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> Custom Traditions, Questions about choosing spirits
Neraph
post Nov 16 2008, 04:27 PM
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Now, I've looked and looked, but I've yet to find where it says you can't do this. Maybe you guys can help me.

Where exactly does it say that when you make a tradition you have to choose 5 different spirit types? From what I understand, completely by the rules you could have a tradition that only summons Beast Spirits, or Fire Spirits for Combat, but Spirits of Man for the rest of the schools of magic.
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Snow_Fox
post Nov 16 2008, 05:24 PM
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There's no reason why you can't. it does limit your shaman as he's only summoning spirits of beasts and the opposition is calling down all 5 elements, but no reason you can't.

Is there a reason you want to so limit it? For role play you might have all the spirits available but they all look the same,. for example a "chrisitan" tradition might have access to all 5 spirits BUT they always appear to the summoner like an angel, regardless of whether they are earth, air, water, etc
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Neraph
post Nov 16 2008, 05:33 PM
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Mainly to build a tradition that summons only Shadow spirits. A demonologist, or likeminded mage.
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Cabral
post Nov 16 2008, 05:45 PM
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1. Shadow Spirits are not of the normal spirits mages can summon. It's a bit like "I want to summon Mantid spirits for combat ..."

2. A demonologist can always summon standard spirits and adapt the appearance and chosen powers to his view of "demons"

3. If you're creating a custom toxic/twisted tradition, each type of Shadow spirit can be a spirit summoned for each category. If you want this to be balanced against standard traditions, you may have to curb back the Shadow Spirits.
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Snow_Fox
post Nov 16 2008, 06:07 PM
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Right, you might be summoning a normal spirit of man, but your particularly dark out look might mean you bring in spirits with a particularly nasty outlook, but they still have just the powers of any normal spirit. Of course used to dark ends that can be pretty damn unpleasant
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TheOOB
post Nov 16 2008, 06:34 PM
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The black mage tradition in SM allready summons demon-like spirits.

Really though, the real reason traditions summon 5 different types of spirits is for versitility, and a tradition really should summon five different types, especially since a spirit can look pretty much however you want(noting that some powers, like energy aura have to be represented somewhere in the spirits form).
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Stahlk├Ârper
post Nov 16 2008, 10:14 PM
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Yes, Im playing a Black Magician and she summons ie fire spirits which look like a Balrog and spirits of man which look like succubi. She believes them as different legions of hell. Spitting around fire doesnt make a spirit an elemental, does it?
btw, it is possible to give them elemental attacks other than the spirit types element. Some combinations (ie water spirit with fire attack) dont fit very well for elementals* but may be a perfect choise for demon-like spirits.

(* Actually you can explain that even for elementals. A water spirit with a fire attack may be a napalm elemental or something like that.)
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Cabral
post Nov 17 2008, 02:57 AM
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Stahlk├Ârper, try talking to your GM about switching one of your spirits, maybe fire, to Guardian spirits. A Guardian spirit can take elemental attack as optional powers (a Force 6 could have Fire & Ice in one spirit). Alternatively, you could talk to your GM about switching them on a permanent basis or rearranging the fire spirit's powers so you choose the energy aura (and other powers) when summoned as optional powers.

having versatility in the optional powers really gives you freedom in evoking the Legions of Hell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Neraph
post Nov 17 2008, 05:28 PM
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What if I don't want versatility? What if summoning only one type of spirit is all my guy needs to do? In the above Shadowmage™ example, why not make each of the 5 listed sub-categories of Shadow spirits the ones for each school of magic?

It seems like the only real reason you guys don't want this to work is because of a potential game balance issue. Any tool, in the wrong hands, is dangerous. And inversely, any tool in the right hands (or mature hands, in this case) can be used for a good story, which is the main point of Shadowrun.
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hyzmarca
post Nov 17 2008, 05:41 PM
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Shadow is not a type of spirit. Rather, is a class of Free Spirit (a Prestige Class, at that). Shadow Spirits are all members of one of the basic spirit types (or allies) who went free and eventually learned the Karma Drain power. (Alternately, they are Wild spirits who were never conjured by anyone).


You can't conjure a free spirit if you don't know its True Name.


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TheOOB
post Nov 17 2008, 06:30 PM
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If you want to play a mage who only summons one spirit type, go ahead, but any tradition is going to have 5 types. A tradition is bigger then any one magician.
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Neraph
post Nov 17 2008, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 17 2008, 12:30 PM) *
If you want to play a mage who only summons one spirit type, go ahead, but any tradition is going to have 5 types. A tradition is bigger then any one magician.


Show me in the rules where it says you have to.
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Neraph
post Nov 17 2008, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 17 2008, 11:41 AM) *
Shadow is not a type of spirit. Rather, is a class of Free Spirit (a Prestige Class, at that). Shadow Spirits are all members of one of the basic spirit types (or allies) who went free and eventually learned the Karma Drain power. (Alternately, they are Wild spirits who were never conjured by anyone).


You can't conjure a free spirit if you don't know its True Name.



Street Magic, pg. 146, Shadow Spirits: "Most are free or wild spirits..." (emphasis added).

The Shadowrun ruleset does not allow for prestige classes, as there are no classes to begin with. Shadow spirits are their own classification of spirit, as they have unique powers, and are listed in their own subsection.

If it makes you guys feel better, this is what the Tradition would look like.

Combat: Wraith
Detection: Muse
Health: Shade
Illusion: Succubus
Manipulation: Nightmare
Drain: Wil + Log

Better?
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TheOOB
post Nov 17 2008, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 17 2008, 01:42 PM) *
Street Magic, pg. 146, Shadow Spirits: "Most are free or wild spirits..." (emphasis added).

The Shadowrun ruleset does not allow for prestige classes, as there are no classes to begin with. Shadow spirits are their own classification of spirit, as they have unique powers, and are listed in their own subsection.

If it makes you guys feel better, this is what the Tradition would look like.

Combat: Wraith
Detection: Muse
Health: Shade
Illusion: Succubus
Manipulation: Nightmare
Drain: Wil + Log

Better?


Those are spirit concepts, not types. There is no spirit type succubus, a succubus is simply a spirit who drains metahuman energy via sexual acts. You could be a magician who summons spirits of man who look and act like sucubi, but they wouldn't be free/wild spirits and thus wouldn't drain energy for mortals. I once played a black mage who summoned all of their spirits as demons(female demons in fact, man=succubi, air=banshee, water=siren, ect) so I kept the creepy demonoligist feel while still staying withen the bounds of the rules.
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Muspellsheimr
post Nov 17 2008, 07:54 PM
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In comparison to the 10 existing main spirit types, how balanced do you think the following is?

F+2 Body
F Agility
F+3 Reaction
F Strength
F Charisma
F Intuition
F Logic
F Willpower
F Edge
F Magic

Skills
Assensing, Astral Combat, Con, Counterspelling, Dodge, Intimidation, Perception, Unarmed Combat
Powers
Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Influence, Magical Guard, Materialization, Sapience
Optional Powers
Compulsion, Confusion, Desire Reflection, Engulf (as Guidance spirit), Fear, Mind Link, Mutable Form, Realistic Form, Shadow Cloak, Silence
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Neraph
post Nov 17 2008, 09:06 PM
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How balanced do you think the Beast Spirit is? That's easily the most powerful core spirit.
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DireRadiant
post Nov 17 2008, 10:03 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 17 2008, 05:06 PM) *
How balanced do you think the Beast Spirit is? That's easily the most powerful core spirit.


For somethings it is. For others it isn't. If the thing it's powerful for is what you want to do then it's great. If you happen to want to do something other then what it's good at, then it isn't that great.
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Muspellsheimr
post Nov 17 2008, 10:09 PM
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The Beast spirit is okay. I still think Spirits of Man are the most powerful. Of course, I may be biased as those are also my favorite.
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Cain
post Nov 17 2008, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 17 2008, 09:28 AM) *
What if I don't want versatility? What if summoning only one type of spirit is all my guy needs to do? In the above Shadowmage™ example, why not make each of the 5 listed sub-categories of Shadow spirits the ones for each school of magic?

It seems like the only real reason you guys don't want this to work is because of a potential game balance issue. Any tool, in the wrong hands, is dangerous. And inversely, any tool in the right hands (or mature hands, in this case) can be used for a good story, which is the main point of Shadowrun.

There's no game balance issue. In fact, I can't see why you'd want to nerf yourself like that.

If you chose to be able to only summon one kind of spirit, then you lose out on all the powers the other types have to offer. With a Spirit of Man, you don't need to sustain a spell, ever. Divination is extremely powerful, but you pretty much need a Spirit of Guidance to use it without spending a metamagic on it.

Y'ever heard the phrase:"It's better to have it and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it"? Spirits have a lot to offer you, even the ordinary ones from Street Magic and the BBB. Guardian Spirits, for example, can be Invoked in such a way as to give the entire party Immunity to Normal Weapons. The best your Beast Spirit can get is Paralyzing Howl, which isn't nearly as cool.
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Neraph
post Nov 17 2008, 10:45 PM
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I'm not talking about using Beast Spirits though; I'm talking about a tradition using only Shadow Spirits. You can do it with Beast Spirits too.

Personally, I'd use Guardian Spirits FTW. They're freak-sane.

EDIT: The Shadowmage tradition was a theory for a character I'm playing in another GM's campaign that I'll be converting the group to NPC enemies in my campaign.
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Fortune
post Nov 17 2008, 10:53 PM
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Shrug. Wouldn't float in my game.
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Cabral
post Nov 18 2008, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 17 2008, 02:38 PM) *
Show me in the rules where it says you have to.

This isn't d20. It's not written for rules lawyers and rules novices alike to say here's where the rules explicitly spell it out. You won't find a lot of things in the rules, that doesn't make them kosher by default. This isn't an insult. I like d20's key-word oriented explicitness (when it works) but I don't want it in my other games.

Now, step 2 of Building a Magical Tradition states as clear as it's going to get the basic spirits you can summon. The 10 types are Air, Beast, Earth, Fire, Guardian, Guidance, Man, Plant, Task, and Water. Shadow is not listed. Shadow spirits are not modified versions of the basic types, unlike Toxics. They share more in common with Insect Spirits (also not on the menu).

You can't do it because it doesn't say you can. It also doesn't say I can't design a tradition that summons alchera instead of spirits. I can't do it because it doesn't say I can ... and because there are no rules for summoning alchera ...

Now, as to an earlier part of your question, can you choose less than 5? No. Page 169 Sr4: "Each Tradition can master five types of spirits." If you choose Beast twice, how many have you mastered in all? Four. You must choose five different spirits.

So, anyway. Sorry to come out of left field like this and tell me if I was too harsh at any point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you want a demonologist, a more appropriate (imo) avenue would be the Black Magician plus Spirit Pact (feel free to chose a Shadow Spirit then). Life Pact looks nice or maybe Power Pact with a karma cost.
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Cain
post Nov 18 2008, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 17 2008, 02:45 PM) *
I'm not talking about using Beast Spirits though; I'm talking about a tradition using only Shadow Spirits. You can do it with Beast Spirits too.

Personally, I'd use Guardian Spirits FTW. They're freak-sane.

EDIT: The Shadowmage tradition was a theory for a character I'm playing in another GM's campaign that I'll be converting the group to NPC enemies in my campaign.

Somebody borrowed my copy of Street Magic, but isn't there a Faustian tradition? One that has access to shadow spirits? If that's listed as NPC-only, then you can't get it as a PC.
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TheOOB
post Nov 18 2008, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 17 2008, 11:50 PM) *
Somebody borrowed my copy of Street Magic, but isn't there a Faustian tradition? One that has access to shadow spirits? If that's listed as NPC-only, then you can't get it as a PC.


Faustian is one of the sub-types of twisted magician, which have no game mechanics change from normal magicians, though their spirits tend to be actively malevolent and resist binding more. They are not suggested for players, but since their is no rules baggage you can play them if your GM lets you.

That said, twisted mages do not have access to shadow spirits, just mean nasty versions of normal spirits. There is no reference in street magic to any shadow mages who summon shadow spirits, hell there isn't even rules for shadow spirits, just the note that many of them have the energy drain power.
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Cabral
post Nov 18 2008, 04:16 AM
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Rules (Guidelines) for Shadow Spirits oare on pages 147-148 with stats being on page 148. (Note by the way, the difference in the stats compared to normal spirits ... no Optional Powers.)
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