The End of Cyberpunk?, Why I'm having trouble with 4th ed Options

[streetangelj]

I've brought this subject up in a couple of my posts, but gotten no real feedback. Therefore, I'm giving it it's own thread. Cyberpunk is dying (if not already expired) and something new is taking it's place. I'm not really sure what that is, but I don't want to see my favorite game die with it because it doesn't adapt. As far as I can tell, it is adapting; which is making the setting a little difficult for me to fully grasp (and therefore run a great game- as my past ones have been). The guys at Catalyst are doing a great job getting material out and Unwired is helping me to understand the wireless matrix and AR a lot better. I noticed from the age poll that I'm on the top endof the age range of most of the players (at 35), which may be part of my problem. I'll quote what I said in that thread:

"Another problem with attracting younger players is that cyberpunk is rooted in "Big Brother/NWO" (not the cheesy reality show/wrestling group), "Hackers" and "Terminator" style anti-technological fears/wonderment. Most of us grew up without the everpresent tech that exists even now. My daughter is 7 and frequently uses the computer at home (I never saw one until I was 10, and didn't have a PC - a Commodore Vic-20 at that- until I was 13; now that kind of computing power is smoked by a calculator or cellphone) and plays video games on the PS2 (I saw games only remotely comparable at the expensive arcades). She also knows how to use a cellphone better than I do, because her mom and grandma have always had them. The new edition of SR is moving away from cyberpunk because their isn't any real substance left for cyberpunk to draw from. In the US, we have privatized public services (my city just tried to lease out its sewers), security companies with their own SWAT teams (my brother worked for on in Toledo, OH 15 years ago), private armies (Blackwater, anyone?), wireless digital communication and computing practically everywhere, Megacorps (Chrysler, Disney, the german holding company that owns RJR-Nabisco and other large companies like it which I can't remember the name of, and that's just what I know about off the top of my head), a government that is rapidly decreasing our liberties "to insure our safety", and medical science making leaps and bounds in Biotech/Cybernetics/Robotics. All those fears/wonders are facts of everday life and hold no special "mystique" to draw a new player in.

I think in order to draw in the younger players, you need to stress the one thing about SR most of us have been brushing under the rug for years- the fact that a shadowrunner is a professional criminal/mercenary. Look at the popularity of "The Sopranos", the Mobsters Myspace App, and multiplayer FPS shooters. Give the players a chance to "stick it to the man", like most teens want to do instinctively. You also need to highlight the magic aspects of the setting, which is what seperated it from all the other (effectively dead) cyberpunk games."


Also the more gear-oriented nature of the new edition is a style change I'm having trouble with. Why drill holes in your head and yank out your eyes when sunglasses and a trode net can accomplish the same thing (I don't want to start another debate over this one, I'm just pointing it out becausee it couldn't be done in previous editions- and don't get me started on emotitoys)? It's changing the feel of the game for me and "I'm not positive I like that change.

I've been running and occasionally playing SR since it came out and own every sourcebook up through 3rd ed and about 1/2 of 4th (money crunch) as well as a handfull of adventures and frequently draw on them and past creations for inspiration while working out new stories for my players. For that reason I'm finding it difficult to figure out how to run a game "by the book", 400 BP just isn't enough to run the style of game I'm good at (too "street" for me), although the karmagen option does seem to build more suitable characters.

Advice? Opinions? Help...

J

[Fuchs]

I don't have the same views, and I played SR from the first edition, and am your age. For me, Cyberpunk is just a word. Even in the 1990s, I never saw Shadowrun as centered on Robin Hoods fighting the good fight against evil corps, but career criminals out for themselves. Regarding the technology: I see Shadowrun's daily life in the wireless world as very close to a current MMOG - people have profiles you can read, all sorts of customised "Mods" change how you perceive the world, and you use additional info (maps, private messages, chat channels, inventory, etc.) on a HUD-display while you move and talk on the phone (vent).

[Vegetaman]

I'm only 21, and I got into Shadowrun in about 2001... And despite the fact that I use computers all the time, in fact it is my major in college (Computer Science), I still have a love for Shadowrun. I've only ever played 3rd edition, but whereas all of my friends got hooked in D&D 3 and 3.5, I got bitten by the Shadowrun bug. With it's storyline and singular universe, it has something that other role playing games do not have.

But yes, the stress needs to be on the fact that Shadowrunners are just guns for hire. Too many players anymore seem to inject morals into their Shadowrunners that... Well, I feel are unrealistic. I think they do it without knowing it, really.

[Spike]

I see to major problems with the OP.

First is an overly restrictive definition of what Cyberpunk means

Second is the misaprehension that Shadowrun has ever been a truly Cyberpunk themed Game/setting, rather than a game with some Cyberpunk elements thrown in for flavor.

[Ravor]

I morn the loss of Pink Mohawks deeply.

[hobgoblin]

cyberpunk is many things to many people...

still, cyberpunk was i bit like star trek hit with a paint stripper, viewed from the klingon side...

[Zombayz]

Cyberpunk is still punk as fuck. You just have to play with actual punks, or people that share the beliefs.

[maded]

I think in order to draw in the younger players, you need to stress the one thing about SR most of us have been brushing under the rug for years- the fact that a shadowrunner is a professional criminal/mercenary. Look at the popularity of "The Sopranos", the Mobsters Myspace App, and multiplayer FPS shooters. Give the players a chance to "stick it to the man", like most teens want to do instinctively. You also need to highlight the magic aspects of the setting, which is what seperated it from all the other (effectively dead) cyberpunk games.

I'm 37 (I'm not old!), so I feel you on the age thing and being on the upper tier of the poll, which I likely missed since I rarely do more than lurk here.

I don't know if I agree with you that a 'runner is always a professional criminal/mercenary. While that seems to be the popular opinion, in my own worldview, I see tham as anything but polished professionals. They are disposable, deniable street scum, desperate and willing to do anything for a buck to survive, hired by the corps to do the dirtiest jobs that they wouldn't put their own employees up to. I think the only people who might view them as "professionals" are the 'runners themselves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But then again, I prefer a more street game, myself. There's more brotherhood in a gang or criminal organization than in a bunch of money-hungry pros who don't trust anyone any farther than they can throw them. And the street is the ultimate expression of "sticking it to the man"; the little guy getting one up on the big fish. Survivng to tell about it is another thing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Magic definitely needs to be highlighted, I agree, but when the Awakened populace is so small it's hard to really press home the point if you play it by the book and make them as rare as they are supposed to be. I tend to use a lot of bigscreen action 'vids in the background with the heroes as wizzes when I run things to play up magic, with very few practiced magicians unless it's a big run against a major corp target.

Also the more gear-oriented nature of the new edition is a style change I'm having trouble with. Why drill holes in your head and yank out your eyes when sunglasses and a trode net can accomplish the same thing (I don't want to start another debate over this one, I'm just pointing it out becausee it couldn't be done in previous editions- and don't get me started on emotitoys)? It's changing the feel of the game for me and I'm not positive I like that change.

I believe the gear you are describing is there to accomodate 'runners who may need to be more Essence-friendly, for the most part. Mages shouldn't be stuck in the dark ages with tech just because they need their Essence for magic, relying soley on casting spells all the time for any effect that might replicate tech. But you can't misplace, drop, or step on cybereyes (unless they're already out of your head!), so they are much more practical for those with no Essence worries in the long run. Plus, it's really easy to mix-n-match functionality with a pair of contacts or shades without having to update your cybereyes constantly.

And besides, every cyberpunk worth their salt has to have mirrorshades...

I've been running and occasionally playing SR since it came out and own every sourcebook up through 3rd ed and about 1/2 of 4th (money crunch) as well as a handfull of adventures and frequently draw on them and past creations for inspiration while working out new stories for my players. For that reason I'm finding it difficult to figure out how to run a game "by the book", 400 BP just isn't enough to run the style of game I'm good at (too "street" for me), although the karmagen option does seem to build more suitable characters.

Me too, 1e and up, although most of my old stuff is packed away or gone now.

Karmagen, not so much for me, but if you enjoy it, cool. BP can be boosted to up the ante on chargen quite easily, and I'm fine with that myself. I'm not much on the whole polished pro thing, enjoying the street level more, and I think that this version of SR caters more to that level for the most part. Most of your major cyberpunk heroes of literature aren't polished pros/mercenaries... Case was a small-time fixer, junkie and dealer after getting busted down from his high horse, and even Molly Millions was street to the core, despite her cyber and general badassery.

[DocTaotsu]

Magic is rare but I think people blow how rare it is out of proportion. Magical active represent about 1 percent of the population. Doctors represent less than 1 percent. We all know at least one doctor (I'd hope) so it's not unreasonable to believe that everyone has some direct contact with the Awakened on a regular basis.

[hobgoblin]

and not all magically active have to be magic 6. maybe there is the street healer that had heal as a knack?

or the near burnout shaman talking to rats in the alley.

magic, unlike doctors, can pop up in the strangest of places.

[DocTaotsu]

True true.

Oh and the bit about Molly and Case is spot on. Molly was clearly described as a sami who didn't have the best chrome in the world... she had just enough to make it work and the fuck anyone attitude to push it home.

[noonesshowmonkey]

I see to major problems with the OP.

First is an overly restrictive definition of what Cyberpunk means

Second is the misaprehension that Shadowrun has ever been a truly Cyberpunk themed Game/setting, rather than a game with some Cyberpunk elements thrown in for flavor.

What is with people thinking that relativism of this sort is valid criticism? Definitions define things. They typify and create boundaries and categories. Thats what they are. A non-restrictive definition is an oxy-moron - a contradiction in terms. What that is... is vague.

The portion regarding SR as a game that has cyberpunk elements is, however, better recieved. To say that SR is not cyberpunk is close minded in its own right. So, really, the whole 'critique' of the OP was basically a stuffed shirt.

[Kalvan]

Personally, Shadowrun Always struck me as more Cyberthrash or Cyber-Speed Metal with a little mindbending psychodellia and noir mixed in.

I would say a more Cyberpunk Shadowrun wouldn't feature meetings with Mr. Jonhson, even at a runner bar at the Barrens (Except to graffiti tag his briefcase/pda and those sellouts actually meeting with him). It would feature meetings with the likes of Uncle Che and Bombshell Betty, and the use of gangs as more than just mobile scenery and random combat encounters.

But that's just me, YMMV

[MaxMahem]

I've brought this subject up in a couple of my posts, but gotten no real feedback. Therefore, I'm giving it it's own thread. Cyberpunk is dying (if not already expired) and something new is taking it's place. I'm not really sure what that is, but I don't want to see my favorite game die with it because it doesn't adapt. As far as I can tell, it is adapting; which is making the setting a little difficult for me to fully grasp (and therefore run a great game- as my past ones have been). The guys at Catalyst are doing a great job getting material out and Unwired is helping me to understand the wireless matrix and AR a lot better. I noticed from the age poll that I'm on the top endof the age range of most of the players (at 35), which may be part of my problem. I'll quote what I said in that thread:

"Another problem with attracting younger players is that cyberpunk is rooted in "Big Brother/NWO" (not the cheesy reality show/wrestling group), "Hackers" and "Terminator" style anti-technological fears/wonderment. Most of us grew up without the everpresent tech that exists even now. My daughter is 7 and frequently uses the computer at home (I never saw one until I was 10, and didn't have a PC - a Commodore Vic-20 at that- until I was 13; now that kind of computing power is smoked by a calculator or cellphone) and plays video games on the PS2 (I saw games only remotely comparable at the expensive arcades). She also knows how to use a cellphone better than I do, because her mom and grandma have always had them. The new edition of SR is moving away from cyberpunk because their isn't any real substance left for cyberpunk to draw from. In the US, we have privatized public services (my city just tried to lease out its sewers), security companies with their own SWAT teams (my brother worked for on in Toledo, OH 15 years ago), private armies (Blackwater, anyone?), wireless digital communication and computing practically everywhere, Megacorps (Chrysler, Disney, the german holding company that owns RJR-Nabisco and other large companies like it which I can't remember the name of, and that's just what I know about off the top of my head), a government that is rapidly decreasing our liberties "to insure our safety", and medical science making leaps and bounds in Biotech/Cybernetics/Robotics. All those fears/wonders are facts of everday life and hold no special "mystique" to draw a new player in.

I think in order to draw in the younger players, you need to stress the one thing about SR most of us have been brushing under the rug for years- the fact that a shadowrunner is a professional criminal/mercenary. Look at the popularity of "The Sopranos", the Mobsters Myspace App, and multiplayer FPS shooters. Give the players a chance to "stick it to the man", like most teens want to do instinctively. You also need to highlight the magic aspects of the setting, which is what seperated it from all the other (effectively dead) cyberpunk games."

Part of the problem is because what you said is fundamental true. Cyberpunk IS dying. Cyberpunk is a child of the 80's. And the distopian view of the future that was held then is a lot different than the view that is held now. Back in the early 80's, still on the cusps on the computer revolution and the information age it was hard to see just how dramatically and fundamentally these revolutions are going to shake our world. I think we are still in the process of figuring that out now. Other potential revolutions such as those that may be coming in biology (with genetic enginnering) and nanotechnology (even though I think most of the crap talked about is pretty dam unlikely) were entirely unforeseen. And some revolutions (most prominetly cyberwear) seem less and less likely to happen today.

The other big problem is that one of the unforeseen consequences of the information revolution was a serious blow to the threat of the big brother and corporate control ideologies. In the 80s the coming information revolution seemed to make the threat of goverement control more realistic and frightening. After all only big corporations or big governments could control the 'Big Iron Mainframes' that would make such control possible. But in reality it hasn't worked out that way (at least not yet). The explosion in data that the information revolution and pervasive computing has introduced has made such 'Big Iron' style control much more difficult, and whats more means to control information has been democratized and spread out on the net to an extent that was certainly unforeseen. As was the computing power and access to information that a private citizen might controls today. Today the net is such a fractious place, and information is in such quantities and is so hard to control, that the idea of a big-brother style state or corp control us through it seems less likely as well.

I shouldn't be to hard on the 80's view of cyberpunk. It feel in to the most common trap of all futurists. Assuming that tomorrow will still be fundamentally like today (I mean they even assumed that 80's fashion would last forever... I mean really...). It is hard to imagine how different the future may end up being then the world today. The momentum of the present is strong in our minds. Heck. I may be falling into that same trap when I criticize it myself! Predicting the future is a tricky business after all. And I should also point out that cyberpunk still may end up getting a lot of things right after all.

Anyways. Cyberpunk IS dying. At least the 80's view of it is. We may morn its passing, but it should come as no surprise given that the future it predicted seems less and less likely from our current point of view. But just because 80's cyberpunk is dying, it doesn't mean cyberpunk is dying doesn't mean the genre as a whole has to go away. Some of the themes of cyberpunk, being an outcast from society, being a helpless cog in the machine, fighting against the man, giving up your humanity just to survive, are universal. The trick is to re-imagine how cyberpunk can stay relevant given our current view of the future. I think SR4 does a pretty god job of this, though it does unavoidably move away from cyberpunks roots in the process.

Also the more gear-oriented nature of the new edition is a style change I'm having trouble with. Why drill holes in your head and yank out your eyes when sunglasses and a trode net can accomplish the same thing (I don't want to start another debate over this one, I'm just pointing it out becausee it couldn't be done in previous editions- and don't get me started on emotitoys)? It's changing the feel of the game for me and "I'm not positive I like that change.

I agree with you on this. A fundamental theme of cyberpunk is having to pay a cost (in terms of flesh and/or humanity) to get ahead in the world. Some of the no-loss gear options 4ed introduced do tend to take away from this I think. My solution is to ban/scale back the tech on these things. Don't let trodes or glasses give the same amount of bonus as there cybernetic equivalents. Make the effects of emotoys severally limited.

I've been running and occasionally playing SR since it came out and own every sourcebook up through 3rd ed and about 1/2 of 4th (money crunch) as well as a handfull of adventures and frequently draw on them and past creations for inspiration while working out new stories for my players. For that reason I'm finding it difficult to figure out how to run a game "by the book", 400 BP just isn't enough to run the style of game I'm good at (too "street" for me), although the karmagen option does seem to build more suitable characters.

I guess the first step is to fundamentally decide what kind of cyberpunk game you want to run. You can easily play up the cyberpunk themes at pretty mcuh any level. From street-level gutter punks, to world-traveling super agents. Think up a couple example types of runs you would like the players to go on. Then figure out where you would like the players to go from there.

Personally I like the 400BP level as it starts the players a bit out of the streets, but gives them some room to grow as the game progresses.

[Kalvan]

Part of the problem is because what you said is fundamental true. Cyberpunk IS dying. Cyberpunk is a child of the 80's. And the distopian view of the future that was held then is a lot different than the view that is held now. Back in the early 80's, still on the cusps on the computer revolution and the information age it was hard to see just how dramatically and fundamentally these revolutions are going to shake our world. I think we are still in the process of figuring that out now. Other potential revolutions such as those that may be coming in biology (with genetic enginnering) and nanotechnology (even though I think most of the crap talked about is pretty dam unlikely) were entirely unforeseen. And some revolutions (most prominetly cyberwear) seem less and less likely to happen today.

Actually, from what I've been reading in science journals, and even the likes of Discover and Popular Science this stuff appears to be right on schedule. If anything, it seems almost ten years ahead of schedule. The details are a little different, but the big picture is the same.

The other big problem is that one of the unforeseen consequences of the information revolution was a serious blow to the threat of the big brother and corporate control ideologies. In the 80s the coming information revolution seemed to make the threat of goverement control more realistic and frightening. After all only big corporations or big governments could control the 'Big Iron Mainframes' that would make such control possible. But in reality it hasn't worked out that way (at least not yet). The explosion in data that the information revolution and pervasive computing has introduced has made such 'Big Iron' style control much more difficult, and whats more means to control information has been democratized and spread out on the net to an extent that was certainly unforeseen. As was the computing power and access to information that a private citizen might controls today. Today the net is such a fractious place, and information is in such quantities and is so hard to control, that the idea of a big-brother style state or corp control us through it seems less likely as well.

Then how do you explain what happened to Napster? How do you explain the USA PATRIOT act or DMCA? How do you explain the court case of Bush vs. Gore? They even got the 3rd Japanese invastion right. Look at Viz and Shoshinkan vs. Marvel, DC, and Image, or how Toyota has eclipsed GM. Okay, so United forgot to put armed to the teeth air security on it's planes on September 11 so no Shiawase analogue decision, but I am willing to bet Halliburton is going to sponsor a coup against Obama with full Pentagon approval in the first 100 days, assuming the Shrub doesn't declare martial law and shoot his enemies in cold blood on the congressional floors....

snip.

Anyways. Cyberpunk IS dying. At least the 80's view of it is. We may morn its passing, but it should come as no surprise given that the future it predicted seems less and less likely from our current point of view. But just because 80's cyberpunk is dying, it doesn't mean cyberpunk is dying doesn't mean the genre as a whole has to go away. Some of the themes of cyberpunk, being an outcast from society, being a helpless cog in the machine, fighting against the man, giving up your humanity just to survive, are universal. The trick is to re-imagine how cyberpunk can stay relevant given our current view of the future. I think SR4 does a pretty god job of this, though it does unavoidably move away from cyberpunks roots in the process.

Aside from a lack of big hair, air-conditioned jeans, and leg warmers, and the rise of the collectible card game everything I see in pop culture nowadays seems like the early to mid Nineties were slight blip, and the Eighties returned with a vengence, adjusted for inflation, of course (even [and especially] the Japanese Imports). Yes, Hair Metal may still be dead the last time I checked, but the Pop Punk of Good Charlotte and Fall Out Boy is just as banal, and there was even some of it way back in my childhood days. (Have you really forgotten about Cheap Trick, the Knack, and The Romantics?)

How do you explain Enron, Haliburton, the "Contract With America," Fox News, Saipan, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Guantanamo Bay?

What you refuse to admit, MaxMeyhem, is that the Cyberpunk Future has come to pass and is contunuing to come to pass. You are either simply shrugging your shoulders and/or averting your eyes. If it's mainstream popularity has waned, it is because most people want escapism or at least versimilitude, not reality.

[Glyph]

Shadowrun has always had cyberpunk elements, but it has never been a wholly cyberpunk game. Cyberpunk is what they stuck in with D&D, Tolkien, John Woo, and James Bond before they set the blender to frappe. It has enough specific elements not to be a generic mush like GURPS, but it is not completely tied to a dying genre, either. Currently, transhumanism and urban fantasy are both going strong, and Shadowrun has many elements from both of those.

Shadowrun can be punk antiheroes sticking it to the man in an 80's action movie with pink mohawks, or it can be gutter punks struggling to survive in a world where they are nothing but disposable assets, or it can be cold, hard pros who commit corporate espionage and sabotage for money.

Or it can be a punk antihero, a gutter punk, and a cold hard pro all trying not to kill each other (or trying to kill each other), while the GM sits back and enjoys the trainwreck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Kalvan]

Or it can be a punk antihero, a gutter punk, and a cold hard pro all trying not to kill each other (or trying to kill each other), while the GM sits back and enjoys the trainwreck. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Should I ever get around to making one, would you mind if I used that in my sig?

[Wounded Ronin]

"Another problem with attracting younger players is that cyberpunk is rooted in "Big Brother/NWO" (not the cheesy reality show/wrestling group), "Hackers" and "Terminator" style anti-technological fears/wonderment. Most of us grew up without the everpresent tech that exists even now. My daughter is 7 and frequently uses the computer at home (I never saw one until I was 10, and didn't have a PC - a Commodore Vic-20 at that- until I was 13; now that kind of computing power is smoked by a calculator or cellphone) and plays video games on the PS2 (I saw games only remotely comparable at the expensive arcades). She also knows how to use a cellphone better than I do, because her mom and grandma have always had them. The new edition of SR is moving away from cyberpunk because their isn't any real substance left for cyberpunk to draw from. In the US, we have privatized public services (my city just tried to lease out its sewers), security companies with their own SWAT teams (my brother worked for on in Toledo, OH 15 years ago), private armies (Blackwater, anyone?), wireless digital communication and computing practically everywhere, Megacorps (Chrysler, Disney, the german holding company that owns RJR-Nabisco and other large companies like it which I can't remember the name of, and that's just what I know about off the top of my head), a government that is rapidly decreasing our liberties "to insure our safety", and medical science making leaps and bounds in Biotech/Cybernetics/Robotics. All those fears/wonders are facts of everday life and hold no special "mystique" to draw a new player in.

Even so it doesn't mean you can't play a cyberpunk game with nymphomaniac sammies wielding flechette pistols and Harrison Ford eating ramen noodles at a stand designed by Ridley Scott.

Would you say that since the dark ages are long gone someone couldn't fire up a historically accurate campaign of D&D with lots of research into titles, social order, the politics of Charlemagne, and so on?

Look at Fallout 3. The majority of the players have never seen the 50s firsthand. But they can still appreciate references to the 50s and imagery inspired by the 50s.

[MaxMahem]

Actually, from what I've been reading in science journals, and even the likes of Discover and Popular Science this stuff appears to be right on schedule. If anything, it seems almost ten years ahead of schedule. The details are a little different, but the big picture is the same.

I'm not sure exactly what your referring to in this point. But from my read of things cybertechnology is looking more and more likely to be mostly bypassed by its organic equivalents. As for nano-technology, SR4 has a fairly rational approach to it, but most of the 'grey-goo' stuff that people dream about remains utter lunacy IMO (and I have a BS in chemistry, so I know a bit about that which I speak).

But of course my point was that 80s cyberpunk missed its mark in predicting the future to some degree. It didn't forse exactly how much the information revolution would revolutionize the world. Or the extent of change that the revolution that smaller, faster, cheaper computers would bring. Or biowear, or nanotechnology. This is no blow against it, mind you, I doubt I would have seen these revolutions coming either mind you.

Then how do you explain what happened to Napster? How do you explain the USA PATRIOT act or DMCA? How do you explain the court case of Bush vs. Gore? They even got the 3rd Japanese invastion right. Look at Viz and Shoshinkan vs. Marvel, DC, and Image, or how Toyota has eclipsed GM. Okay, so United forgot to put armed to the teeth air security on it's planes on September 11 so no Shiawase analogue decision, but I am willing to bet Halliburton is going to sponsor a coup against Obama with full Pentagon approval in the first 100 days, assuming the Shrub doesn't declare martial law and shoot his enemies in cold blood on the congressional floors....

If anything I think Napster, DMCA, and PATRIOT just serve to prove my point. 80's cyberpunk envisioned a world where these acts happened, and succeed. The information revolution was crushed, information was controlled, and people were counted and registered, or slipped out of the machine entirely. We live in a world where these acts happened, and mostly failed. Despite government and corporate attempts to stop the information revolution, it proceeds at a breakneck pace. Despite the demise of Napster and the DMCA pirated information continues to be traded freely. Even more importantly a vast wealth of information exists out there created by the masses which the powers that be do not control. Worse yet, the most successful corporate strategy to deal with the information revolution appears not to be attempts to control information, but in fact to contribute and facilitate its distribution among the masses. This is very much a break from the 80s idea of cyberpunk. Yes, there is now more information out there than ever for the 'man' to collect about us. But this very wealth of information has made the vetting and use of this information even more difficult.

Also: Bush declaring martial law? Haliburton sponsoring a coup against Obama!?! Well if you are serious about making a bet, I will certainly take you up on it! What are your stakes!

Aside from a lack of big hair, air-conditioned jeans, and leg warmers, and the rise of the collectible card game everything I see in pop culture nowadays seems like the early to mid Nineties were slight blip, and the Eighties returned with a vengeance, adjusted for inflation, of course (even [and especially] the Japanese Imports). Yes, Hair Metal may still be dead the last time I checked, but the Pop Punk of Good Charlotte and Fall Out Boy is just as banal, and there was even some of it way back in my childhood days. (Have you really forgotten about Cheap Trick, the Knack, and The Romantics?)

As I said, 80's Cyberpunk certainly DID get a lot of things right. The rise in the prominence of the Japanese and Asian industry and culture was certainly one of them. I would not dispute that! To an extant the rise of corporate power is another theme that rings true today as well. Pop-music being mostly crap is pretty much a constant in reality, no matter the time period.

How do you explain Enron, Haliburton, the "Contract With America," Fox News, Saipan, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and Guantanamo Bay?

Enron, Haliburton, Fox News: Giant possibly morally corrupt corporations with large amounts of power. As I said above, the rise in corporate power is certianly a theme that cyberpunk got right. As do some of our recent banking woes.
Contract With America: I haven't noticed much out of the political careers of Newt Gingrich or Tom DeLay lately have you? Not real sure how this applies to 80's cyberpunk though.
Iraqi and Guantanamo: Possibly government abuses of power, but cyberpunk has generally been about corporate abuses of power.

What you refuse to admit, MaxMeyhem, is that the Cyberpunk Future has come to pass and is contunuing to come to pass. You are either simply shrugging your shoulders and/or averting your eyes. If it's mainstream popularity has waned, it is because most people want escapism or at least versimilitude, not reality.

You may be confusing my argument as being one against a distopian future. I personally am an optimist and don't believe our worst fears will come to past, but my argument is not about that. A distopian game is compelling, and one I enjoy playing. My point is that the KIND of distopian future we imagine now has changed. Which is why 80's style cyberpunk is no longer as compelling. Instead of the powers that be controlling the world through the flow of information, a different situation might occur. In our future we might be swamped in information, and our power to distinguish what is right and wrong is diminished, allowing the powers that be to cleverly pull our strings from behind the scene. Instead of attempting to manage and control our information, in a new cyberpunk future, the powers attempt to swamp us with their information (in terms of news, adds, ect...) to control us. And so on.

Lastly it's MaxMahem. The misspelling is intentional. Others in my post are probably not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Glyph]

Should I ever get around to making one, would you mind if I used that in my sig?

Go right ahead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


As far as cyberpunk predicting the future, I would say that it is like most science fiction, in that it usually reveals more about the time it was written in than it reveals about the future. Accurate speculative fiction (such as H.G. Wells writing about the moon landing) is rare. Instead, you get things like the original Star Trek, with Kirk complaining about "women ensigns" and meeting Klingons that start out looking like greasers, then like Russians. Or cyberpunk itself, with Japan as this fearsome economic monolith, when these days, we miss all of the money they used to dump into our economy.

[Wounded Ronin]

If I had unlimited money I'd open an 80s-cyberpunk-Japan themed casino in Las Vegas called Nakatomi Tower.

[DocTaotsu]

Actually Japan still is a fearsome economic monolith... it's just not the huge cultural influence we thought it was going to be. Evidently early cyberpunk authors didn't take into account how awesome Japanese tend to think American culture is. Gibson corrected himself some what but cyberpunk has an air of proto-anime fanboy written all over it.

which is fine honestly, I'm of the "Hey the setting could stand some updating" mindset but keeping a strong Japan is always one of those fun elements for me. There are still some pockets of strong ultranationalist thinking in Japan (See: The sacking of the head of the Japanese air force, and that one guy who owns all those drug stores) and like all bad ideas I'm sure all it would take is some bad financial problems and the gentle prodding of the right forces (corps trying to make a quick war buck) for that boil over into some real political momentum.

Is Japan going to invade the PI again? Probably not in this timeline but I can imagine it happening in a world where shit hit the fan come 2012.

[hobgoblin]

The other big problem is that one of the unforeseen consequences of the information revolution was a serious blow to the threat of the big brother and corporate control ideologies. In the 80s the coming information revolution seemed to make the threat of goverement control more realistic and frightening. After all only big corporations or big governments could control the 'Big Iron Mainframes' that would make such control possible. But in reality it hasn't worked out that way (at least not yet). The explosion in data that the information revolution and pervasive computing has introduced has made such 'Big Iron' style control much more difficult, and whats more means to control information has been democratized and spread out on the net to an extent that was certainly unforeseen. As was the computing power and access to information that a private citizen might controls today. Today the net is such a fractious place, and information is in such quantities and is so hard to control, that the idea of a big-brother style state or corp control us through it seems less likely as well.

And yet today more and more people sign their data over to the "cloud". Storing their contacts, schedules, photos, videos and other stuff on places like gmail, flikr, youtube and others.

The "big iron" of old may be dead, but these netbooks and so on show that "smart" terminals are coming back. Only that now they hook up to different clusters doing different things in different parts of the world.

All in all, tech have gone full circle. And the average man finds himself generating more data then he can handle on his own without making it a full time job, and using impressive amounts of cash.

Funny enough, the people may willingly hand over the data that "big brother" wants, in the same of social networking. And those that dont will find themselves outcasts, branded as paranoid or suspicious, "what do you hide? your phone is not twittering your GPS location to facebook!".

The global village have adopted this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jante_Law

Dont fear big bro, fear your companions...

[psychophipps]

One thing to keep in mind about the "fighting the man" aspect of cyberpunk is that, with the one notable exception of Hardwired, it's not some crusade against oppression and tyranny like the Communist revolts of the late 20th century...that all led to oppression and tyranny...every single time.

A lot less philosophy of "Right vs. Wrong" and a lot more "Fuck me? No, fuck you!"

[kzt]

If anything I think Napster, DMCA, and PATRIOT just serve to prove my point. 80's cyberpunk envisioned a world where these acts happened, and succeed. The information revolution was crushed, information was controlled, and people were counted and registered, or slipped out of the machine entirely. We live in a world where these acts happened, and mostly failed. Despite government and corporate attempts to stop the information revolution, it proceeds at a breakneck pace.

I saw a film by Cisco yesterday as part of presentation. They mentioned at the end that, during the time it took to watch the film, 47 americans died, 61 had been born and 647,000 songs had been illegally downloaded. The last drew laughs from the crowd of IT types.