Lightning bolts, from the caster or just appear? Options

[CoyoteNZ]

Just a quick question,

do lightning bolts emanate from the caster and flash towards the subject, crashing into anything which may be in the path such as windows etc., or do they just appear around the subject, and go zappy?

Max,
Dunedin, NZ.

[Cain]

Just a quick question,

do lightning bolts emanate from the caster and flash towards the subject, crashing into anything which may be in the path such as windows etc., or do they just appear around the subject, and go zappy?

Max,
Dunedin, NZ.

Technically speaking, you need an unrestricted path to the target, and you'll blast through anything in the way.

[Stahlseele]

Mana-Stuff appears on Target, everything with an elemental effect appears at the casters location and travels in a straight line to the targets destination.
Now imagine a Mage trying to drop a Fireball through the Mage-Eye System with fibre optical cables all through a building *snickers*

[Sceptic]

Mana-Stuff appears on Target, everything with an elemental effect appears at the casters location and travels in a straight line to the targets destination.

Got any 4th edition page references for that?

[Stahlseele]

aside for the fact that indirect combat spells(those with the flashy elemental bits) get resolved like a usual ranged attack?
no, not really, but i'm sure someone who knows their way around te rules a bit better can point out some other pointers that point to this pointed out conclusion. i guess i have made my point.
now where is my pointy head?

[JoelHalpern]

aside for the fact that indirect combat spells(those with the flashy elemental bits) get resolved like a usual ranged attack?
no, not really, but i'm sure someone who knows their way around te rules a bit better can point out some other pointers that point to this pointed out conclusion. i guess i have made my point.
now where is my pointy head?

Actually, there have been several threads that have observed that while your description is intuitively correct, it is not RAW. As far as I can tell, the best reading of RAW is that the elemental effect simply appears at the target. You say "resolved like a usual ranged attack" except that it lacks the single most important property of ranged attacks, namely range modifiers. There is no short/medium... range for indirect combat spells. Sure there are visibility modifiers, but those apply to direct spells too.

Yours,
Joel Halpern

PS: Given how often this comes up, I would not be surprised if there are also threads that came to the opposite conclusion.

[hyzmarca]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOQI-LAEzM

Question answered.


The clip above also demonstrates why you shouldn't torture someone with low-force lightning in front of his dad and near a pit.

[Stahlseele]

Actually, there have been several threads that have observed that while your description is intuitively correct, it is not RAW. As far as I can tell, the best reading of RAW is that the elemental effect simply appears at the target. You say "resolved like a usual ranged attack" except that it lacks the single most important property of ranged attacks, namely range modifiers. There is no short/medium... range for indirect combat spells. Sure there are visibility modifiers, but those apply to direct spells too.

Yours,
Joel Halpern

PS: Given how often this comes up, I would not be surprised if there are also threads that came to the opposite conclusion.

but visibility modifiers and mana does not care about range, as long as you can see something, it is IN RANGE . . you could simply say that short range is about 10.000m . .
against elemental spells you get to dodge and your armor adds to your body roll instead of no dodge and no armor and no body but willpower . . that's pretty much ranged attack

[Mäx]

against elemental spells you get to dodge and your armor adds to your body roll instead of no dodge and no armor and no body but willpower . . that's pretty much ranged attack

That really has no revelance to the question att hand.
You get the armor+body roll becouse it's a physical effect thats harming you and not pure mana. Getting dodge doesn't in any way tell us whether the lightningbolt come to being at the caster or the target.

[Stahlseele]

well, it's a bloody stupid example . . especially with such things as sound and electricity elemental effects . .
but how would you want to DODGE the Fire-Ball if he just goes kabloey on your position?
if he flies in yxour general direction, you can see and dodge just fine . . doesn't really explain how you would dodge lightning either from the fingers of the mage or coming from the heavens above . .

[Tarantula]

It just appears at the target, like all the other spells. There is nothing in the indirect combat spells descriptions that makes a flamethrower hit the glass instead of someone behind it.

[Cain]

The Indirect Combat spell description does mention blasting through barriers, however.

[Drogos]

Does that mention refer just to area spells, though? Just a curious bystander that has already used up his allotment of misread/interpreted rules for the day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Cain]

Does that mention refer just to area spells, though? Just a curious bystander that has already used up his allotment of misread/interpreted rules for the day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No, it mentions it for Indirect combat spells in general. It's not especially clear, but the rules it refers to are explicitly for blasting through barriers.

[Tarantula]

The Indirect Combat spell description does mention blasting through barriers, however.

No, it mentions it for Indirect combat spells in general. It's not especially clear, but the rules it refers to are explicitly for blasting through barriers.

Uh, no, it does not. Not that I can see anyway. The only mention of barriers at all is for how nonliving objects resist the damage (with their armor ratingx2).

[Cain]

Uh, no, it does not. Not that I can see anyway. The only mention of barriers at all is for how nonliving objects resist the damage (with their armor ratingx2).

And a page reference, which is almost entirely taken up with how to shoot through a barrier.

[Tarantula]

But the reference it to the fact that they resist the damage with armorx2. The same way barriers do. It does not explicitly reference the shooting through a barrier text, nor make any hint that that is the text to be referred to.
SR4, 196, "Note that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 157)."
SR4, 157, Barriers, "Barriers
Sometimes, a character may wish to attack through a barrier,
either to get at a target on the other side or to make a hole through
which he can move. The procedure for each is described below."

The text is referencing the destroying barriers rules, as the method for resolving damage to inanimate objects with an indirect combat spell. It does not say you must shoot through a barrier.

[DireRadiant]

P. 196
"Indirect Combat Spells: Indirect Combat spells are
treated like ranged combat attacks; the caster makes a Magic
+ Spellcasting Success Test versus the target’s Reaction. If the
spell hits, the target resist with Body + half Impact armor
(+ Counterspelling, if available), with each hit reducing the
Damage Value. If the modifi ed spell DV does not exceed the
modifi ed Armor, Physical damage is converted to Stun. Note
that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat
spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 157)."

P. 157
"Sometimes, a character may wish to attack through a barrier,
either to get at a target on the other side or to make a hole through
which he can move. Th e procedure for each is described below."

Small snippet of some interest in that section
"Against Indirect Combat spells and explosives attached
directly, barriers roll only their Armor rating."

If I understand your argument, you claim because indirect spells include a reference to barriers, that all indirect spells must travel from caster to target otherwise why have barriers referenced?

Have you considered that Indirect Spells can be targeted at Barriers, and thus the Barrier rules are referenced in case someone does so?

If in most cases if I have LOS for the targeting range for a spell I can create that effect at any single point in that range, why is it in the case of Indirect Spells that I can only have the effect if it starts at my personal location and must then travel to the target?

[Stahlseele]

'cause of the pyrotechnics and SFX

[AllTheNothing]

I think the barriers line is intended for player that want to get rid of them, if it's in the way just destroy it; a different case are indirect area of effect phisical spells, if want to hit a target who has complete cover you can use phisical AoE spells to include him/her/it in the spell radius and the spell works as usual, if you can't do that (or don't want do that) you can try to blast trough the barrier aiming at the section that you think covers the target and do enough damage to breach the barrier.
In reguard of the original question I think that lightning bolts simply appears, otherwise you wouln't be able to use magesight goggles.

[hobgoblin]

how about casting a indirect spell when there is a closed window between the caster and the target?

thats the classical example from earlier editions...

[Tarantula]

It works just fine. The window does not need to be blown out. Happens the exact same as if they cast a powerbolt.

[Apathy]

I'm constantly having problems mixing up my SR3 RAW and SR4 RAW. In SR3, it unambiguously stated that indirect elemental spells traveled from the caster to the target, and had to break through any intervening barriers (like, armored glass, for instance). This fit with the idea that the target could dodge the attack (since they could see it coming). The target is still allowed to dodge the attack, which I take as support for my stance that the attack travels. But I'd agree that it's ambiguous enough that you could interpret the other way.

From a fluff perspective, I like the idea of shooting lightning bolts from my fingertips, rather than a little cloud of lightning suddenly popping up and discharging at the target. YMMV.

[hobgoblin]

meh, i just mailed them at info@shadowrun4.com about it.

[Fortune]

I have always ruled that Indirect Combat spells travel from the caster to the target.