BP's vs Karmagen Options

[Cain]

In Karma? These same characters(IME) at least hover a point or two above the minimum. Again, is it because they get more? Probably. Does it make a more rounded and believable character? Yes. I had a buddy who played an ork combat mage, who, under the BP system, indeed had the 4 Body/3 Strength. Under Karma, his Body became higher, and he even upped the strength to a 5. But....he used a monowhip. He didn't even need the Strength. He just did it to round him out. I really don't mind the fact you can start with decent attributes across the board. What if I have a concept for someone who has great raw potential(high stats), but little training(few skills at lower ranks)? Sure, a GM could rule I could do that under BP, but then they'd have to explain to the group why they did that for just me. Under Karma, I can make that character, and no rules have to be stretched to do it.

This is exactly the problem Glyph and I were discussing. Since the characters are more powerful, there's less of a need to min/max. Under BP, you simply didn't have the points to have high attributes, since you were restricted to 200 BP for attributes. Under Karmagen, you have 375 + Double racial cost to work on those attributes with. So, not only do you not have to pay for a higher potential stat, you get more points to put towards it.

Its interesting to me how the dev's now anticipate DS's complaints about new rules, include words of warning in the canon text and still end up having these arguments.

That's because the freelancer also dabbles a bit on Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Since the characters are more powerful, there's less of a need to min/max. Under BP, you simply didn't have the points to have high attributes, since you were restricted to 200 BP for attributes.

I've seen this phenomena happen plenty of times in my own sheets. In fact, here on DS I nearly took part in a PBP game that fell through, and that game called for prime runner level PCs built with 400 bp, 300 karma and a big fat wad of nuyen. I ended up building an Elf Druidic Magician that had points thrown all over the place. I mean, really, I had already made him a Grade 6 Initiate with Force 4 Centering and Shielding Foci and 9 Reaction, so what harm would it do to build up his strength and Piloting skills up to talented amateur level?

Anyway, the 200 bp attribute limit and racial bonuses are something that I wish many gms would look at more carefully, particularly when creating lower powered games. I've seen many people decide that the only way to limit the presence of combat monsters is to cut the bp and nuyen-per-bp totals when in reality that just nerfs everyone and encourages people to play metas. After all, the metatype cost is essentially just buying pre-determined attribute packages at a discount, so being a meta is a huge advantage in a game in which attributes are suddenly by far the most cost effective chargen option. It's even worse when they cut the attribute limit down as well-- all of a sudden, humans are struggling to have a 4 or 5 in their defining talents without utterly gimping everything else they do. You end up with a Sixth World in which the humans tend to have glaring weaknesses and the trolls can all cheerfully afford 4 logic while still walking around in armored jackets. It's a huge part of why I always advocate limiting dicepool totals rather than progression methods when creating a lower power game. If people end up with points to spare, afterwards, great; blow 'em on Knowledge skills.

[TheOOB]

They're Trolls. They're supposed to be better, stupider but better. Don't you get it!!?? Humanis is right sort of.

But from a mechanical stand point they are not stupider, it costs the same amount of BP/Karma to raise a trolls logic/charisma as it does a human, they just how a lower cap which for the majority of characters is not that big of a deal. Unless you are a face or a magician, troll doesn't really penalize you in any way.

So why should one character, a human street samurai, be mechanically worse then a troll street samurai(by a fairly large margin) even though they both had the same starting resources. The extra edge is good, but not near enough to come close to the huge body and strength bonuses, and the reach, and the dermal armor.

Roleplaying is fine and good, but one of the goals of shadowrun is to survive, and you owe it to your team to create a competent character, it shouldn't feel like you are shooting yourself in the foot because you want to play a human.

[hobgoblin]

and real life people have a habit of finding jobs they are suited for, given time and different attempts...

so maybe one find a higher percentage of trolls being samurai in SR?

is there any numbers in the books about how common a metatype is for a specific job?

[The Jopp]

I am not going to get into this with you again Ancient, so I will briefly sum it up for Tyro.

Ancient assumes every metatype character will increase their attribute above what a Human is capable of, because he believes that is what they should do.

No, i really don't think that is what he means

Taking a troll and just going by the BASE attributes and raising the low points creates a freak. A troll with a body of 6 (racial base attribute+1) is a very very SICKLY troll as the average troll have a body of 8 or perhaps 9. maxed out trolls might have around 12 and that IS extreme and more rare.

If a metahuman with a higher base attribute that a regular human have a +3 to their attribute they would, SHOULD have at least ONE point higher in that attribute compared to a normal human that have a +0 - and your average human should have an average attribute of 3.

Unless they have an explanation of being extreme couch potatoes or sickly in some way.

[Tyro]

Being the OP, I really should have posted before now... problems in my personal life. This thread sure grew quickly! I REALLY appreciate everyone's input, and look forward to reading further insights as the thread grows. I've learned a lot already (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

No, i really don't think that is what he means

Taking a troll and just going by the BASE attributes and raising the low points creates a freak. A troll with a body of 6 (racial base attribute+1) is a very very SICKLY troll as the average troll have a body of 8 or perhaps 9. maxed out trolls might have around 12 and that IS extreme and more rare.

If a metahuman with a higher base attribute that a regular human have a +3 to their attribute they would, SHOULD have at least ONE point higher in that attribute compared to a normal human that have a +0 - and your average human should have an average attribute of 3.

Unless they have an explanation of being extreme couch potatoes or sickly in some way.

The problem is that the troll isn't sickly at all. He still enjoys better health than most humans will ever see.

This issue really shows its head when you are playing an otaku or mage. By picking a metahuman, you're able to have several dump stats, and still have good all-around attributes. This frees up points for magic/resonance and spells/complex forms. If you really want to get into it, you could even buy the Impaired Attribute flaw a few times, and save even more points that way. You're not a tank, but you've got magic to make up for it. Basically, you're a large human with superior stats.

[Tyro]

The problem is that the troll isn't sickly at all. He still enjoys better health than most humans will ever see.

This issue really shows its head when you are playing an otaku or mage. By picking a metahuman, you're able to have several dump stats, and still have good all-around attributes. This frees up points for magic/resonance and spells/complex forms. If you really want to get into it, you could even buy the Impaired Attribute flaw a few times, and save even more points that way. You're not a tank, but you've got magic to make up for it. Basically, you're a large human with superior stats.

I tend to agree with Cain and the others in his camp. Metatypes should cost in Karmagen. Whether they should cost full BP x 2, reduced BP x 1, or whatever remains to be seen.

What would be a good way to tweak Karmagen so the character it made was equivalent to a 400 BP character? Could you just reduce the Karma given, or is that too simplistic?

[Ancient History]

600 Karma is closer to a 400 BP character. That's approximate, there are still builds in either system that are better relative to each other at that level.

[Tyro]

600 Karma is closer to a 400 BP character. That's approximate, there are still builds in either system that are better relative to each other at that level.

Thank you.

[Ancient History]

De nada.

[Fuchs]

I recently made a character with BP and then with karmagen, and I was surprised how cheap skills and attributes were if you were aiming for average values (mostly 3s in both, some 4s and one 5 in attributes). I stopped at 595 karma, for concept reasons.

[The Jopp]

The problem is that the troll isn't sickly at all. He still enjoys better health than most humans will ever see.

Yea sure, by the numbers, but not compared to other trolls, which is a more accurate way of looking at it. i mean, seriously. a troll with minimum strength and body is equivalent as a human with STR 1 / BOD 1. How often to you meet people with such low attributes? Sure, they can be frail, old or have a serious disease but people with such low stats are extremely rare and are either children, old people or very sick people.

Sure, points wise it might be a good thing to do but the character will be a circus freak or mentioned in medical journals or an recent escapee from some gulag.

I just have a hard time seeing people with such mediocre attributes survive in the shadows - one should at least raise it one point above minimum and call them frail.

Nor can I agree that they enjoy "better health" since they burn more food to fuel their bodyframe, larger mass to lug around, so no, the only thing is that if they sustain an equal kind of damage (gunshot, stabbed) from an enemy then the troll have a slightly higher chance of dropping the damage a few steps.

[Fuchs]

A bullet's DV doesn't care if the troll is, compared to other trolls, more frail - all it cares is what the damage resistance looks like. If a human with body 6 can survive in the shadows, then so can a troll with body 6. It's not a mediocre attribute at all.

[hobgoblin]

makes me ponder if not the attributes should be a "above or below average" kind of value.

as in, the average is 0, that is it neither adds to or subtracts from the test.

but a attribute above normal, +1 and higher, adds to the test.

and one below average, -1 and so on, subtracts.

but that still only works within a single kind. just like how a damage scale built for people breaks down when applied to large vehicles...

[Fuchs]

Do you really think a pixie character with above average body (say 3) should receive a bonus to damage resistant checks while a troll with below average body (say 6) should get a penalty?

What's so wrong or difficult at simply looking at the actual value of an attribute? Those who have a higher body, no matter how they got it, be it cyberware, metatype, or spells and powers, are better at withstanding damage.

[The Jopp]

A bullet's DV doesn't care if the troll is, compared to other trolls, more frail - all it cares is what the damage resistance looks like. If a human with body 6 can survive in the shadows, then so can a troll with body 6. It's not a mediocre attribute at all.

Which wasn't my point. My point was the roleplaying aspect of using dumpstats - there should be an explanation for why a person with minimum stats manage to sruvive in teh shadows and WHY they run the shadows with such things.

A human with minimum body attribute is 1 A troll equivalent is 5. To other of their metatype they would most likely appear as sickly individuals since average attribute for their metatype is 3 and 8.

Lets assume that You and I have average stats of 3, regular average healthy individuals, now imagine a BOD 1 person...That's when we are talking extreme cases of anorexia or death camp survivors - And they are out in the Shadows...

The same would go for trolls if they face someone with BOD 5 vs their own BOD 8.

I dont have a problem with such characters but there should be a damn good explanation to their minimized attribute other than "I wanted a minmaxed troll mage".

[Fuchs]

Let's say I am an individual with very low strength - for a healthy adult male. Now, I have, for whatever reason ever, to compete with 6 years old in weight lifting. Now, why shouldn't I succeed there, even if every other adult male could clean my clock? The 6 year olds are still weaker, no matter how trained. A task they can handle, I can handle with ease still.

Even a sickly troll is more robust than a trained human. Just as a weak elephant is still much stronger than a human.

[toturi]

Lets assume that You and I have average stats of 3, regular average healthy individuals, now imagine a BOD 1 person...That's when we are talking extreme cases of anorexia or death camp survivors - And they are out in the Shadows...

The same would go for trolls if they face someone with BOD 5 vs their own BOD 8.

I dont have a problem with such characters but there should be a damn good explanation to their minimized attribute other than "I wanted a minmaxed troll mage".

Actually no, I would not think so. An average Caucasian man is usually larger than an average East Asian man (same when you compare a troll to a human). Does that mean that a normal sized Caucasian man would look askance at an East Asian sized Caucasian man?

[Glyph]

Which wasn't my point. My point was the roleplaying aspect of using dumpstats - there should be an explanation for why a person with minimum stats manage to sruvive in teh shadows and WHY they run the shadows with such things.

A human with minimum body attribute is 1 A troll equivalent is 5. To other of their metatype they would most likely appear as sickly individuals since average attribute for their metatype is 3 and 8.

Lets assume that You and I have average stats of 3, regular average healthy individuals, now imagine a BOD 1 person...That's when we are talking extreme cases of anorexia or death camp survivors - And they are out in the Shadows...

The same would go for trolls if they face someone with BOD 5 vs their own BOD 8.

I dont have a problem with such characters but there should be a damn good explanation to their minimized attribute other than "I wanted a minmaxed troll mage".

The rules don't really back that point of view up, though. The hacker and street shaman archetypes are both characters with the equivalent of Body: 1/Strength: 1 for humans. Even the gunslinger adept, a more physically active archetype, has the equivalent of Body: 2/Strength: 2. If you look back to SR3, you will find that the badass, uzi and sword-wielding troll combat mage has the equivalent of Body: 1/Strength: 2.

I have always seen 1 as the lowest functional Attribute, representing someone underdeveloped in that area. But considering that 6 Karma will improve it to 2, and 9 more Karma will improve it to 3, I don't see it as being an invalid/developmentally disabled person, etc. because I can't see someone going from invalid to average in just two or three runs.

[Muspellsheimr]

Not to mention that going by the "3 is average" standard (which many people, myself included disagree with), the Troll with Body 8 would be notably above average.


And to reinforce my point, your argument, along with nearly every other for the metatype not having a cost in Karma generation is based on roleplay aspects, which has jack shit to do with mechanics. Roleplaying varies between tables, while mechanics are the hard, consistent rules that make the game work. Game balance should never be based off the perceived roleplaying standard, as there is no such standard.

[Fortune]

... the Troll with Body 8 would be notably above average.

Not for a Troll!

[Cain]

Which wasn't my point. My point was the roleplaying aspect of using dumpstats - there should be an explanation for why a person with minimum stats manage to sruvive in teh shadows and WHY they run the shadows with such things.

A human with minimum body attribute is 1 A troll equivalent is 5. To other of their metatype they would most likely appear as sickly individuals since average attribute for their metatype is 3 and 8.

Lets assume that You and I have average stats of 3, regular average healthy individuals, now imagine a BOD 1 person...That's when we are talking extreme cases of anorexia or death camp survivors - And they are out in the Shadows...

The same would go for trolls if they face someone with BOD 5 vs their own BOD 8.

I dont have a problem with such characters but there should be a damn good explanation to their minimized attribute other than "I wanted a minmaxed troll mage".

The problem here is, that troll still has a huge Body in relation to the human.

Look at it this way: The human you describe would have 9 hit points. The troll would have 11. Even though a "normal" troll would have 12, the difference isn't as great as the difference between the human and the troll with a dumpstat.

Out in the shadows, no one cares where your stats are in relation to the rest of your metatype. I'm personally running a Body 2/Strength 1 mage. If she were a troll, those stats would jump considerably, enough so that they'd stop being weak points.

Don't forget, not only do metahumans get these stats for free, they get more points to spend on them. A troll can spend 455 karma on attributes, while a human can only spend 375. And certain metatypes can spend even more! Given the power of attributes in this system, that amounts to a huge advantage.

[Muspellsheimr]

Not for a Troll!

Yes, actually. A Body 8 Troll is equivalent to a Body 4 Human, in terms of metatype average.

[masterofm]

Ok I had to throw my hat into this slog fest only to make one point.

@ Ancient - I understand that what you are talking about is more about a RP aspect with the karma gen system. However if everyone doesn't sit down at a table and take 5-10 hours before game time to create all of their characters together and make sure they are all balanced then there will be abuse. If your logic is based on the maturity and RP of players I think you might have forgotten about public SR games and how infantile some people can be when roll playing in general. Most tables will not sit down and create character balance because Character gen just takes way to damn long in SR4. Generally it comes down to people submitting their character builds to the GM and the GM saying yes or no to the character. However a GM cannot always see how broken a character can be and once they are able to skirt their character past the GM and then it becomes hard for a GM to gimp the character (as he will generally catch flack from the player.)

Yes in theory if you all sat down and created a perfect balance then the whole free meta type based on background and RP aspects would not be an issue. However this is not the case for the majority of the players, and when people are doing the straight hardcore math why not be an orc, troll, or elf and just take all of those free attributes? People's arguments are the fact that the system can easily be abused, and not that you can sit down with your players and squeeze the imbalance out of what is obviously a huge potential imbalance in the system (mathmatically speaking.)