BP's vs Karmagen Options

[MaxMahem]

If you want to do the math, fine. Without drawing a comparison, see if you can create a legal starting character in SR3 who could throw 51 dice for anything. Let's even see if it's even viable.

Oh, so you get to make sweeping unsupported generilsations, but I have to find proof to back up and support mine? How fair and even minded of you...

BUt yeah, if you don't like the fact that I'm following a moderator-imposed rule, then accept the fact that this is off topic; if you want to debate it, start a new thread for the flames that will ensue.

Uh my entire point was that your not. At all. What you repeatedly have done is made quick insulting comparisons of SR4 to SR3, then refused to support or defend them by claiming this so called rule.

I have no interest in engaging in an edition debate with you, as you have already demonstrated quite well to me that your knowledge of the SR3 rule set inaccurate, and you have admitted your rule book is 300 miles away. I only seek to point out that your hypocrisy in making insulting SR3-SR4 comparisons, then immediately clamming up based upon this supposed rule. As you did in the quote below, and as you have repeatedly done in the past.

Case in point:

I can create more abusive characters in SR4 than I ever could in SR3. But I forget that we're not allowed to compare editions, so I'm going to drop that right now.

[Cain]

I only seek to point out that your hypocrisy in making insulting SR3-SR4 comparisons, then immediately clamming up based upon this supposed rule. As you did in the quote below, and as you have repeatedly done in the past.

I find it interesting that you claim I "repeatedly" do things, then back it up with the same quote that sparked this whole battle. If I do something so "repeatedly", I'd think you'd have more than one very recent quote to back it up. Besides which, I fail to see the hypocrisy-- I instead see a blatant baiting attempt.

If you don't think it's a rule, ask an admin. Better yet, ask Bull, since he was the one who set it.

[Fortune]

Shrug. I find it interesting that despite several people mentioning the exact same thing, you still deny it. As for the quote, it's quite possible that people have better things to do than search out all of your recent quotes just to prove a point to you that other people seem to have no problem seeing.

As for it being a 'rule', it is specifically not listed in the Terms of Service, which includes the rules and posting guidelines. I know that Bull (and other Moderators) requested that comparisons not be made just after the time of SR4's release, because at that time it was resulting in numerous Flame wars, but I also seem to recall that he has mentioned since that it was more of a request at the time than an ongoing rule against any and all comparisons.

[Cain]

I find it interesting that despite several people mentioning the exact same thing, you still deny it. As for the quote, it's quite possible that people have better things to do than search out all of your recent quotes just to prove a point to you that other people seem to have no problem seeing.

Like you said, shrug. People will see what they want to see. Even nice, politically-correct, "constructive" criticism of SR4 gets met with flames here.

As far as the comparisons go, I was informed at the time that it was a rule. Rather or not it has been softened since then, I don't know. But in the meanwhile, I don't want to catch a suspension over it. However, thank you for proving to everyone that this isn't something I was making up.

[Fortune]

However, thank you for proving to everyone that this isn't something I was making up.

No problem, though I didn't for a moment even consider that anyone was actually thinking that way.

[Cain]

No problem, though I didn't for a moment even consider that anyone was actually thinking that way.

I only seek to point out that your hypocrisy in making insulting SR3-SR4 comparisons, then immediately clamming up based upon this supposed rule.

Emphasis mine, naturally. I assumed that he was thinking that way, although I may have been mistaken.

[Tyro]

Could we please just agree to disagree and get on with the topic?

PLEASE?

[Edit]: I've been told 600 Karma is about equivalent to 400 BP in overall power level. Does anyone have anything to say on that?

[Aaron]

I've been told 600 Karma is about equivalent to 400 BP in overall power level. Does anyone have anyting to say on that?

Have you tried working up the amount of Karma it would take to make the sample characters from SR4 at all? Use the versions from the most recent errata, so they're definitely 400 BP characters.

[Tyro]

Have you tried working up the amount of Karma it would take to make the sample characters from SR4 at all? Use the versions from the most recent errata, so they're definitely 400 BP characters.

I've seen numbers from where other people did, and those range from 400's to 500's IIRC. However, those characters are far from optimized.

On top of that, you shouldn't try building the exact same character with Karma that you made with BP. Some things are more expensive, others less. If you want to be optimal about it, you're going to end up with a significantly different character, even if they do the same things at about the same overall effectiveness.

[Glyph]

I've been told 600 Karma is about equivalent to 400 BP in overall power level. Does anyone have anything to say on that?

As a good rule of thumb, yes, but it's kind of like comparing SR3's Priority system with SR3's build point system with the points set at, say, 125. Generally, they were similar in power level, but still, each had advantages over the other for certain builds - the 125 points would let you make a human street samurai with the equivalent of an A Priority for resources and Attributes, while the Priority system let you build dwarven sorcerers who would be 135 points if built with build points.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that 600 Karma is closer to 400 Build Points, but it is still a good idea to use one method or the other when creating characters.

[Platinum Dragon]

Oh yeah? Well MY edition could beat up YOUR edition. =P

Seriously though, if you have a problem with the mechanical imbalance of metatypes under Karmagen, figure out how much it actually costs to play a troll. Make them pay the Karma for Str and Bod 2-5, add on the costs for natural armour and reach (I'm sure you can find an equivalent under the metagenic stuff or SURGE), and be done with it. The only thing you aren't costing at that point is racial maxs / mins, but they aren't that big a deal anyway. Sure, elves will still be technically better than humans, but the only thing you'll be getting points-wise fro free is a higher max on Agi and Chr, at the cost of a lower max on Edg and being forced to shell out for low-light vision.

Example:

Elf - 21 Karma (6 for Agi 2, 9 for Chr 2-3, 5 for low light vis? don't have books with me).
Human - 6 Karma (Edg 2).
Troll - ~100? (84 for Str/Bod 2-5, + whatever the cost is for reach and armour).

There you go, the races are now balanced - you pay for what you get. If you're really concerned, you could figure out a points rebate on lower racial minimums, but at least for the base races it doesn't seem like a big enough deal to me.

[Platinum Dragon]

Oh, and if your humans absolutely must be free (I don't see why this is so important, but a few people do), just lower every race's karma cost by 6.

[Tyro]

As a good rule of thumb, yes, but it's kind of like comparing SR3's Priority system with SR3's build point system with the points set at, say, 125. Generally, they were similar in power level, but still, each had advantages over the other for certain builds - the 125 points would let you make a human street samurai with the equivalent of an A Priority for resources and Attributes, while the Priority system let you build dwarven sorcerers who would be 135 points if built with build points.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that 600 Karma is closer to 400 Build Points, but it is still a good idea to use one method or the other when creating characters.

Please allow me to clarify: I build characters as a hobby, and I prefer Karmagen, but don't want to build characters more powerful than the ones made with 400 BP. I'm not concerned with advantages and disadvantages of each in this case; I just care about overall power levels.

[Fortune]

The thing is, I can build a really optimized character (with a very high power level) with 400 BP. I can also build a perfectly legitimate character that absolutely sucks (very low power level) with 400 BP. The same can be said for any reasonable amount of Karma.

[Tyro]

The thing is, I can build a really optimized character (with a very high power level) with 400 BP. I can also build a perfectly legitimate character that absolutely sucks (very low power level) with 400 BP. The same can be said for any reasonable amount of Karma.

But it's easier to build a superpowerful character with, say, 500 bp or 750 Karma than 400 BP or 600.

[Fortune]

Sure, but my point is that you can't really make a fair comparison of 'power levels' between the two systems, as the 'power level' can vary so much just using one system.

[ElFenrir]

With the difference between 600 and 750 Karma, I could build the same two characters with that and the differences will be rather subtle overall. For example-the difference between having 7 Knowledge/Language skills at 4 and 7 Knowledge/Language Skills at 3 right there is 28 Karma. (remember you pay for them with karma, free under BP.) The difference between those 4 roundout skills at 3 and those four roundout skills at 2 is a total of 24 Karma. Bringing the Willpower and Edge of 5 down to 4 is another 30 Karma. Ditching the extra contact saves another 12. The biggie save comes from taking that one Skill Group of 3 instead of 4 and dropping the 5+2 to a 4+2, saving another 30 Karma. Right there that is 124 Karma saved. The other 26 can come from anywhere, and honestly, the power difference between character A and character B is not that extreme, and they could probably run together, and 750 guy isn't going to totally overshadow 600 guy.

In this forum somewhere...someone actually managed to make a 400 BP character cost over 800 Karma, as well. I think it involved being a Nosferatu with maxed-out Mental attributes. So while 600-650 is very close to 400, yes, there will always be exceptions.

But I'd say 600 generally is around 400.

[Tyro]

That's exactly what I wanted to know. Thank you very much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

In this forum somewhere...someone actually managed to make a 400 BP character cost over 800 Karma, as well. I think it involved being a Nosferatu with maxed-out Mental attributes. So while 600-650 is very close to 400, yes, there will always be exceptions.

But I'd say 600 generally is around 400.

Soft maxed Logic and Intuition Nosferatu.

[Glyph]

Just a quick caveat, as far as the differences between 600 and 750 Karma being subtle - Build Points can be the same way, depending on how they are spent. Take two characters who are otherwise identical. Say that character #1 decides to go all out, getting Aptitude/Pistols, Surge II with Metagenetic Attribute Improvement/Agility, then hard-maxing Agility and getting Pistols at 7. Character #2, deciding to min-max slightly less, forgoes the two positive qualities, and contents himself with a soft-maxed Agility and a Pistols skill of 6. He has saved 53 points.

But how does he spend it? Maybe he decides to raise his Charisma from 3 to 5, and his influence group from 2 to 4, and his intimidation from 2 to 4, and add the First Impression positive quality. Compared to character #1, character #2 is noticeably more adept at dealing with social situations.

But maybe, instead, character #2 decides to raise Logic from 2 to 3, Strength from 3 to 4, add the Electronics and Outdoors skill groups at 1 each, raise Dodge from 3 to 4, raise intimidation from 2 to 3, and get one rank of the Will to Live positive quality. He has still spent 53 points, but now the only difference is that he is slightly more well-rounded, and throws an additional die every now and then. There is not that much of a noticeable difference between him and the character who is throwing 3 more dice in his main specialty.

karmagen is the same way. Sometimes you can trim 150 Karma from a character without cutting anything essential, but the difference can also be profound. I think part of it is that some character concepts are cheaper than others, so for the cheap ones, after 600 Karma you are only adding bells and whistles. I've noticed that certain builds take more points.

[Cain]

But it's easier to build a superpowerful character with, say, 500 bp or 750 Karma than 400 BP or 600.

Easier, but not impossible. Generally speaking, the harder you make it to have a powerful character, the more one-dimensional the resulting powerhouse will become. You cannot stop people from min/maxing, and by making it difficult you only encourage them to try harder. This is why I prefer asking my players to conform to dice pool caps-- when they max out, they go on to improve other parts of the character.

[Tyro]

Easier, but not impossible. Generally speaking, the harder you make it to have a powerful character, the more one-dimensional the resulting powerhouse will become. You cannot stop people from min/maxing, and by making it difficult you only encourage them to try harder. This is why I prefer asking my players to conform to dice pool caps-- when they max out, they go on to improve other parts of the character.

Would you care to elaborate on that? How exactly do you handle those caps, and what is your reasoning for the caps you use? And so on.

[Cain]

Would you care to elaborate on that? How exactly do you handle those caps, and what is your reasoning for the caps you use? And so on.

Basically, I just say: "Please don't create a character with a combat/social dice pool of over 20, or any other dice pool over 15." This is just based on what I've seen and experienced. Combat and social get the most negative modifiers, so for characters to feel powerful in those areas, they need a higher dice pool. Modify these dice pools as you see fit, of course. The end result is, I can quickly abstract NPCs by producing a dice pool of an appropriate size. The players feel powerful, because they can roll over easy opposition, while sweating it out over equal/superior opposition.

Think of it this way. IIRC, it takes 145 BP to build the essentials of a pornomancer. That's a lot, but it's doable while still creating a viable character. If you drop your BP allowance to 350, they aren't likely to sacrifice from their main power block. Instead, they sacrifice from everything else. Now you've got a 51-dice monstrosity running around in a supposedly "lower-powered" game. They just overbalanced the game even further.

On the other hand, what happens if you target the real problem: humongous dice pools, and the need to have those huge dice pools. If you cap them at, say, 20 dice, you get an interesting result: people stop trying to squeeze the life out of every last point, and instead focus on rounding out their character. They don't need a huge dice pool, because they feel capable at the levels you set. Naturally, you need to do your part as well: you have to make them feel like those dice pools are enough. If they feel like dice pools of 15-20 aren't enough, they'll try for higher dice pools next time.

[Tyro]

That sounds like a very good, reasonable way of doing things. I will definitely recommend it if I can find a game to join, or use it myself if I end up running a game myself.

[toturi]

On the other hand, what happens if you target the real problem: humongous dice pools, and the need to have those huge dice pools. If you cap them at, say, 20 dice, you get an interesting result: people stop trying to squeeze the life out of every last point, and instead focus on rounding out their character. They don't need a huge dice pool, because they feel capable at the levels you set. Naturally, you need to do your part as well: you have to make them feel like those dice pools are enough. If they feel like dice pools of 15-20 aren't enough, they'll try for higher dice pools next time.

No, all you are encouraging is for them to have as many cap maxed dice pools as possible. So instead of rounding out their characters, they are still squeezing life out of every last point.

So instead of a Mr "I will talk their pants off", you get a Mr "I talk their pants off or I blow their heads off". That's isn't much of a difference from my POV.