BP's vs Karmagen Options

[Falconer]

This again, and once again Ancient comes out w/ the 'it's all about the RP' defense.

We should just remove dice alltogether from the system. Everything is then resolved by mutual play acting and storytelling! Then it's all about the free form RP of course.... Nothing should cost anything at all, so long as it's RP related....

I LIKE karmagen, great idea that it should cost the same to make a character as advance a character. I HATE the IDIOTIC way it was implemented.

Dicepools matter.. If X has a bigger dicepool w/o paying for it... it becomes a problem. Especially in public games (say at a convention or online).

The problems w/ the system are basically... broken meta costs. (on many fronts)

No penalty cost for penalized stats. (it costs me just as much to make a troll of average log/int as a human of average log/int, and to make matters worse... the troll benefits just as much OR MORE from reduced costs for dump stats, since the troll would run into the hard cap cost on something like charisma much faster under BP. It should either cost more to advance, or have a penalty applied after buy.

Attributes are far more valuable to skills. An attribute raise increases a lot of different skill pools, while a skill raise only affects one. Attribute raises are almost always a better buy than skill raises under the system. (especially once you get that 1st rank to avoid defaulting, specialize it, or get 2 ranks for those wierd things which increase skill pools by max of 50% round down).

Much higher spending caps on attributes for metas, while compressing more attributes into base humans... Metas end up being either best deal packages on enhanced attribute caps (if used), or freebie karma dump stats (if not used). 375 cap spread across 10 attributes (including special edge and mag which would normally be done seperate). While an elf could spend 435 on the same 10. (basic cost to go from 1->5 is 42karma... so 435 is theoretcially enough to go straight 5's not including pre-raised stats).

Generally the system breaks down when you try and do trolls. Trolls and to a lesser extent orcs are where you get problems in the system. Because they have those sky high base attributes in bod & str. Generally I feel this would have been less of a problem if str/bod would have been kept a single attribute rather than split into two. (str being the biggest dump stat right now, while bod is fairly valuable for soak, but niether have a lot of linked skills)

[Cain]

Because the Karma system unfairly punishes you for taking high stats. High strength in particular is a high cost / low reward points sink.

There are a variety of measures to deal with that, but the one that the author elected to go with was making the race 'free' on the assumption that you'd be taking high stats.

The system unfairly punishes *humans* for having high attributes. You can still easily get high stats on a metahuman. As Glyph pointed out, it costs less for a troll to raise his body to 7 than it does for a human to raise his to 6. Under point-buy, that's fine-- the troll paid something for that advantage. Under karmagen, he gets it for free.

Personally, I'm thinking about tossing the starting skill and attribute caps altogether, and just going with dice pool caps. Someone can have two, three, or more skills at 6, under either system. You can spend as much as you like on attributes. This won't really change anything, except maybe make characters a bit more generalized: once they hit the cap, there's no incentive to push things.

[krayola red]

The problem with general dice pool caps is that it encourages a different breed of min-maxing, where you pay for the lowest attributes and skills possible and raise it up to the cap with karma-free bonus dice, like the smartlink +2 for firearms. It does curtail hardcore power gamers, but it also nerfs regular specialists who are just good at what they do.

I'm thinking about a system where instead of dice pool caps, you cap the amount of bonus dice you can receive for any task to no greater than the natural skill level of the character, with bonus dice being defined as anything beyond Attribute + Skill. That way, you can crunch down on the number crunchers but you won't penalize someone for playing a character who does their thing at an elite level.

[MaxMahem]

My solution is to instead apply escalating costs to the BP system.

Under my system you get the first rank for free, then have to pay 5BP x (rank-1) for each increase. Thus:

CODE

RANK COST TOTAL
1    0    0
2    5    5
3    10   15
4    15   30
5    20   50
6    25   75

A slight discount for average stats, but an increase cost for above average stats. In most cases the total BP expenditure for the same stats remains the same. I am still considering if I should apply this cost system to magic or not.

Racial bonuses are applied afterwords. So an Ork with a +2 bonus to Strength, still pays 15 points total for a STR of 5 (5 for a STR of 4, 10 for a STR of 5).

Racial penalties move the cost up a step for each level (the first rank remains free). Mathmaticaly: Cost = 5BP x (rank - 1 + penalty). Thus, a Troll (with a -2 penalty to charisma) pays 15BP for his first point of Charisma. Or 10BP for his first point of Logic. Increasing normally there after.

Racial BP cost remain unchanged (though I give humans a +1 bonus to one mental stat to even things out a bit, screw the elves).

Skills are half price until risen over the level of the attribute, then priced as normal.

[Cthulhudreams]

The system unfairly punishes *humans* for having high attributes. You can still easily get high stats on a metahuman. As Glyph pointed out, it costs less for a troll to raise his body to 7 than it does for a human to raise his to 6. Under point-buy, that's fine-- the troll paid something for that advantage. Under karmagen, he gets it for free.

Personally, I'm thinking about tossing the starting skill and attribute caps altogether, and just going with dice pool caps. Someone can have two, three, or more skills at 6, under either system. You can spend as much as you like on attributes. This won't really change anything, except maybe make characters a bit more generalized: once they hit the cap, there's no incentive to push things.

We're talking about two different points

A) Due to the scaling points cost of the karma system, having high stats makes you shit. Consider a human with strength 6 , vs a human with body 4. Okay he gets 2 extra dice to soak.. but that cost 33 karma. Not cheap. And thats hardly the extreme version. Lets consider a troll with strength 8 vs a troll with strength 10

You paid.. 57 karma for those 2 points of strength. That is enough to buy another stat from 1 -> 6 and have points left over. That is expensive as.

Thats what I'm talking about

You're talking about

B) Elves being straight up better than humans at everything for free under karma gen.

Okay that is an issue, but please don't confuse it with the first issue.

The problem with the AH solution is that by attempting to solve problem A by introducing problem B you've actually just created a second issue that doesn't really address the fact that taking high stats is bad in the first place.

Which is why despite the huge bonuses handed out a high strength/high body troll is still terrible under karma gen, and the dominating force is like a formai with astral hazing or some shit.

[sk8bcn]

Ok, I don't have played SR4 yet but:

That's my proposition how to calculate a cost for attributes modifier under a karma system:

Calculate how many karma points would be requiered for a human to have 4 everywhere. That's your base (X pts)

Take the racial modifiers, apply them to a 4 everywhere base. Calculate how many points a human would need to reach those stats (Y pts). Substract X to this number. That's the racial modifier charge.

Modifiers, then, of course, apply after the pts expenditure.

Exemple: let's say you pay [new score] pts and there's 3 stats:
For a human having 4 everywhere, it's (1+2+3+4)*3=30pts
Let's say the metavariant has a +2,-1, so a 6,3,4 statline, so (1+2+3+4+5+6)+(1+2+3)+(1+2+3+4)=37pts.

So the metavariant is charged with 7 points. And it would basically cost the same for him to be a strong troll, than for a human to be a strong human.

Add modifier to this costs:
-Estimate natural Advantage: Low light vision? +X points
-Estimate disadvange: 3m tall so really noticeable: -Y pts

Add optionnally rarity modifier: Very rare: +X points



I find Ancient point of view rather strange. Actually, I know games where dev's unbalance races because they are cool (Nightprowler in french says this and really for this reason!).

However, I hardly buy your argument. There's no point in a complex system if this aren't fair and balanced. Why bother learning complex rules with many calculations if in the end, it can be broken so easily?

[toturi]

The problem with general dice pool caps is that it encourages a different breed of min-maxing, where you pay for the lowest attributes and skills possible and raise it up to the cap with karma-free bonus dice, like the smartlink +2 for firearms. It does curtail hardcore power gamers, but it also nerfs regular specialists who are just good at what they do.

I'm thinking about a system where instead of dice pool caps, you cap the amount of bonus dice you can receive for any task to no greater than the natural skill level of the character, with bonus dice being defined as anything beyond Attribute + Skill. That way, you can crunch down on the number crunchers but you won't penalize someone for playing a character who does their thing at an elite level.

Again your solution simply encourages a different breed of min-maxing. It only changes the type of the number crunching to a number crunching acceptable to you.

[Cain]

The problem with general dice pool caps is that it encourages a different breed of min-maxing, where you pay for the lowest attributes and skills possible and raise it up to the cap with karma-free bonus dice, like the smartlink +2 for firearms. It does curtail hardcore power gamers, but it also nerfs regular specialists who are just good at what they do.

I'm thinking about a system where instead of dice pool caps, you cap the amount of bonus dice you can receive for any task to no greater than the natural skill level of the character, with bonus dice being defined as anything beyond Attribute + Skill. That way, you can crunch down on the number crunchers but you won't penalize someone for playing a character who does their thing at an elite level.

The thing is, even regular specialists need reasonable caps on their dice pools, before they become stupidly powerful. A specialist with 20 dice is seduction is quite powerful, but not game breaking. A pornomancer, with 51 dice in seduction, *is* game breaking. You're not nerfing anyone if you set your dice pools to the right levels. It also helps newer players see where you expect their dice pools to be at: if you cap combat dice pools at 15, then new players will strive for 15, while experienced ones will stop there.

Your suggestion has merit, but it also makes Adepts ungodly powerful. With their ability to have virtual skill increases, they'll end up with significantly higher dice pools. Additionally, you'd be making skills much more powerful than ever before, and you'll see a lot more characters with low attributes/high skills, so they can gain the bonus dice.

We're talking about two different points

A) Due to the scaling points cost of the karma system, having high stats makes you shit. Consider a human with strength 6 , vs a human with body 4. Okay he gets 2 extra dice to soak.. but that cost 33 karma. Not cheap. And thats hardly the extreme version. Lets consider a troll with strength 8 vs a troll with strength 10

You paid.. 57 karma for those 2 points of strength. That is enough to buy another stat from 1 -> 6 and have points left over. That is expensive as.

Thats what I'm talking about

Trolls essentially get Str 1-5 for free, so that pretty much negates your 57 karma payout. And you get a higher attribute to boot. Basically, it costs a human more to raise Body and Str to 5 than a troll, which is where a human gets punished. Humans can't even raise their strength to 10 without pulling some fancy chargen tricks.

[Aaron]

What would be a good way to tweak Karmagen so the character it made was equivalent to a 400 BP character? Could you just reduce the Karma given, or is that too simplistic?

Well, there's this break-down of "karmagen" costs for the 400 BP sample characters from SR4, for what that's worth.

[krayola red]

The thing is, even regular specialists need reasonable caps on their dice pools, before they become stupidly powerful. A specialist with 20 dice is seduction is quite powerful, but not game breaking. A pornomancer, with 51 dice in seduction, *is* game breaking. You're not nerfing anyone if you set your dice pools to the right levels. It also helps newer players see where you expect their dice pools to be at: if you cap combat dice pools at 15, then new players will strive for 15, while experienced ones will stop there.

Your suggestion has merit, but it also makes Adepts ungodly powerful. With their ability to have virtual skill increases, they'll end up with significantly higher dice pools. Additionally, you'd be making skills much more powerful than ever before, and you'll see a lot more characters with low attributes/high skills, so they can gain the bonus dice.

Hmm. If it's restricted to natural skill level, Adepts won't have an advantage because Improved Ability creates a modified skill rating. Lemme run some numbers here with Pistols as an example. Let's say bonus dice cannot exceed natural skill. An elf with Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude can have an Agility of 10 and a skill of 7. Add 7 more points on to that, and you have a maximum possible dice pool of 24. That's a pretty frickin' huge dice pool, but I think that as the maximum a character can possibly have, it ain't gamebreaking. There's absolutely no way to make a pornomancer with 51 dice under this restriction. Essentially, it's the same as capping dice pools, except the cap scales with your skill level, so there's still a reason to take high skills.

Anyhoo, I don't think any system would end up with characters with low attributes and high skills, for the simple reason that attributes are so much more cost effective compared to skills no matter how you shake it.

Again your solution simply encourages a different breed of min-maxing. It only changes the type of the number crunching to a number crunching acceptable to you.

Well duh, that's the whole point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I don't have any problems with number crunching itself, especially since I like to do it myself. What I have a problem with is the kind of number crunching that ends up in the creation of characters that I find to be ridiculous. Instead of saying to a player "nah you can't play that," I would rather modify the system so that it's impossible to create a character that I wouldn't allow a player to play.

[Cthulhudreams]

Trolls essentially get Str 1-5 for free, so that pretty much negates your 57 karma payout. And you get a higher attribute to boot. Basically, it costs a human more to raise Body and Str to 5 than a troll, which is where a human gets punished. Humans can't even raise their strength to 10 without pulling some fancy chargen tricks.

Argh, you're conflating the two issues still. Imagine this was a character made with BP Gen and then advanced with karma. Imagine it was a fish. I don't care. Advancing from 8->10 is a dumb idea.

Trolls being free (which is terrible I agree, I said that when the book came out) has nothing at all to do with the fact that advancing 8 -> 10 is a bad idea.

[Cain]

Lemme run some numbers here with Pistols as an example. Let's say bonus dice cannot exceed natural skill. An elf with Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude can have an Agility of 10 and a skill of 7. Add 7 more points on to that, and you have a maximum possible dice pool of 24. That's a pretty frickin' huge dice pool, but I think that as the maximum a character can possibly have, it ain't gamebreaking. There's absolutely no way to make a pornomancer with 51 dice under this restriction. Essentially, it's the same as capping dice pools, except the cap scales with your skill level, so there's still a reason to take high skills.

But the problem is that again, you've crossed the breaking point. The game breaks down once you exceed 20 dice. At 21 dice, you can expect 7 successes, while Joe Average can only expect 2. That gives you a constant critical success over him, with plenty of margin for error. By default, Joe Average with a gun in Shadowrun is supposed to be a credible threat. In fact, at 24 dice, you can simply *buy* 6 successes, more than enough to hit and kill Joe Average every single time. (Yes, I know you can't normally buy successes in combat.) If you don't want to or are not allowed to buy the 6 successes, you'll just have to content yourself with the 8 successes you can expect to roll.

So, 24 dice is too much, even for an opposed test like Combat. For an unopposed test, it's even worse. Fortunately, there's fewer dice pool inflaters for most noncombat tests.

[krayola red]

I don't really see much of a difference between 20 and 24 dice. Is there a reason you picked 20 as the magic number?

I think the fact that Joe Average with a gun isn't a threat in SR4 has much more to do with other aspects of the combat system than how much dice you can throw. Someone throwing 20 dice can smoke Joe just as easily as someone with 24 dice.

Keep in mind that to gain 24 dice, you have to take two qualities that are, frankly, way overpriced. The maximum number of dice a truly min-maxed character would have is 22.

[Glyph]

Also, if you are facing Joe Average from close range, with perfect visibility, with no wounds or fatigue, and with neither of you moving, then you should blow him away. You should blow away Joe Super under those circumstances. That 24 dice assumes no penalties, which should be a very, very, very rare thing in Shadowrun combat.

[Cain]

I don't really see much of a difference between 20 and 24 dice. Is there a reason you picked 20 as the magic number?

Yeah, experience (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . 20 dice is very powerful, but for some reason, 21 tips it over the top. With 6 successes, you're not going to hit Joe Average if he makes a lucky dodge (all 6 dice coming up successes). With 7, you're guaranteed to hit. Because everything works by threes, completing that next triad seems to make a huge difference.

And to address Glyph's point, when you have 10 dice or so, you're very skilled and unlikely to miss. The problem is that at 21+ dice, you can take a whopping -10 to your roll, and still have 10+ dice to throw. That means you're still likely to hit, even while standing on your head and singing the Scottish National Anthem.

[krayola red]

I dunno, unless you allow your players to buy hits, one die isn't gonna automatically make you succeed at something. Also, Joe Average does not have 6 dice to dodge. Joe Average has 3 dice to dodge, which means his ass is getting burned even with all the luck in the world.

Seriously though, if that's your beef, instead of capping dice pools, I would just go play SR3. SR4 is a superhero game, stuff like that is bound to happen. I've toyed around with the idea of variable TNs at 5, 6, and 10, and every x points of modifiers increasing your TN by 1 rank, but the system I've got so far is pretty messy and arbitrary, so I don't really want to use it.

[krayola red]

Also, I've discovered that while it seems to be a lot easier to hit things in SR4, it's a lot harder to kill things in one hit, so Joe would probably have a chance to shoot back/say a prayer/pee his pants at least once before he gets ganked.

[Cain]

Seriously though, if that's your beef, instead of capping dice pools, I would just go play SR3. SR4 is a superhero game, stuff like that is bound to happen. I've toyed around with the idea of variable TNs at 5, 6, and 10, and every x points of modifiers increasing your TN by 1 rank, but the system I've got so far is pretty messy and arbitrary, so I don't really want to use it.

Don't tempt me. The issue here is that SR4 was specifically released to be more "street level" and "gritty". I can create more abusive characters in SR4 than I ever could in SR3. But I forget that we're not allowed to compare editions, so I'm going to drop that right now.

The point is, I want to play Shadowrun. And currently, the only supported Shadowrun line is the SR4 line. That doesn't mean it's especially good at what it sets out to do, but it does mean it's the only game in town.

Also, I've discovered that while it seems to be a lot easier to hit things in SR4, it's a lot harder to kill things in one hit, so Joe would probably have a chance to shoot back/say a prayer/pee his pants at least once before he gets ganked.

That's why you get a second shot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) :

[MaxMahem]

Don't tempt me. The issue here is that SR4 was specifically released to be more "street level" and "gritty". I can create more abusive characters in SR4 than I ever could in SR3. But I forget that we're not allowed to compare editions, so I'm going to drop that right now.

The point is, I want to play Shadowrun. And currently, the only supported Shadowrun line is the SR4 line. That doesn't mean it's especially good at what it sets out to do, but it does mean it's the only game in town.

What a load of crap. Basically what you say is oh yeah, SR4 sucks compared to SR3, but were not allowed to compare editions. So I'm going to take my one cheap shot and run away.

If you want to compare the editions do it. Don't just throw out crappy unsupported 1 liners and then claim to abandon the debate based upon some supposed rule.

[hobgoblin]

cain's been slapped around before because of flamewars on this forum related to SR4 bad, SR3 good comments...

[Fortune]

And yet that doesn't seem to stop him from taking cheap shots, and then immediately retreating behind the supposed moratorium on edition comparisons to avoid backing up or supporting his comments.

[toturi]

And yet that doesn't seem to stop him from taking cheap shots, and then immediately retreating behind the supposed moratorium on edition comparisons to avoid backing up or supporting his comments.

Cheap shots can only be cheap if they actually have a point.

[ElFenrir]

Again, while I am one of those folks that doesn't mind the metas not costing...there is one aspect, looking at it again, that I do somewhat disagree with-the fact they need more attribute points. Honestly, I think 375 across the board is just fine. I did a few calculations here, and honestly, any meta spending 375 suits them up just fine-even if they have magic. (This also assumes you spend the full half. Honestly, I think out of all of the karmagen guys I have, I think I might have spent all of the allowed points maybe...twice.)

I'll list here each race with a set of stats; each set is fairly well-taken care of(as in, no trolls with Body 5 or dwarves with strength 3).

If my math is incorrect, someone please let me know. I basically gave them the max stats I could, in an even spread. Some of them are a bit short of 375, but given they had a small number left, it wasn't quite enough to add any more.

Human:

[ Spoiler ]

B: 5
A: 5
R: 5
S: 5
C: 5
I: 5
L: 5
W: 5
E: 5

If magic 6, drop four stats to 4.

Elf:

[ Spoiler ]

B: 5
A: 5
R: 5
S: 5
C: 6
I: 5
L: 5
W: 5
E: 5

If magic 6, drop Charisma to 5 and 3 other stats to 4.

Troll:

[ Spoiler ]

B: 9
A: 4
R: 5
S: 6
C: 3
I: 4
L: 4
W: 5
E: 5

If magic 6, drop Body to 8, Strength to 7, and either Edge or Reaction to 4.

Ork:

[ Spoiler ]

B. 7
A: 5
R: 5
S: 6
C: 4
I: 5
L: 4
W: 5
E: 5

If magic 6, drop Strength to 5, and Edge to 4, plus 2 other 5's to 4.

Dwarf:

[ Spoiler ]

B: 5
A: 5
R: 4
S: 6
C: 5
I: 5
L: 5
W: 6
E: 5

If magic 6, drop Strength to 5, Edge to 4, and two other stats to 4.

Yeah, looking at this-again, the fact they don't cost doesn't bother me, since our table just plays what we're in the mood for, but I really don't see why they need to be able to use more points over 375. It seems these base stat spreads are really good regardless of having magic(or Resonance) or not(assuming they spend the full 375, and if they don't, then even being allowed is moot anyway.

Hell, oddly enough, the two characters I ended up maxing out with were a human and an elf(both of these with vastly elevated Strength scores through different qualities). Any trolls or orks I've made have come in well under the cap. Have to do some more dwarf-testing, but the one I did make came in fairly well under the 375 cap as well.

[Cain]

What a load of crap. Basically what you say is oh yeah, SR4 sucks compared to SR3, but were not allowed to compare editions. So I'm going to take my one cheap shot and run away.

If you want to compare the editions do it. Don't just throw out crappy unsupported 1 liners and then claim to abandon the debate based upon some supposed rule.

If you want to do the math, fine. Without drawing a comparison, see if you can create a legal starting character in SR3 who could throw 51 dice for anything. Let's even see if it's even viable.

BUt yeah, if you don't like the fact that I'm following a moderator-imposed rule, then accept the fact that this is off topic; if you want to debate it, start a new thread for the flames that will ensue.

Again, while I am one of those folks that doesn't mind the metas not costing...there is one aspect, looking at it again, that I do somewhat disagree with-the fact they need more attribute points. Honestly, I think 375 across the board is just fine. I did a few calculations here, and honestly, any meta spending 375 suits them up just fine-even if they have magic. (This also assumes you spend the full half. Honestly, I think out of all of the karmagen guys I have, I think I might have spent all of the allowed points maybe...twice.)

That's part of the problem. Not only do metas not need to pay for their enchanced stats, they can spend more karma on them. That means you can push your attributes even higher; and attributes are generally more powerful than skills.

[Malachi]

If you want to do the math, fine. Without drawing a comparison, see if you can create a legal starting character in SR3 who could throw 51 dice for anything. Let's even see if it's even viable.

That's not a fair comparison because the two dice systems are different. Dice pools in SR4 are designed to be larger because modifiers apply to Dice Pools instead of the TN. I've tried a few times on some specific issues and its very difficult to establish a comparison baseline between the SR3 and SR4 systems.