using a stiff jaw and scotch. Or having something to be passionate about. Living style over substance. And so on.

The question is how to "sell" that to players and get them to do it well, especially "kids" who only know hardboiled as it pertains to eggs, haven't read anything cyberpunk yet, but have read some Drek called "Twighlight" .

(As a side note I think some also try to use being antisocial, a loner, or psychopathic for character depth, but really these are just standard 2D trenchcoater fare.)

[Cain]

That's probably due to the age of your players. There's a reason why the angsty teen stereotype manages to endure.

You have a unique opportunity here. You have the chance to teach these kids how to roleplay. I suggest you approach it like teaching them how to act. Have them start with one or two defining characteristics of their character, and revolve everything else around that. Show them how to take a piece of themselves, and exaggerate it, to create a different character. If you know it, try teaching them Method acting.

[sunnyside]

For their age they aren't bad at roleplaying. That isn't the issue. It's that what the choose to roleplay revolves around angst/emo and all to similar themes.

Hence why part of my question is how to "sell" other styles/personalities.

The other key part being how to get them to do something else well instead of it falling flat (I suppose something like Method might help there).

[Fuchs]

Check some TV and anime series, and see if you find some non-emo characters they might like.

Possible non-emo role models for Shadowrunners:

City Hunter:
Ryo Saeba
Umibozu

Angel Heart:
Glass Heart

Full Metal Panic:
Sousuke Sagara
Kurtz
Sergeant Major Mao

[Wesley Street]

Have them read William S. Burroughs or watch modern film noir movies like Memento or Salton Sea. There's tons of countercultural material out there for the budding (post)cyberpunk fan. If you want to keep kids from playing stereotypical characters you need to pull them away from the Blade Runner and Matrix-esque stuff.

[TheOOB]

The funny thing is that people often times use angst and emo characters as a way to avoid role playing, whether or not they know it. Tell me whats easier, making a good, believable back story and personality for your character, and thinking about how they would react to each situation based on previous experience, or coming up with some generic story about loss and angst and having the character react the same way to everything?

As mentioned above, suggest that they base their characters on a character they like. I've based characters off of Firefly, Ghost in the Shell, Outlaw Star, Cowboy Bebop, Indiana Jones, even X-Files. While they still need to work to make their character unique, having a good archtype to base yourself off of helps the process.

[Wounded Ronin]

Make them make Golgo 13 ripoffs.

[Stahlseele]

asshole characters.
seriously, the way to go O.o
nothing bad happening in the past, just growing up and having been born with a mean streak.
just be mean for the hell of it. have fun being mean. don't whine about all the world being bad.
don't be mean because you want your revenge against some wrong that happened to you . . .
tragical background sadly is the easiest to write somehow.
'cause revenge is as good a reason to go into the shadows as anything else . .
but try to come up with a background for some jolly good old nice fella with a good sense of humor and nothing really bad happening to him being in the shadows . .
not born poor having to endure some hardships, never knew anything else . . just happy go lucky character that is an active shadowrunner . . if you can come up with
such a backgroundstory, i am SO stealing it . .

[WeaverMount]

>or coming up with some generic story about loss and angst

This is a good point. To that end the characters have to have something that they care about. New players don't want to write that into there characters for couple reasons. Caring makes you vulnerable, and that doesn't jibe with the power fantasy. So you do a little judo and make get them to justify there numbers. Feng Shui of all sources gave me a great bit of advice on getting past that. Point out that it is imposable to get and maintain world class skills in a vacuum. Make them roll up the the gang where they learned there fighting skills and the Prime Runner Evil Sith mentor prime runner who trained them from in there two 5 or a 6 and then fell out some how. Then get the player to round out the community the character uses to maintain the skill and you get both a source of friends plausible contacts, and something they care able with out feeling saddled with a permanent umbrella mission like a kid sister or something.

Second witting up friends, families, ex's, passions, and betrayals takes a knowledge of the setting green RPers don't have. A pinky/Trog Romio and Juliet angle would make for some great Shadow Run, but no noob is going to write that up without help because they don't know there is a lot to mine there. Give there age and experience your players are likely a little afraid of looking dumb by writing up elements that not compatible with cannon, or are just irrelevant.

Lastly, and this is more general advice, people do the best they know at everything they care about. If you want your players to RP better look for what is stopping them from RPing better and remove it.

[Zombayz]

I've never had this problem, but then again, my players are oddballs, as am I. And even the emo kid doesn't make emo characters

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Try telling them to model character's after a personality they would like to play in a team setting rather than focusing on a backstory. Sometimes a personality and chemistry fulfilling a certain outlook or counter outlook in a team setting is really useful. Get the player who models his hacker after Tommy Chong who instead of being blown out of his mind from pot, is an aging hippy who lost some brain cells from BTLs "back in the day." Get a player to a dumb "Kung Fool" expert who is so dumb he pipes up and says ridiculous things that everybody knows they could never ever do or listen to, but they keep the dude around because he is handy in a pinch. Have them watch a lot of stereotypical action movies and make them fulfill roles from one of those. Hell, whenever someone new starts in our group, we always like them to model their character's personality after some actor or character they can emulate.

[krayola red]

Bah, back when I was that age, half of my characters were orphans whose parents got killed in some gruesome manner or another. The other half were superpowered genetic experiments who never had parents in the first place. You tend to grow out of it after awhile. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyway, as a GM, you can always introduce them to some cool NPCs who aren't all angsty and emo, just to show them that it's possible to be an interesting person without harboring a burning hatred for all of existence. Playing up on relationships between characters is a good way to show them that a PC without any attachments is, quite frankly, kinda boring to play.

[Mickle5125]

but try to come up with a background for some jolly good old nice fella with a good sense of humor and nothing really bad happening to him being in the shadows . .
not born poor having to endure some hardships, never knew anything else . . just happy go lucky character that is an active shadowrunner . . if you can come up with
such a backgroundstory, i am SO stealing it . .

My elf gun-bunny, Kerrigan, is a hyperactive goth who's only running in the shadows because it's something to do. She was trained in her magic to be a bodyguard, but was told to go off to gain some real world experience before she'll be allowed to be a full partner.

[TheOOB]

I actually usually run new players through a game of 7th Sea before I send them through another game system like D&D, nWoD, or of course, Shadowrun(yes I play a lot of game systems). The system has a number of mechanics in it to encourage good role playing. First there is the drama dice system, which encourages players to stick their neck out and do crazy awesome things. There is also a backround system in which you create various bad things about your character(old rivals, lost loves, hidden identities, weaknesses, bad guys who want you dead, people you want to kill, and so on) and you gain extra XP when they become part of a plot.

I've done similar things in shadowrun, rewarding good roleplaying by refreshing an edge or two(though what kind of role playing I reward differs in shadowrun then from a system based on 17th century pirate action drama), and rewarding an extra karma or two in a run focuses on a character and their background. So if you build a runner with a little sister dependent, sure that's a weakness, but when it comes time to save her, you might come out a little stronger for it. It's enough to encourage role playing, without making people who are bad at role playing feel punished.

[crash2029]

One of my favorite characters, Car, is a well-adjusted, good spirited guy who runs the shadows because he wants to. When he was growing up in the Baltimore suburbs, in an upper middle class family, he and his sister really loved watching old flatvids. He got it into his head to be James Bond. Therefore he worked extra jobs, studied hard, and used his savings and college fund to fund training and minor augmentation in order to become a shadowrunner. When he thought he was ready he moved to Seattle and did his best to infiltrate the 'runner scene. He succeeded. Of course, he discovered that it's not all fun and excitement, but he stuck with it. Eventually after living through Survival of the Fittest he retired from shadowrunning and went into fixing. Today he is a major fixer with international connections and works with the best the shadows have to offer.

So there, Stahlseele, I already had a nice guy with a nice background, a good sense of humor and a strong moral code who ended up in the shadows. Although many would point out that someone with those resources seeking out a life of danger and pain have a few screws loose, I would have to agree. He does have a few screws loose. I would contend that anyone wanting to be a career soldier in the Special Forces similarly has a few screws loose. After all, it takes all kinds.

[TheOOB]

It should be noted, that while overly angsty/emo characters are annoying, that doesn't mean that all characters with a tragic past are bad character designs. The fact is, if you are living the UCAS dream, you most likely are not going to take to the shadows. Unless you are some rich corp kid who wants to find some excitement, something beyond your control probably put you in the shadows. The character who's family was killed by a Red Samurai raid, the rich entrepreneur who lost it all in the crash, a sprawl ganger who lost their arm in a gang war, when all his buddies lost their life. These are all promising character backstories all of which would be profoundly affected by the tragedy in their lives. The key thing is that they have lives though, they do more then just brood about their crappy past, they have likes and dislikes, goals and fears, they look to the future as well as the past, whether it's just to get enough money for that wiz new cybergun, or to finally find homes for all the orphened children they had been supporting by running.

I could write an entire essay on making good character concepts(and I might someday), they key thing to remember is that no good character is every built with one dimension, just like real people, good characters have many dimensions, and they don't always make perfect sense.

[Blade]

Exactly. The problem with emo character is not that they have a tragic past or that they aren't happy or even that they listen to The Cure. The problem is that it's their only characteristic.

It's the same problem with cybered killing machines and mysterious mages: you can't be a killing machine or a mysterious guy all the time. My rule of thumb: if you can't imagine your character going to the laundromat or the stuffer shack, then he's lacking depth.

[sunnyside]

My rule of thumb: if you can't imagine your character going to the laundromat or the stuffer shack, then he's lacking depth.

I like that. Punchy.

To the people advocating relationships. I actually do that. The romantic interest is probably at this point my default thing to develop a bad roleplayer. The problem here being that their emo/angst books/whatever feature lots of relationships and all too often the relationship is used as an angst soundboard.

Also if I haven't said it I do forum games and this one has to stay PG/PG-13 tops. Which limits me more than I expected...


Thanks for a number of the resources/shows mentioned.

Also I generally agree with TheOOB. Most runners have a screw loose or some major issue, possibly a troubled past of some kind. But even James Bond had the classic orphan background and you don't get much less emo than Bond. But the same deal for a lot of contemporary characters.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

I always try to make my players give me (as GM) something to work with and exercise their past and current relationships. Give me a reason you have those skills, and while you're at it, give me a couple contacts that you knew from that part of your life. In fact, give me at least one contact from all the different jobs you had (exaggerating). I'll make sure for whatever reason your old high school nerd buddy pops up and want's to hang to kill your one dimensional angsty emo mood.

[Aaron]

Somebody should come up with a list of questions one could answer to give their characters more depth. Maybe like twenty of them. =i)

Seriously, though, if the Twenty Questions in whichever edition of Shadowrun you prefer is inadequate to your needs, I suggest taking a look at the Character Quiz in Phage Press's Amber Diceless game. Good stuff there.

[sunnyside]

Somebody should come up with a list of questions one could answer to give their characters more depth. Maybe like twenty of them. =i)

Seriously, though, if the Twenty Questions in whichever edition of Shadowrun you prefer is inadequate to your needs, I suggest taking a look at the Character Quiz in Phage Press's Amber Diceless game. Good stuff there.

Again the problem is in how they'd answer them. Again these people want to have character depth, and try to add it. They just seem to feel that depth=angst.

[TheOOB]

Besides, the questions don't in and of themselves add depth. They help to set up a basic personality and backround but they really don't serve the answer the question "How does my character react to this given situation" if anything they are best to show other people so they understand a bit about your character.

[Heath Robinson]

Direct them to media with better writing? It's not like you're doing this in meatspace, where you could force them to watch something.

[Whipstitch]

A couple of good superstitions and some religion can help define a character pretty quickly. It's the Sixth World, after all; a healthy fear of large black cats isn't entirely unreasonable anymore.

[Fortune]

I don't really see the problem with letting a person play the character they want to play. I mean sure, you might find it less than ideal, or only two-dimensional, but if the player is having fun and getting what they want out of the game, why should you force them to add 'depth' they don't want to add, or become 'more creative' with their characterizations?

In my opinion, it is best to just let the player play the game the way they want to play it. Most players will evolve naturally themselves, especially when exposed to other players who put a lot of 'depth' into their own characters, or even better, a GM who isn't afraid to pour on the characterizations in the social scenes, and plays up the day-to-day life of the PCs. I don't feel that there is a need to 'teach' players to be better role-players, or force them into playing characterizations they don't really feel comfortable with, or aren't ready for themselves.