Why make a Homunculus Options

[WeaverMount]

Homunculi are pretty awesome and well worth there cost in time and money. My question though is why bother with the amazingly expensive reagents? You don't have to possess a vessel. What happens if you make the body of the Homunculus, don't enchant it one iota, and order a spirit to possess it?

[pbangarth]

The reagents etc. are required to make the vessel (homunculus) a 'prepared vessel', and get the +6 dice to the possession test. The homunculus is an artificial object, and would have a decent threshold for the possession attempt. Preparing it properly makes it easier for the spirit to possess the vessel. This can be important, because if a spirit fails to possess a vessel, it can't try a second time.

Peter

[Da9iel]

I suppose it merely takes longer, or low force spirits may fail entirely.

[edit]And it's not as cool without the glowing blue gem in the chest and/or forehead.[/edit]

[TheOOB]

It's also a good idea to have some good prepared vessels in case you need a spirit right NOW and can't risk the spirit failing to possess it. Also since spirits can't try to repossess things, you might not wanna risk your bound spirits not being able to possess your really cool gun or what not.

[crizh]

While the subject is under discussion.

Anybody got any idea why the listed homunculi in SM don't use the rules for their stats?

They all seem to use half barrier rating for no apparent reason and have a random penalty assigned to Agility and Reaction with no explanation.

[Stahlseele]

Balancing Reasons i guess . .
imagine what one could do with Shadowrun-Materials for example . .
a titanium/aluminium alloy with finely crafted moveable parts and a shell that has been hardened with industrial diamonds.
put a spirit in and there's nothing much that can stop something like this . . imagine Terminator or something like that ^^

As for the "Why make a Homunculus?":
BECAUSE WE CAN

[crizh]

I think you're missing the point. There are pretty clear rules on how to generate stats for Possessed 'In-animate' objects.

The sample Homuculi just ignore them. For no apparent reason.

[Ancient History]

Uh...no, they don't. There are guidelines for the stats of possessing inanimate vessels, but a large part of that is left up to GM fiat. One of the reasons for introducing homunculi in SR4 was to give new players and GMs a set of ready-made-vessels with plug-in-play stats.

[crizh]

Uh...no, they don't. There are guidelines for the stats of possessing inanimate vessels, but a large part of that is left up to GM fiat. One of the reasons for introducing homunculi in SR4 was to give new players and GMs a set of ready-made-vessels with plug-in-play stats.

So why ignore the guidelines but give no explanation as to why?

If it's a balance issue surely it is the guidelines that need changes rather than the Homunculi built with them.

[Ancient History]

So why ignore the guidelines but give no explanation as to why?

Uh...we didn't. The guidelines are basically "Use the attributes of the thing, if any, but it's whatever the GM thinks is appropriate."

[crizh]

Uh...we didn't. The guidelines are basically "Use the attributes of the thing, if any, but it's whatever the GM thinks is appropriate."

In which case by the guidelines a Plasteel Homunculus should have Armour, Body and Strength of 15 + Force.

Unless the GM thinks it is not appropriate. In which case why does the author not bother to mention he felt it was inappropriate?

[Ancient History]

Because its a statue, not a wall? Does that really need to be spelled out?

[Stahlseele]

depends on the form you give the homungus . . you CAN make it so it actually is a wall if he's standing still . .
heck, make it look like a Troll and it's close enough to being a wall

[crizh]

Because its a statue, not a wall? Does that really need to be spelled out?

Yes it does.

An objects innate resistance to damage due to the hardness and resilience of the material is it's Armour Rating. This Rating is independent of thickness.

Structure is the amount of Damage that penetrates this natural resilience per 10cm of thickness that the object can absorb before being breeched.

Plasteel Handcuffs have an Armour Rating of 15, a Plasteel Moon has an Armour Rating of 15 and a Plasteel Nanite has an Armour Rating of 15.

If you want to make sweeping alterations to the way the guidelines are applied in specific circumstances you have a duty to say so and to explain your reasoning and methodology.

You have created a situation where GM's following the Guidelines to create, for example, Reinforced Concrete Homunculi end up creating things that are wildly unbalanced compared to the printed examples because you have failed to point out the way you have decided Homunculi should be treated differently to every other inanimate vessel.

[Ancient History]

I think you're reading way too much into that man.

[WeaverMount]

You have created a situation where GM's following the Guidelines to create, for example, Reinforced Concrete Homunculi end up creating things that are wildly unbalanced compared to the printed examples because you have failed to point out the way you have decided Homunculi should be treated differently to every other inanimate vessel.

This was basically what I was getting at. the rules for possessing in-animate objects create vessels that are much more powerful and much cheaper than homunculi. There is also no reason given for why mage would ever choice to use the homunculi rules.

Also I really don't see what Crizh is reading to much into.

Hey as an side, how would people stat possessed heavy mil-spec armor?

[GreyBrother]

Something sprang into my mind today:
Is a homunculi out of explosives possible? And could it boom itself up?

Think about it. A little man made of plastic explosives with an possessing fire spirit. And the Thing walks up to the bad guys and the fire spirit makes an elemental Attack or something on himself and goes "Boom". The spirit wouldn't be harmed, wouldn't he?

[pbangarth]

Something sprang into my mind today:
Is a homunculi out of explosives possible? And could it boom itself up?

Think about it. A little man made of plastic explosives with an possessing fire spirit. And the Thing walks up to the bad guys and the fire spirit makes an elemental Attack or something on himself and goes "Boom". The spirit wouldn't be harmed, wouldn't he?

The spirit would be disrupted right back through its metaplane. Yeah, it would hurt. The spirit wouldn't actually be destroyed, but the memory would be pretty sour and I don't think the conjurer could do this too often before spirits started balking.

I like the image, though.

Peter

[WeaverMount]

no reason you couldn't task the spirit to get the bomb in place and set a one second fuse giving it plenty of time to get of this plane before the vessel goes boom.

[Pendaric]

Don't forget tradition paradigm in your calculations. It is unlikely, for example, that a hugon can find a formula in keeping with his tradition for a titanium or plastic explosive homunculus.

[WeaverMount]

That's my point. They don't need it such a formula. They just need to summon a plain old spirit per there tradition, and possess this thing they made. Heck if it's hard to possess you could even make it a prepared vessel for next to nothing