Upgrading Foci?, Because too much is never enough Options

[TeaTime]

In exchange for some fine nuyen, the mage has offered to do some enchanting for the PhyAd. She’s currently wielding a rating 2 weapon focus sword, and for sentimental reasons, would like to keep the same sword. After thumbing through SR4 Street Magic, I have not come across (or perhaps just missed) any rules for upgrading foci or disenchanting. Do such rules exist? Suggestions?

[Ancient History]

You'll need a new formula, and the ritual will take the same amount of time and materials, but the Karma required to bond it would be the difference between the current Force and the new one.

[TheOOB]

You'll need a new formula, and the ritual will take the same amount of time and materials, but the Karma required to bond it would be the difference between the current Force and the new one.

I like the rule (though I might consider making cost a little extra karma, it should be cheeper to just start off with a good foci then to upgrade it incrementally). Just curious, is this RAW or is it something you made up.

[Ancient History]

Six an one, half dozen of another. If you had taken the thing to a talismonger, the regular upgrade rules would apply - pay the difference in nuyen and karma, get the upgraded focus. If you do it yourself, there isn't much reason not to gain a similar benefit - the requirement for a new formula is fairly standard.

[JoelHalpern]

Six an one, half dozen of another. If you had taken the thing to a talismonger, the regular upgrade rules would apply - pay the difference in nuyen and karma, get the upgraded focus. If you do it yourself, there isn't much reason not to gain a similar benefit - the requirement for a new formula is fairly standard.

?
I obviously missed something in my reading.
Can you give me a pointer to the "regular upgrade rules?"
(I can find the upgrade rules for Ally Spirits. I guess you could call the rules for raising stats and skills the upgrade rules for upgrading one's "self". The cyber / bio rules seem to say that you have to remove the old, pay for the new, and have the new installed. By the book installation is covered in the price, and presumably you can sell your own used gear just like you can fence other stolen stuff. But the cost will end up a lot more than just the difference between the old and new wear. For Foci, I can not find anything at all.)

I presume I have simply managed to be oblivious and miss something useful.
Thanks,
Joel

[Muspellsheimr]

You are not the only one. I have always assumed that by RAW, you could not upgrade foci, & had to replace them (including paying full Bonding costs).

It is something I would personally house-rule against, but I could not find any such upgrading rules in Street Magic or the BBB.

[TheOOB]

You are not the only one. I have always assumed that by RAW, you could not upgrade foci, & had to replace them (including paying full Bonding costs).

At the very least though a GM should let the player use the old foci as a base for the new foci, so you can still keep your family ancestral sword and such.

For upgrading, I think I would allow the old focus to allow half of it's value in money and karma to be transferred to the new focus, but only under the provision that the person who has the focus re-enchants it themself(someone else could make the new forumla if they felt the need, or you could go on a metaplaner quest for it). Alternatively they could go on a metaplaner quest to awaken the true spirit of the focus and upgrade it(but the spirit would require compensation equal to at least the difference in cost, and would take the karma gained from the quest as well, so not exact ally free but no enchanting needed). This is just what I'd do, not RAW in any fashion.

[Cold-Dragon]

*wipes off dust from self* Hmm...

A thought I was working on was that karma dedicated to foci served a similar hole that spent essence did with cyberware. If you remove the cyberware, and don't get that essence back, something that fits in that slot can replace it, at no additional essence loss.

So, if you ever lose that one focus you have, all you need is to pay the monetary and roleplay costs of getting a new one, and not-so-much the karma. If you upgrade, you simply put in the additional karma as if you originally had one that powerful, along with costs and etc.

Saves a little misery on the Karma-heavy mage, and with most foci being hideously expensive or hard to find at high ratings, not too much of a break.

[Muspellsheimr]

I like it.

[Stahlseele]

i don't, but i guess that stems from me not liking magic or something like that in any way enough to see them as underpowered so they don't have to spend as much karma . .
if they don't wanna have to pay for binding a new force 6 weapon focUS(not ci, that is plural), then they frigging should not lose the original one in the first place . .
the same way a rigger has to pay nuyen for a new vehicle if the old one is somehow lost . .

[Drogos]

I think a karma hole is a bad idea. If they lose the focus, they should have to pay full karma for it's replacement (or earn some by tracking it back down and retrieveing it). For upgrading a focus, though, AH's rules are quite nice. I really feels it cheapens magic when that R.3 sustaining focus you got at character gen is just pitched aside when you get a few karma and nuyen. Making a focus grow with a caster makes it much more worthwhile. Also make enchanting and arcana much more useful skills than the Karma sink they currently are.

[Falconer]

Personally, at a minimum. You'd need to create a custom formula to build the new focus, which included the original focus as one of it's material components. Especially since, focus aren't really mass produced, they're all custom little things as I understand. If the enchanting fails... all material components are lost including the original focus IIRC. As far as rebinding costs, value of the original focus in the enchanting costs,... and risk... up to the GM.

This is a grey area in the rules as best I can tell.

[Pendaric]

I like AH rules. Though I had not thought this would apply to the bonding karma as well. I live and learn.

[Stahlseele]

yes, AH is generally a good source for whatever regarding shadowrun . . especially ideas ^^