Using two weapons and burst fire Options

[Meschler]

Hello Folks,

as long time lurker, first time poster i have some ShadowRun 4 questions about the above topic. Maybe you can help me.

I have following situation: my new street-samurai character has ambidexterity and wants to use two automatic guns (Styr TMP modified with some nice mods from arsenal). I plan to shoot with the first gun (Full long burst) with my first simple action and then shoot with the other gun with my second simple action. Now my question is: what fireing mode can i use with the second gun? Can i use only a short burst or can i shot a second long burst? And how much recoil will i take? Will i take the uncompensatet recoil from the first gun to the second gun? What recoil will i get with the shot from the second gun (is it considered as first shot or as second shot)? Unfortunately i couldnt found any answer to these questions in the Rulebooks. The search function here as also nothing which could help me answering these questions.

Thank you for your time and help.

Best wishes from Germany,
Meschler

[Madrigan]

I have following situation: my new street-samurai character has ambidexterity and wants to use two automatic guns (Styr TMP modified with some nice mods from arsenal). I plan to shoot with the first gun (Full long burst) with my first simple action and then shoot with the other gun with my second simple action. Now my question is: what fireing mode can i use with the second gun? Can i use only a short burst or can i shot a second long burst? And how much recoil will i take? Will i take the uncompensatet recoil from the first gun to the second gun? What recoil will i get with the shot from the second gun (is it considered as first shot or as second shot)? Unfortunately i couldnt found any answer to these questions in the Rulebooks. The search function here as also nothing which could help me answering these questions.

I'm going off the top of my head here, but if you're not firing both weapons in the same Simple Action, then you shouldn't receive the recoil penalty to the second weapon as if you were. The recoil penalty applies to any weapon fired more than once in an Action Phase, so if you shoot with two different guns you should avoid it.

You'd be able to use any Simple Action firing mode: Single Shot, Semi-Auto, or Burst Fire. You couldn't fire a second long burst, because "Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long
burst can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa)." (Core book, p. 143)

So it looks like you'd be able to put one long burst and one short burst downrange in one Action Phase, without cumulative recoil penalties. At least according to my read of the rules. Note that if you fire the second weapon at a different target from the first, you get a -2 penalty for switching targets.

[Mäx]

I'm going off the top of my head here, but if you're not firing both weapons in the same Simple Action, then you shouldn't receive the recoil penalty to the second weapon as if you were. The recoil penalty applies to any weapon fired more than once in an Action Phase, so if you shoot with two different guns you should avoid it.

IIRC recoil always carries over to second shot no matter if your using the same or a different gun.

[CoyoteNZ]

You couldn't fire a second long burst, because "Long bursts only take a Simple Action, but only one long
burst can be fired in an Action Phase. An attacker could, however, fire a long burst and a short burst in the same Action Phase (or vice versa)." (Core book, p. 143)

Actually this is a limitation on the weapon itself, because there are exceptions to this rule. The High Velocity Assault Rifles (HVAR) are able to fire two long burts...

Unlike normal firearms, high-velocity weapons can fire two long bursts in a single Action Phase. All other rules for firing long bursts apply as noted on p. 143, SR4.

So, i'd say you could do two long bursts, one on each weapon, but recoil would be accumulative, and carry over like first burst, second burst normally does.

Max,
Dunedin, NZ

[Madrigan]

IIRC recoil always carries over to second shot no matter if your using the same or a different gun.

Okay, hang on... *consults Big Black Book*

P. 142, Recoil:
"Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. [...] Burst-fire weapons receive a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and -3 for the second. Long bursts suffer -5 (first burst in phase) or -6 recoil (second)." Emphasis mine: weapons, not characters. I stand by my interpretation: If he doesn't fire twice in one AP, gun A fires at -5 long burst, gun B fires at -2 short burst.

Now, if he's splitting his dice pool to fire two weapons in the same Simple Action, then you're right, he gets the recoil modifiers from each weapon applied to both weapons. Which is why I would suggest not doing that.

EDIT:

Actually this is a limitation on the weapon itself, because there are exceptions to this rule. The High Velocity Assault Rifles (HVAR) are able to fire two long burts...

So, i'd say you could do two long bursts, one on each weapon, but recoil would be accumulative, and carry over like first burst, second burst normally does.

Ah, you're right about the two long bursts. But I still disagree about the recoil.

[Glyph]

I would agree with Mäx, myself. The recoil represents how the firing of the weapon affects the shooter. Using a second firearm in a different hand shouldn't be a get-out-of recoil free card! The uncompensated recoil from the first gun would apply to the other gun, and the shot from the second gun would be considered a second shot. I mean hell, using a gun in either hand, if anything, would be more awkward than using just one, even with ambidexterity. I can't see it giving the wielder such a huge benefit (effectively the equivalent of an additional 5 points of recoil compensation).

As far as firing two long bursts being a limitation on the weapon, yeah. So you can fire two long bursts - if you are firing two HVAR weapons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Madrigan]

Using a second firearm in a different hand shouldn't be a get-out-of recoil free card!

Actually, I agree with you here, and it's something I would house-rule. But as far as the Rules-As-Written, it looks like it's possible.

[Tachi]

I agree with you all for full auto and burst, but, I don't know if I'd do it that way with semi-auto though. I know most of you have more experience with this game than I do, but....

Normally it's true that "Two gun mojo can't hit shit". But if you fire the guns separately, well....

I do two gun paladin drills when I go to the range, and, while I can understand the -2 for switching targets, I was thinking the recoil modifier was just from muzzle climb. One of the drills I do is a quick draw on two randomly placed targets (moved while I'm not looking). And, I've found that with practice I can draw both pistols, put two in the x ring on the first target, then turn my head and put two in the x ring of the other target. all in less than 3 seconds. Of course, that's on semi-auto at point shooting range, I probably would apply the penalty on full auto or burst.

You may be right, I may have just learned to adjust for it.

[CoyoteNZ]

Ok,

lets do a quick worked example to see if we are on the same mind set here.

The original post stated it was a Steye TMP, with some mods from Arsenal.

Core rules has the Steyr listed as no recoil comp, but as this is what the topic is mainly about, lets assume he somehow managed to make up 3 points of recoil comp.


Now, for a one gun, one hand example.
1st Simple action, fires long burst.
Recoil from 6 bullet long burst, first action, would be -5 to shooter. The 3 points of RC would drop the penalty to -2 dp, so first long burst would be rolled at -2 dp.

Now we know that the Steyr CAN'T fire a second long burst with the second simple action, this is a limitation of the weapon itself, only a HVAR can do that, but lets ignore that for right now as we are currently working on recoil part of the equation, so...

2nd simple action, fire 'another' long burst
Recoil carried over from first simple action of -2 is still present, and since all of the weapons RC has been used up, all of the recoil from the second long burst, -6 for six bullets, has to be added, giving a total recoil of -8 for the second long burst.

Ok, now lets assume that the shooter is going to try the same, but this time (s)he is firing with a modified Steyr (RC 3) in both hands, and has ambidexterity, so will not be suffering a penalty for firing off handed.

1st simple action, same as first example, -5 recoil, 3 of it taken by the modified RC, leaving -2 dp left over.
2nd simple action, fire a long burst with the second weapon. Now since the not being able to fire two long bursts in a action is a limitation of the weapon itself, and because the second weapon hasn't fired at all this IP, the second weapon CAN fire its long burst.
The shooter is already at -2 dp because of uncompensated recoil from the first shot. His body is shaking about due to the uncompensated recoil from the first shot. It doesn't matter how much RC the second weapon has, even if it had 20 or 30, his body has already taken uncompensated recoil from the first burst, his body is moving about and making it harder to shoot straight, and the RC of the second gun can have NO effect on this.

So, the 3 RC for the second gun CAN reduce the -6 recoil from firing a second action long burst on the second weapon, therefore the -6 will be reduced by 3, making it -3. You then add the already uncompensated recoil from the first shot (-2), for a total of -5 dp to the second shot.

Therefore he has (RAW as far as I can tell) reduced the recoil on the second shot by 3 points, the RC of our modified Steyr.

This is how I see it happening.

So 'my' summary,
1: He can fire two long bursts, because it is a limitation on most (ie non HVAR) weapons not to be able to do this, a mechanical limitation of weapons, not a limitation of the rules, and as he is firing the long bursts on different weapons, neither of the weapons are firing two long bursts on the same IP.
2: She gets the RC for each pistol, but the RC of the second pistol only reduces the recoil caused by the second weapon, it can not reduce the uncompensated recoil from the first weapon.

This second point is important, because instead of firing a long burst with A and a long burst with B, if she decided to fire a long burst with A, and only a single shot with B, even though the weapon has 3 RC, and a single shot as the second simple action only cause -1 point of recoil, the other -2 points of RC from the gun can not compensate for the -2 uncompensated recoil from the first shot, ie example 3...

Simple Action 1, long burst, -5 recoil, 3 points of recoil taken by pistol, uncompensated recoil, -2 dp to first shot,
Simple Action 2, single shot with second pistol, -1 recoil for single shot as second action, completely compensated by second pistols RC 3, but second shot still has -2 dp due to the -2 uncompensated recoil from first shot, which is now moving around the body, and the second weapons RC can do nothing about it at this stage.


Just how I see it, examples help.

Sorry it is slightly long winded, it is 3am, and I really need to go to bed now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Nite all.


Max,
Dunedin, NZ

[Fortune]

Firstly ...

Attacker Using a Second Firearm

Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.

Next, from the SR4 FAQ ...

Are Recoil modifiers cumulative across an entire Combat Turn, or just an Action Phase? Does Recoil Compensation apply to each attack/burst, or does it only apply once in an Action Phase? Can you give a better example of how recoil works?

Recoil modifiers are cumulative, but they only apply for that Action Phase. They do not carry over to additional Action Phases in a Combat Turn.

Recoil compensation only applies once during an entire Action Phase. In other words, each point of Recoil Compensation counteracts 1 point of Recoil modifiers for that entire Action Phase.

There are several things to keep in mind about recoil:
a) The first bullet never counts.
b) Every bullet fired in an Action Phase after the first incurs a cumulative -1 recoil dice pool modifier.
c) Each point of recoil compensation counteracts 1 point of recoil modifier.

Example #1:

Let's say you're firing a submachine gun in burst fire mode (3 bullets), with 1 point of recoil compensation. With your first Simple Action, you suffer a recoil modifier of -2 (first bullet is free, next two count). You have 1 point of recoil compensation, however, so that recoil modifier is reduced to -1.

On your second Simple Action, you suffer an additional -3 recoil modifier (three more bullets in the same Action Phase). You have a -1 recoil modifier carrying over from the first burst, so you're facing a total recoil modifier of -4. Your recoil compensation has already been fully applied (on the first burst), so your recoil modifier for the second burst is -4.

(Another way of looking at the second burst is to consider the total modifiers: -2 for the first burst and -3 for the second burst, for a total of -5. Subtract the 1 point of recoil compensation and you have a recoil modifier of -4.)

Example #2:

You are firing an assault rifle in full-auto mode. Your first attack is a regular 3-round burst, which incurs a -2 recoil modifier. You have 3 points of recoil compensation, however, so on this first attack you suffer no recoil modifiers.

For your second Simple Action, you fire a long burst of 6 bullets: an additional -6 recoil modifier. You have no recoil modifier carrying over from the first attack, but you do have 1 point of unapplied recoil compensation left (since you only used 2 of the 3 to negate the -2 modifier on the first attack). So on this second attack you suffer a -5 recoil modifier.

(Another way of looking at the second burst is to consider the total modifiers: -2 for the first burst and -6 for the second burst, for a total of -8. Subtract the 3 points of recoil compensation and you have a recoil modifier of -5.)

Example #3:

You are firing a medium machine gun in full-auto mode. MMGs count as heavy weapons, so all uncompensated recoil is doubled. Luckily you're using a gyro-mount that applies 6 points of recoil compensation!

On your first attack, a 3-round burst with a Simple Action, you're facing a -2 recoil modifier. Your recoil compensation eats that up, leaving you suffering no modifier.

On your second attack, a 6-round long burst with another Simple Action, you're facing an additional -6 recoil modifier. You have 4 points of your recoil compensation left (6 - 2), so that recoil modifier is reduced to -2. However, you're firing a heavy weapon, so it's doubled to -4.

(Again, you can look at the second burst via the total modifiers: -2 for the first burst and -6 for the second burst, for a total of -8. Subtract the 6 points of recoil compensation and you have a recoil modifier of -2, doubled to -4.)

Example #4:

This time you're firing your full-auto assault rifle against three targets. You take a Complex Action to fire a full burst, applying one 3-round burst against each target. Your recoil compensation is -2.

For the first target, you suffer a -2 recoil modifier. Your recoil compensation nullifies this, so you attack with no recoil modifiers.

On the second target, you pick up an additional -3 recoil. You have no cumulative recoil to apply from the first attack, and no recoil comp left, so you suffer -3.

On the third target, you pick up an additional -3 again. This time you have the -3 recoil from the previous attack to add to, and you used up your recoil compensation already, so now you're facing -6.

Therefore, when firing two weapons in the same Phase, even when using a Simple Action to fire one weapon and then a second Simple Action to use the other weapon, any uncompensated recoil from the first weapon would be attributed to the second action.

[Mäx]

Firstly ...



Next, from the SR4 FAQ ...



Therefore, when firing two weapons in the same Phase, even when using a Simple Action to fire one weapon and then a second Simple Action to use the other weapon, any uncompensated recoil from the first weapon would be attributed to the second action.

Thanks for finding the actual rule quotes that i was trying to remember.

[Meschler]

Hi Folks,

thank you for your help and your answeres.

It is clear now that the uncompensated recoil from the first SMG carries over to the second gun. But do we have a perfectely clear ruling if it is possible to fire a second long burst with the second weapon?

The ruling in the Base-Rules (only 1 long burst per action phase) seems to count for one weapon use and indicates a weapon restriction. But i couldnt find a concrete ruling if it is indeed a weapn restriction or a character restriction. The existence of the highvelocity weapons indicates a weapon restriction but i am not sure about that. What do you think or do you know were i can find the ruling for this?

Thank you again for your help.

Best wishes,
Meschler

[Glyph]

The rule stating that you can only fire one long burst in a phase is very clear. It is a limitation to the character, not the weapon. For those who would argue otherwise, I present the suppressive fire rules. For suppressive fire, you shoot 20 bullets. So obviously the gun itself is capable of firing two long bursts, but the character can only fire one a round while still keeping control of his aim. You can fire two long bursts if you are firing two HVAR weapons, because they fire more bullets, period - they fire more in full auto, more for suppressive fire, etc. But you cannot fire two long bursts with two normal full-auto-capable weapons.

It may seem like using two weapons isn't getting you that much, but actually, you are still getting recoil compensation modifiers from two different guns, so you do have an advantage over someone using only one gun.

[Falconer]

Glyph:
Arsenal is very clear... you only need *1* HVAR weapon to fire 2 long bursts. You don't need two. It specifically says it in the section on p26 of arsenal. "Unlike normal firearms, HVARs can fire 2 long bursts in a single action phase". If you read to the end... you'll note that HVARs cannot fire short bursts... the only way they can do so legally is to fire a full burst and attack multiple targets. So it's not as if there's no penalty to their use (not including the ammo bill). To put this another way, someone using a 2 handed HVAR assault rifle, CANNOT fire a long and a short burst in a round like other weapons can. The rules specifically forbid it.

I also don't buy the suppressive fire round count argument... as the point there is you're using area suppression and not aiming like you are with controlled bursts... I think the spirit of the rules is that a normal gun can't fire more than 10 rounds in an action phase as a controlled burst. That rule is in place to stop someone from firing 2 long bursts to get 12 rounds out in a single pass. HVARs and miniguns supercede this but bring their own limitations to the table to do so.

I don't see any good reason not to allow someone to use 2 different weapons for 2 long bursts, though by a very strict reading you're correct, it could be construed to not allow it, you're correct.


Subject at hand:
Actually the only item I see in question here is how the 2nd gun's recoil comp applies...

Lets say you have 2 SMG's both with -3 RC.

Fire the left hand long... 6 bullets, 5 -3 == 2 uncompensated penalty first shot
Fire the right hand long... 6 bullets, 5 -??? == ??? uncompensated. (I'd say it'd be -5 uncompensated total on second shot -2 + -3)

I'd say that the RC on the second gun hasn't been used, and should be added. Which gives an advantage to having 2 guns, as opposed to firing one faster if you take the ambidexterity and other 2WF type stuff. You could effectively double your mag size, and double your available recoil comp w/ 2 weapons.

I think the FAQ is pretty clear that it's 1 recoil per bullet fired in IP, first one free.


Although, personally I feel SMGs should take double recoil comp penalties for 1 handed use... that's not RAW just personal experience.

[Muspellsheimr]

How often you can fire what in a given round is always a weapon restriction, not a character restriction. So yes, if you are using two separate weapons, you can fire two long bursts without resorting to High Velocity weapons. Comparing it to Suppressive Fire does nothing Glyph, as they are different modes of fire. I can use the same logic to justify changing the rules to allow 20-round Full Auto fire instead of 9.

I also point you to read the Firearms section again. Yes, there is a line that says you can only fire one long burst in a turn, but if you bother to read everything else, it becomes quite clear it is addressing the weapons capabilities, not the characters. Context is everything.

[Madrigan]

Okay, I see where the read comes from in the quoted SR FAQ, and I agree with the interpretation here... but I note that the FAQ doesn't talk about using multiple weapons, and that's where the ambiguity comes from.

In a perfect world, the wording would be nailed down to remove that ambiguity... Dragon Magazine used to have a "Sage Advice" column for when these sort of rules questions came up in D&D. Is it possible to get the FAQ amended to specify that recoil applies regardless of whether you fire with one gun or two?

Or am I just way the hell off here, and it's intuitively obvious to everyone else? Wouldn't be the first time.

[Muspellsheimr]

Because the rules say recoil is cumulative between two weapons while firing simultaneously, I am inclined to say that is not normally the case. Fire Weapon 1 and Weapon 2, the recoil is cumulative. Fire Weapon 1 then Weapon 2, the recoil is separate.

[Fortune]

As far as I am concerned, firing two long bursts from two separate weapons (using a Simple Action for each) is perfectly allowable according to canon.

As for the FAQ, you always have the option of contacting Catalyst directly at info@shadowrun4.com. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortune]

Because the rules say recoil is cumulative between two weapons while firing simultaneously ...

Yes, but canon specifically states that Recoil is applicable for the entire Phase, which includes both Simple Actions (and a Free Action).

[Muspellsheimr]

I am not arguing that. I am simply pointing out that it appears to be cumulative only with the weapon the recoil came from, unless the two weapons are fired simultaneously.

So if your firing pattern goes:
Weapon 1, then Weapon 1, the recoil is cumulative.
Weapon 1, then Weapon 2, the recoil is not cumulative. (Different Actions)
Weapon 1, and Weapon 2, the recoil is cumulative. (Same Action)

[Falconer]

Musp:
I'd disagree heavily with that. The errata/FAQ gives nice clear rules about how those recoil charts were made. Quite frankly, I wish they just would have published that rather than muddling the issue unnecessarily. Without absolutely CLEAR text to the contrary, recoil is cumulative on the player per the entire phase.

Also, since each gun has seperate recoil comp. You're effectively doubling your available recoil compensation. Normally, the bigger problem on a second burst is that you've already run out or have very little recoil comp left. You've just eliminated that problem with 2.

Now toss in, that you really don't need ambidexterity if you don't mind taking an extra -2 penalty on one hand. That means anyone can do it.


On those grounds, alone I'd argue against you for balance reasons. I wouldn't want to see people getting off 2 penalty free long bursts in a round just because they happen to have 2 tricked out SMG's and ambidexterity, or only taking a -2 on the second. Not without them having to work at it, at least. (-5 RC per gun plus say some extra RC from strength).

[Muspellsheimr]

The FAQ addresses only firing a single weapon. Because of this, it can be debated on if it is counting cumulative recoil for the weapon, or for the character.

As there are rules specifically addressing recoil for firing two weapons simultaneously, I am inclined to believe the FAQ is addressing cumulative recoil for a weapon - any other weapons the character is using are counted separately.

[Meschler]

Hello Folks,

maybe we can get a developer to answer the questions? It would be perfect if Synner read this Topic and could answer the questions.

My group have had a long discussion about this 2 gun thing and we could found some rules to support the one way and some other rules to support the other way. Some players say it is perfectely legal to shoot 2 long burst with 2 weapons with a separate simple action each and some players disagree about that.

Its a difficult situation we have here. It would be perfect if a developer could help us out.

Best wishes and thank you again,
Meschler

[Glyph]

As I pointed out (and so did Falconer), someone using two weapons already has the advantage of two weapons' worth of recoil compensators. Interpreting the rules to allow them to pile on even more advantages (recoil from the first weapon not carrying over to the second weapon, getting to fire two long bursts in one pass) is insane.

Yeah, I'm aware that suppressive fire is a different mode of fire. That's the whole point of saying it's a character restriction rather than a weapon restriction. Obviously, the weapon is capable of firing 20 round bursts. Characters cannot fire 20 round bursts in normal ranged combat because they are trying to fire controlled bursts. And you can only fire one long burst a pass if you are firing controlled bursts. I don't see having an automatic weapon in each hand improving your control - if anything, it would be the opposite, ambidexterity or not.

Honestly, I remember some AD&D campaigns where every fighter had two-weapon fighting and dual-wielded their double-specialized longswords. Ruling liberally on this would have the same effect in a Shadowrun game, only all of the NPCs would probably do it, too, since it's so much incredibly better than using one firearm, even without ambidexterity.

[jago668]

Myself I would houserule you get recoil compensation on both, could fire two long bursts (one from each weapon); however uncompensated recoil would carry over.