BP's vs Karmagen Options

[Tyro]

I have a general idea, but I'm only a beginning Dumpshocker. What are the pros and cons of each? I've noticed that I tend to be able to do more with Karmagen, give my characters more capabilities; is it like that across the board, or is it just better for the types of characters I build?

I'm especially interested in good, solid arguments designed to get a GM to allow Karmagen-made characters.

Thanks in advance!

[Stahlseele]

there are no real pro's to the build point system, other than it being more or less easy to calculate the points needed for anything.
all other pros are solely with the karma system, especially as things like free spirit or something like that does not cost you points like it does with the BP system.
furthermore due to the usage of karma, you're using the same system in char gen and later in game to grow, so there's no big difference suddenly

[awolfromlife]

KarmaGen is good for the high BP cost metatypes in Runner's Companion.
KarmaGen is good for characters with a wide skill choice
KarmaGen makes it kinda difficult to make characters with maxed out stats or skills

I.E I am making a AI character and it was a HUGE pain with the BP system in BBB. With KarmaGen I was able to do just about everything I wanted to with it with little compromise.

[krayola red]

Technically, BP is supposed to encourage specialization whereas karmagen is more friendly towards generalists. But honestly, I think karmagen is even more prone to min-maxing due to the rather silly way it handles metatypes. The most effective character in karmagen is a troll with 1s in Body and Strength, though that's not counting the crazy stuff like drakes and AIs and vampires.

[Muspellsheimr]

Build Point Generation
Pros
Linear cost makes calculations easy.
Cons
Due to scaling cost of character advancement, the linear costs of generation strongly encourage min/maxing.

Karma Generation
Pros
Identical system to character advancement eliminates min/maxing.
Encourages characters with broad range of skills.
Cons
Lack of free Knowledge skills creates characters who know very little.
No cost for playing higher-powered metatypes creates blatant & obvious imbalances.

Notes:
The developers claim that the cost of playing a metatype comes in the higher costs for increasing attributes. This is false, as I have mathematically shown multiple times. Trolls are more powerful than Humans - no debating it. Under Build Point generation, they pay for this advantage. Under Karma, they gain it for free.

750 Karma creates characters roughly the equivalent of 500 Build Points.


Overall, I strongly advise using the Build Point character generation over the Runners Companion Karma Generation. That being said, I do greatly prefer Karma Generation; the published version simply has far to many flaws to be of any use. I have my own Karma Generation system that I would suggest using. I will post it later, once I have located the file.

Notes about my personal Karma Generation:
It uses a revision of character attribute advancement. The cost is increased to New Rating x 5, so that skill groups can compete. Further, it is intended to be calculated before racial adjustments. This means it costs more for a Troll to increase it's Logic, & advances its Body on the Human's 1-6 scale, with +4 applied after. Because the entire point of Karma Generation is for a unified creation/advancement system, these changes should be made to post-generation advancement as well.

The system creates characters roughly the equivalent of 400 Build Points, sometimes slightly less due to increased Attribute costs. The characters will also usually possess more Knowledge skills than the Build Point generation.

[Whipstitch]

I'm probably just going to stick with priority in my games. At least it's fast.

[Cain]

Karmagen does *not* discourage min/maxing. In fact, it makes it worse. See Glyph's new version of the Pornomancer for an example-- he went up to 51 dice in Seduction.

[Muspellsheimr]

Cain, that is powergaming, not min/maxing. Min/maxing is where you optimize character generation/advancement costs. It is where you max out your Trolls Body & softmax Strength because it is cheaper with Build Points, leaving your Charisma & Logic at 1 because they are cheaper to increase with Karma.

[Cain]

Cain, that is powergaming, not min/maxing. Min/maxing is where you optimize character generation/advancement costs. It is where you max out your Trolls Body & softmax Strength because it is cheaper with Build Points, leaving your Charisma & Logic at 1 because they are cheaper to increase with Karma.

We could go around for weeks on definitions, here. In my book, min/maxing is minimizing your weaknesses while maximizing your strengths. Even using both definitions, the Pornomancer is min/maxed, because you have to do a hell of a lot of optimizing to get to that level. Everyone's going to define these terms slightly differently.

In the meanwhile, can we agree that karmagen does *not* discourage overpowered characters, and in some cases makes them worse?

[TheOOB]

The karma gen system just takes the min out of min/maxing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Anyways, I personally prefer the karma gen system, but I do it under the explicit house rule that metatype and racial BP costs convert over to karma costs. I don't think it's fair to double metatype costs like everything else(a troll should be able to get a high body and strength for less investment then a human), but there needs to be some cost associated with the metatype to make up for the fact that there is some advantages.

Basically, if you fix the metatype costs, the big difference between the two systems is that the BP system encourages you to either min or max everything(either a 1 or a 5 in attributes, 0 or 4 in skills,ect), while the karma system doesn't penalize you for spreading out your skills a little and having lots of attributes/skills in the middle ranges.

[Cthulhudreams]

Build Point Generation
Pros
Linear cost makes calculations easy.
Cons
Due to scaling cost of character advancement, the linear costs of generation strongly encourage min/maxing.

Karma Generation
Pros
Identical system to character advancement eliminates min/maxing.
Encourages characters with broad range of skills.
Cons
Lack of free Knowledge skills creates characters who know very little.
No cost for playing higher-powered metatypes creates blatant & obvious imbalances.

I love that the weakness with the BP system is actually a weakness with the karma system, or heck, just the attempt to feebly mash two systems together badly.

Karmagen is crap, BP can be easily rescued and many of the problems avoided by a few simple changes

1) Give people BP instead of karma for progress, and let them advance with BP

2) Halve the price of skills across the board

3) ??? (Okay actually just translate things that can be brought with 'karma only' i.e. initiation straight across to a BP cost. The huge discount they are getting on points of magic past 6 makes up for the cost increases on initiation)

4) Profit from a well balanced advancement system!

Its really not very hard. I have no idea why BP advancement wasn't in Runners Companion. It makes the BP system much more robust and improves other facets - like removing the 1 or 5 tendency in stats that is created by the knowledge you are going to karmagen. In BP only, a 3 suddenly becomes a very valid choice.

So yeah, karma advancement is dumb and karmageneration is worse as it makes hugely overpowered characters consistently, because its presented as being on par with 400 BP, when it patently isn't.

[Muspellsheimr]

Cain, the Karma generation does not encourage overpowered characters any more than ~500 Build Points. Characters built with 750 Karma will always be more powerful by far than the equivalent built with 400 Build Points.

[Muspellsheimr]

I love that the weakness with the BP system is actually a weakness with the karma system, or heck, just the attempt to feebly mash two systems together badly.

Karmagen is crap, BP can be easily rescued and many of the problems avoided by a few simple changes

1) Give people BP instead of karma for progress, and let them advance with BP

2) Halve the price of skills across the board

3) ??? (Okay actually just translate things that can be brought with 'karma only' i.e. initiation straight across to a BP cost. The huge discount they are getting on points of magic past 6 makes up for the cost increases on initiation)

4) Profit from a well balanced advancement system!

Its really not very hard. I have no idea why BP advancement wasn't in Runners Companion.

Care to explain how I listed a weakness in Build Points as the same weakness in Karma?

I hate Trollmans advancement system for multiple reasons, & would not suggest it. I may elaborate later when I have time.

[Cthulhudreams]

I thought it was obvious

Cons
Due to scaling cost of character advancement, the linear costs of generation strongly encourage min/maxing.

Let me re-write your point here, substituting 'scaling costs of character advancement' for 'the karma system' and 'linear costs of generation' for the BP system, as that is what you are referring to.

So we have

Due to the karma system, the BP system encourages min/maxing

Which is about as clear a statement as you can get to the root of the problem - its the karma system, not the BP system.

[toturi]

Comparing BP to Karmagen

1) BP has a (mostly) linear cost progression. Karmagen cost has an geometric progression. But geometric costs do not exceed the 1 BP : 2 karma ratio until 7. And this drawback is mostly moot because of the saving accrued from karmagen's free racial costs.

2) Karmagen has no free Knowledge skills, hence very few Karmagen characters even have Knowledge skills. This places greater emphasis on Contacts. Which may or may not be a good thing.

The most effective character in karmagen is a troll with 1s in Body and Strength, though that's not counting the crazy stuff like drakes and AIs and vampires.

Not exactly true. Drakes and Vampires in karmagen cost a lot (dracomorphs and infection are not racial costs). In fact, I have an Infected build that costs more in karmagen than in BP.

[Ancient History]

Notes:
The developers claim that the cost of playing a metatype comes in the higher costs for increasing attributes. This is false, as I have mathematically shown multiple times. Trolls are more powerful than Humans - no debating it. Under Build Point generation, they pay for this advantage. Under Karma, they gain it for free.

Clarification: a freelancer (me, who happened to write the damn'd thing) claims that the cost of playing a metatype comes in to the higher costs for attributes over 6, because of a general understanding of play psychology.

Muspellsheimr has made the observation that metahuman characters who choose to have exceptionally low attributes can be construed to have a comparative advantage over human characters in most cases because of the metahuman attribute modifiers. Which is totally true as long as you consider humans as your default or baseline (and, since this is purely mathematical, ignoring all the real reasons players might want to play a given metatype) and don't mind playing the weakest metahumans in the universe to prove the point.

[Cain]

Cain, the Karma generation does not encourage overpowered characters any more than ~500 Build Points. Characters built with 750 Karma will always be more powerful by far than the equivalent built with 400 Build Points.

Which in itself is a problem. 400 BP is enough to break the system, so 750 karma makes it even worse. Even at a lower karma total, you can create absurdly overpowered characters in karmagen. If anything, it forces them to become more one-dimensional than before.

[ElFenrir]

Personally, I'm all for Karmagen, and we started using it exclusively. We like the fact that it leads toward more rounded, believable characters. Is it because it gives you a little more to work with? Perhaps, but we aren't as worried about the ''whys'' as we are with the result. The result is more balanced, believable characters with realistic ratings in their attributes and skills(for us), and it's enough.

BPs tend to be faster, though, IMO(though still a bit time consuming), and I might use them for someone very new to the game. I don't hate BP or anything, but I just have a preference for Karmagen.

Here are little things I notice BP leaning toward the min-maxing:

-Heavy use of soft-max. Because it costs a lot to max an attribute under BP(easily enough houseruled away, to be fair-we lowered the cost ourselves), folks might not want to max one-even if it makes sense for their character. Their ''Super-Ultra-Genius Dwarf Inventor whose a Super Genius'' might end up with a 5 logic(while genius, a bit below the above description-or, if they got a +1 Logic Max through qualities or whatnot, a 6-either way, 1 right below the max), just because ''they don't want to pay the 25 BP to max it, and it's only going to cost 18 in the game, and that 25 BP is worth a lot more here.'' Under Karmagen? Sure, the limit of 1 attribute at the max to start is still there, but he might well start with his max logic, because it's going to cost the same anyway in game to do it. Basically, it encourages picking the stats that fit, and you also see far fewer anemic people who can't tie their shoes due to Strength ''not being used very often and it's a waste of 10 BP atm and I can buy it for 6 karma in the game.''

On the other hand, skills are cheap to buy in game at a low level; for example, it costs 8 Karma to buy a rating 2 skill. Now, it costs 8 BP, as well. But...it costs 12 Karma to buy the 5 they have to a 6. Soo...they don't have any other 5's...why not save karma and just get the 6 now? They can get the 2 soon enough.

This is what I see often with BPs.

[Soft-maxing, btw, is when you take something to one under the max.]

Now, I'm not saying Karmagen is perfect; it does run into the ''metahumans leaning toward the better choice'' bit-but this is only something you have to worry about when you're dealing with people who only pick things ''because the numbers are the best.'' If you deal with folks who play races because they like them and they fit, this is no worry. But it's something to keep in mind, and it is one of the flaws of the system; but since our table doesn't really have to deal with this, it doesn't really bother us.

It's other drawback is that it's rather math intensive.

As for people having less knowledges? I found the opposite happening. I find that folks tend to go somewhat heavier on the knowledge skills-they might be at a lower level(2-3) but I notice a lot more. In characters that we converted over, each and every one of them ended up with more knowledge skills. Again, this might be down with specific players, though. Folks who want to squeeze every last point out of being the best shooter/jumper/talker/present wrapper/cab driver will try to do it regardless of the system you use. If the city's best super cab driver forgets to take knowledge skills of the city because they were twinking out another point of Pilot Ground Craft, that's on them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not exactly true. Drakes and Vampires in karmagen cost a lot (dracomorphs and infection are not racial costs). In fact, I have an Infected build that costs more in karmagen than in BP.

Very true. After finding out that info here, my Vampire ended up pretty strapped at the end for Karma. 200 Karma(remember it's BP cost x 2 in karma) is a LOT to drop in. [Oddly enough, Shapeshifters are considered a race-and thus get their things free. I honestly don't think this is an outright flaw with the WHOLE karma system, but it's...just...odd why you have to pay for some things and not others.] Slapping an ordinary cost onto metahumans with the karmagen had it's own flaw, I recall, however-I just can't remember it(though I suppose you could say just pay BP costx2 in Karma and call it a day if it really bothers you that metas cost something.) I considered, actually, trying the thing used for Shapeshifters who can change into another meta form-they pay the BP cost -10. In karmagen, this would be BP cost of race -10x2. So Orks would be 20, Elves 40, Dwarves 30, and Trolls 60. It's a bit more reasonable, but the cost is still there.

So yeah, didn't want to confuse the OP. But I personally say Karmagen creates the characters we like to see a bit more at our table.

[toturi]

Clarification: a freelancer (me, who happened to write the damn'd thing) claims that the cost of playing a metatype comes in to the higher costs for attributes over 6. Muspellsheimr hasn't mathematically disproved this like he claims, he just repeatedly makes the observation that metahuman characters who choose to have exceptionally low attributes can be construed to have a comparative advantage over human characters in most cases because of the metahuman attribute modifiers. Which is totally true as long as you consider humans as your default or baseline (and, since this is purely mathematical, ignoring all the real reasons players might want to play a given metatype).

What reasons may be considered to be real enough for players to play a given metatype, if not mathematical?

From 2-6, you pay more in BPs per point increase than in karma (given an exchange of 1BP for 2 karma). Even at 7-8 you still come out ahead, given that there is still a net saving to use karma instead of BP. Say you have a +3 to Attribute (which is, frankly, at least equal or more than many of the racial bonus excepting trolls), you start at 4. So 5,6, you get savings of 5,2. At 7,8, you have a loss of 1,4. You still have a net saving of 2 karma over and beyond the savings from free metatype.

In order to have metatype cost come into play, you need to start with at least Attribute 5 or 6 which means trolls. And frankly an attribute of 5-6 is only an exceptionally low attribute when compared to trolls. Compared with elves and humans, or even orcs and dwarves, 5-6 is not a low attribute.

[Glyph]

I think Cain hit the nail on the head with something he said in another thread:

However, I think the only reason karmagen encourages versatility is because it gives you more to play with. You can create a character that's twinked out and has good stats in a lot of other areas. Basically, it just shows that the more you give a player, the less he'll feel the need to munchkinize.

I think that summarizes karmagen pretty well right there. It unquestionably makes more powerful characters, but those characters tend to be less min-maxed, because they don't have to be. I mean, face it, a lot of players have the natural urge to start out with a character who is as good as he can be at his specialty.

When you have to scrimp to get your main stats to where you want them, you might take dump stats and extra flaws. When you have your main stats where you want them, and have points left over, that's when you start thinking "Maybe I could make him good at sneaking, and good at riding a bike. Or maybe I can give him the artisan skill, and say that he likes hand-carving the wood handles of his knives. Or maybe he can get the Influence group, and be a semi-face"

Personally, though, I also think you get similar "advantages" with things like a 500 BP game. But characters built this way look more like shadowrunners - really good at what they do, with a wide spread of secondary skills. Karmagen is suited for games like that - moderately powerful ones. It is only good for lower-powered games with extremely cooperative players. The problem with lowering the allotment of Karma points is that doing so makes the free metatype even more of an advantage.

[Ancient History]

What reasons may be considered to be real enough for players to play a given metatype, if not mathematical?

Character concept.

[hobgoblin]

ugh, this reads like people discussing characters on a mmorpg forum, and i forgot my lingo dictionary...

[Muspellsheimr]

I am not going to get into this with you again Ancient, so I will briefly sum it up for Tyro.

Ancient assumes every metatype character will increase their attribute above what a Human is capable of, because he believes that is what they should do.

I believe that has jack shit to do with game mechanics or balance - a 6 Body is the same as a 6 Body, regardless of how you obtain it. It costs a Human a lot more to obtain that than a Troll, & the Human does not have the option of increasing it even further as the Troll does. As such, a Troll should pay for this advantage, & under the Build Point system, does. In Karma generation, there is no cost, & thus they get +4 Strength and +4 Body for free.

[Muspellsheimr]

I thought it was obvious



Let me re-write your point here, substituting 'scaling costs of character advancement' for 'the karma system' and 'linear costs of generation' for the BP system, as that is what you are referring to.

So we have



Which is about as clear a statement as you can get to the root of the problem - its the karma system, not the BP system.

That is absurd beyond belief. All you did was support my position. The flaw is using a linear character generation system & scaling advancement. As Karma character advancement is the advancement system in the game, this is a flaw with Build Point character generation.

[Ancient History]

Stop being doofish, Musp. I'm not saying every player should max out an attribute, but they should have the option to do it without completely screwing over their character.

And yeah, it should be easier for a troll to get Body 6 than a human. It's a friggin' troll! Half the point of eliminating metatype costs is so that you can play what you want.