Technomancer Complex Forms Question., It's a Question? Options

[Gnat]

Okay, my Technomancer wishes to take his Databomb CF and run it on a normal Comlink which keeps my groups TacNet. The CF is Rating 3. Since 3 isn't very high and not all that Hard to Disarm. I decided to Thread it which I manage to get it up to 11.

My question is; do I have to sustain it or have a sprite sustain it if I want the databomb to stay at rating 11 on the normal comlink? Or is it once it's done and set the databomb stays at that rating until disarmed? If I have to keep me or the sprite sustaining it, if I were to go to sleep/knocked out would I need to re-do the threading for the CF (the sprite is registered)?

Hope that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

[Gnat]

Okay while re-reading the BBB as well as Unwired as well as lurking on the site and using the handy dandy search option. I've come up with a few more questions.

1.
Can TM's use Viruses, Worms & Trojans? I know they don't exist as CF's but if I were to buy them could I use them?

2.
I have my Living Persona as well as a tricked out comlink. I have a centralized TacNet, meaning all of my groups comlinks are subscribed to my comlink (A total of 8 comlinks). From there if I were to subscribe my physical comlink to my Living Persona would the subscribe cost for my Living Persona be 9 or 1?

3.
Now if the answer to question 2 is 1. A plain/normal hacker would not be able to access my Comlink nor the Comlinks Subscribed to it. Is that correct?

[Tycho]

no idea for the databomb.

at 1: You can use them like a hacker, therefor you may need extra "Hacker" Skills, because your "Technomancer" Skills doesn't fit (depends on the GM).

at 2: I would say 9, because you subscribe the commlink to your Living Persona, you have admin access to your commlink which gives you admin access to your teammates commlinks, so you have to sustain 9 subscripted commlinks.

at 3: regardless of answer 2: a subscribed node can be accessed by spoofing the subscription that you are the master node, than you have to hack the subscribed node as usual and deactivate the subscription.

cya
Tycho

[Tiger Eyes]

Okay, my Technomancer wishes to take his Databomb CF and run it on a normal Comlink which keeps my groups TacNet. The CF is Rating 3. Since 3 isn't very high and not all that Hard to Disarm. I decided to Thread it which I manage to get it up to 11.

My question is; do I have to sustain it or have a sprite sustain it if I want the databomb to stay at rating 11 on the normal comlink? Or is it once it's done and set the databomb stays at that rating until disarmed? If I have to keep me or the sprite sustaining it, if I were to go to sleep/knocked out would I need to re-do the threading for the CF (the sprite is registered)?

Hope that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Wow, this one makes my brain hurt. My opinion would be that once you create a databomb it is sustained by itself until either defused or triggered. Now, the bomb can only be attached to a specific file or device, and I don't know that a commlink would be a great idea-- it makes me wonder if routine traffic coming in would trigger it? If someone tries to call you, would that trigger it? "Access Device" is pretty broad. If you walk past something that trys to send you SPAM, does that trigger it? You have to enter the correct passcode everytime you access the device--so the communications between the sensors and the tacnet would have to be set to enter the passcode before getting into the tacnet--as a GM, I might rule that might cause some time delays or lag that would interfer with the tacnet.


And what were you rolling to get 8 hits on a threading test??? And roll off 8 P damage? Wow!

[note: my opinion may change as I talk to some folks about this. Especially since a rating 11 databomb (meaning the disarm test is outrageous!) can likely only be successfully defused by a threaded Defuse CF.]

[Tiger Eyes]

Okay while re-reading the BBB as well as Unwired as well as lurking on the site and using the handy dandy search option. I've come up with a few more questions.

1.
Can TM's use Viruses, Worms & Trojans? I know they don't exist as CF's but if I were to buy them could I use them?

A TM can buy and send out malware like any other hacker. If you wanted to program it yourself you'd need to use normal programming skills rather than your technomancer version of them.

2.
I have my Living Persona as well as a tricked out comlink. I have a centralized TacNet, meaning all of my groups comlinks are subscribed to my comlink (A total of 8 comlinks). From there if I were to subscribe my physical comlink to my Living Persona would the subscribe cost for my Living Persona be 9 or 1?

If the tacnet is a normal program, it could run on the commlink (if it is a CF it cannot). If you want to participate in the tacnet, you also would subscribe yourself (via your living persona) to the central commlink.

3.
Now if the answer to question 2 is 1. A plain/normal hacker would not be able to access my Comlink nor the Comlinks Subscribed to it. Is that correct?

You're confusing Subscribing with Slaving. If you decide to slave the central commlink to yourself, all communications to it would be forwarded to your living persona -- including the tacnet info from your teammates. Which means the tacnet wouldn't get any sensor data and would be useless. Slaving makes the commlink unhackable by a hacker (since your brain is unhackable by a normal hacker), but useless in this situation.

If, however, you are subscribing the commlink to yourself, it works fine for the tacnet, but can be hacked.

A better solution would be to make yourself a central hub and slave all your teammates links to your living persona. They couldn't communicate between each other, then--you'd have to relay all communications. And all the sensor data would have to be sent to your teammate's commlinks by hardwired connection (no wireless communication). But the network would be secure.

I don't know if the additional security is worth the hassle. Probably better to make your commlink have a firewall 6, set it to only accept Admin status accounts, and give it Analyse 6. Then a hacker would have to roll 12 hits to get in, hard to do before your commlink detects them.

A hacker could still eavesdrop on your communications without being detected, though, and could even mess stuff up [intercept wireless signal, pg 225 SR4].

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

Okay, my Technomancer wishes to take his Databomb CF and run it on a normal Comlink which keeps my groups TacNet. The CF is Rating 3. Since 3 isn't very high and not all that Hard to Disarm. I decided to Thread it which I manage to get it up to 11.

My question is; do I have to sustain it or have a sprite sustain it if I want the databomb to stay at rating 11 on the normal comlink? Or is it once it's done and set the databomb stays at that rating until disarmed? If I have to keep me or the sprite sustaining it, if I were to go to sleep/knocked out would I need to re-do the threading for the CF (the sprite is registered)?

Hope that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

For the record I'm the GM of this twinky little fucker, don't give him any ideas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Heath Robinson]

Slaving makes the commlink unhackable by a hacker (since your brain is unhackable by a normal hacker), but useless in this situation.

No. No it doesn't.

Hackers have three options when faced with a slaved node. First, they can hack in directly to the slave with an additional threshold modifier of +2, though this requires a physical (wired) connection to the device. Second, they can hack the master node (thus gaining access to the slaved node—and any other slaves— as well), though this node is usually more secure. Third, they can spoof the access ID of the master node and then spoof commands to the slave.

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

No. No it doesn't.

Technomancers work a bit differently.

as per the rules on page 135 of Unwired

Although an opposing hacker cannot scan or enter the
technomancer’s biological node, he can sense and intercept the
wireless traffic between the technomancer and an electronic node
(like a drone or device) as mentioned on p. 225, SR4. Hackers can
even spoof a signal coming from the technomancer, as the traffic
originating from the bio-node has to be in an electronic format
that devices can understand, and is therefore vulnerable to forgery.
Hackers may not, however, spoof commands to sprites (though
technomancers may spoof such commands).

Essentially the only person that can access the biological node of a TM is another TM.

[Heath Robinson]

Did you even read the italicised portion of my Unwired quote? I'll go back and bold it as well to make it more obvious.

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

Did you even read the italicised portion of my Unwired quote? I'll go back and bold it as well to make it more obvious.

I'm still not sure if I get your point. It says that a hacker can't enter the bionode. So they spoof whatever to get the access code, they enter the access code they successfull have access to the bionode and can do nothing to it. Its like being able to open the door to a room that is blocked with concrete and bricks.

[Heath Robinson]

Oh, right, you just don't know the rules and have no technical background to substitute for a knowledge of the rules.

Spoofing is like the Disguise skill; it lets you pretend to be someone else. If you spoof the AID of the biological node, you pretend to be the Technomancer. Then you can spoof commands to the slave and it'll think that the commands are being sent by the device you're spoofing as (the Technomancer, in this case).

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

Oh, right, you just don't know the rules and have no technical background to substitute for a knowledge of the rules.

Spoofing is like the Disguise skill; it lets you pretend to be someone else. If you spoof the AID of the biological node, you pretend to be the Technomancer. Then you can spoof commands to the slave and it'll think that the commands are being sent by the device you're spoofing as (the Technomancer, in this case).

Well your hostility/internet assholery is noted. As for your position, since you're being asshole I'm done with this line of argument. Ad hominems make me not care what you say regardless of whether or not your right. Cheers.

[Cabral]

Essentially the only person that can access the biological node of a TM is another TM.

Which was why he suggested spoofing commands from the master node (which your quote stated was just fine) to the slave node (ie, your teammates' commlinks).

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

Which was why he suggested spoofing commands from the master node (which your quote stated was just fine) to the slave node (ie, your teammates' commlinks).

Cheers, I understand now. I wasn't getting that spoof necesarilly involved operating from the accessing ID of chief node (in this case the bionode).

[Heath Robinson]

I know this will change nothing, but I feel like I should apologise.

I am sorry. I shouldn't have snapped like that, it was wrong to do so and I should really keep my demeanor in check. Various little things have been getting to me when they really shouldn't.

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

I know this will change nothing, but I feel like I should apologise.

I am sorry. I shouldn't have snapped like that, it was wrong to do so and I should really keep my demeanor in check. Various little things have been getting to me when they really shouldn't.

No it honestly changes alot, no harm no foul. I probably shouldn't have done the same thing back to you. So I too apologise.

[Tiger Eyes]

As you'll note, I said it made the commlink unhackable. Yes, you can spoof orders. But those wouldn't be hacking the commlink. You can also intercept the wireless signals and eavesdrop.

If you want to protect against spoofing, you could use sprites. I'll have to read up to see how this would work: put a sprite in each commlink, slave said commlink to the sprite, then slave each sprite to you. It's a bit late, and I'm tired, so there may be holes in this suggestion. But it does prevent spoofing orders by a non-technomancer.

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

As you'll note, I said it made the commlink unhackable. Yes, you can spoof orders. But those wouldn't be hacking the commlink. You can also intercept the wireless signals and eavesdrop.

If you want to protect against spoofing, you could use sprites. I'll have to read up to see how this would work: put a sprite in each commlink, slave said commlink to the sprite, then slave each sprite to you. It's a bit late, and I'm tired, so there may be holes in this suggestion. But it does prevent spoofing orders by a non-technomancer.

The problem would be that Gnat doesn't have that many sprites rolling around. For sure slotting sprites in say half of the slaved links would have a decent probability of slowing the enemy hacker down, but he's got sprites in guns, moving with him for cybercombat and more. If I'm not mistaken he's not got more than one or two sprites left to do what your suggesting, and it'd be even less if he's using them to sustain that rediculous databomb.

[Ryu]

For the record I'm the GM of this twinky little fucker, don't give him any ideas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Evil ideas like sending "Agent Redskirt" to hack the databomb-protected comlink (denial-of-service)?

Oh, that idea was for you. Let me try again.

Evil ideas like "the other parts of the tacnet are pretty well-informed about the whereabouts of the TM, and might be easier to hack"?

Damn. I´ll try again after work, Gnat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Thadeus Bearpaw]

Evil ideas like sending "Agent Redskirt" to hack the databomb-protected comlink (denial-of-service)?

Oh, that idea was for you. Let me try again.

Evil ideas like "the other parts of the tacnet are pretty well-informed about the whereabouts of the TM, and might be easier to hack"?

Damn. I´ll try again after work, Gnat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Wait, yeah those are dirty trick and I would hate for me, the GM, to get such dirty tricks to bend-over the TM (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) But I'm a believer in freedom and I wouldn't dare constrain your ability to express such dirty secrets really (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Gnat]

Yes Thadeus is my GM.

Wow, this one makes my brain hurt. My opinion would be that once you create a databomb it is sustained by itself until either defused or triggered. Now, the bomb can only be attached to a specific file or device, and I don't know that a commlink would be a great idea-- it makes me wonder if routine traffic coming in would trigger it? If someone tries to call you, would that trigger it? "Access Device" is pretty broad. If you walk past something that trys to send you SPAM, does that trigger it? You have to enter the correct passcode everytime you access the device--so the communications between the sensors and the tacnet would have to be set to enter the passcode before getting into the tacnet--as a GM, I might rule that might cause some time delays or lag that would interfer with the tacnet.


And what were you rolling to get 8 hits on a threading test??? And roll off 8 P damage? Wow!

[note: my opinion may change as I talk to some folks about this. Especially since a rating 11 databomb (meaning the disarm test is outrageous!) can likely only be successfully defused by a threaded Defuse CF.]

I never considered that routine traffic would or even could set off a data bomb. This is something neither me nor my GM thought of and would change some of our cyber combat tactics. Which I'm fine with. And after a small discussion will now change.

I missed typed my Databomb is a rating 4 with the Pavlov option from Unwired. To thread I roll 12(Resonance 7 + Sotware Test 5) got 7 successes. For Fading I roll 12 as well. But if I'm not mistaken I only roll to resist fading when "I" sustain a CF. While Having a Sprite sustain it counts as a service and I don't need to resist fading for sustaining. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tiger Eyes: as well you are correct I was confusing Subscribing with Slaving. Thanks for the correction (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes the TM Bio Node can only be hacked by other TM's. But any hacker or TM could spoof commands from me to my slaved devices i.e. the other comlinks in this situation. Unless I were to try the put a Sprite in each comlink thing. But Thadeus is correct with all that I have my total of 6 sprites doing I wouldn't have enough to do what Tiger Eyes suggested. If I still wished to Thread during cyber combat and such.

Evil ideas like sending "Agent Redskirt" to hack the databomb-protected comlink (denial-of-service)?

Oh, that idea was for you. Let me try again.

Evil ideas like "the other parts of the tacnet are pretty well-informed about the whereabouts of the TM, and might be easier to hack"?

Damn. I´ll try again after work, Gnat. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Lets see with what I was proposing I don't think the DDOS would work since I would be slaving my team mates comlinks to my physical comlink. Then slaving my physical comlink to my Living Persona. Which would sadly leave my out of the TacNet (But I'm not a meat combat kinda guy). And since any
"normal hacker" with "normal programs and agents" can't hack a Bio-Node They wouldn't be able to hack what is slaved to it. So they would be unable to DDOS me.

Or I could just slave them all to my living persona. But if I'm not mistaken from what it says in the BBB Page 248 A rigger can choose to have multiple drones subscribed as a single device. This allows the rigger to have more devices actively subscribed, but is limiting since all the drones must receive the same orders. I can't see why the same could not be done with comlinks. If this is not the case please feel free to correct me.

As for the second part I think the same rules would apply. Since I am the "HUB" of the network you would first have to hack me... Which see previous. Granted this would not stop someone Spoofing commands to my team mates comlinks. See Page 55 & 59 of Unwired

But they could always try to hack the slaved item if they wanted. But that would require a "Direct Wired Connection" So at that point my team has a few other problems. And well I've already covered Hacking the master node directly which is a Bio-Node and we covered Spoofing which really isn't hacking IMHO, game wise atleast.

[Cabral]

As you'll note, I said it made the commlink unhackable. Yes, you can spoof orders. But those wouldn't be hacking the commlink. You can also intercept the wireless signals and eavesdrop.

Actually, see Thadeus's post (in response to yours) above. You can hack the slave with a penalty but it requires physical access to the slaved commlink.
Ie, drop a teammate and hack the link then the hacker is in your network.

Of course, tie a biomonitor to the link and you can make the commlink seize up if a teammate drops. (Oops, sorry Thadeus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Ryu]

Lets see with what I was proposing I don't think the DDOS would work since I would be slaving my team mates comlinks to my physical comlink. Then slaving my physical comlink to my Living Persona. Which would sadly leave my out of the TacNet (But I'm not a meat combat kinda guy). And since any
"normal hacker" with "normal programs and agents" can't hack a Bio-Node They wouldn't be able to hack what is slaved to it. So they would be unable to DDOS me.

1. If you slave your comlink to your living persona, your comlink is now unable to accept other subscriptions, including those from other devices trying to become slaves. Connection attempts would be forwarded to the living node automatically. (And while it is not explicit, I would not permit a slaved device to provide a persona. Slaving = surrendering full control to another node. Think about communication clusters with strong encryption, slaved to the hackers commlink.)

2. Per the SR FAQ it is possible to spoof "change master to XXX" orders. This is ideally closely followed by an "install malware" order.

[DTFarstar]

As an FYI, Gnat and Thadeus, Fading and Sustaining are two completely different things and have very little to do with one another except that traditionally the technomancer has to deal with both of them.

For instance, we'll use your data bomb above as an example. Rating 4 Data Bomb CF, you make a threading test with 12 dice and get 7 successes(kudos on that rolls, by the by) bumping the program up to rating 11.

For threading, the Fading DV equals the hits used for rating points. If the rating of the threaded complex form exceeds the technomancer's Resonance, the damage is Physical rather than Stun.

So, since the threaded complex form(note not complex form to be threaded, so it uses the modified rating) is rating 11 vs. your 7 Resonance you need to resist a Fading value of 7P for that test with a dice pool of Willpower + Resonance.

Sustaining on the other hand is the... well, this explains it fairly well.

Threaded complex forms must be sustained(similar to how magicians sustain spells). Sustaining requires effort on the technomancer's part and so he suffers a -2 dice pool modifier to all tests for each sustained complex form.

So, that is what you get when you have a sprite sustain a threaded complex form for you, you don't have to put forth the effort and concentration on it yourself, and thus do not retain the -2 sustaining penalty. Just to round things out, here is the relevant text on sprite's sustaining complex forms for you.

Sustain Complex Form: Any complex form threaded by a technomancer may be sustained by a registered sprite instead, so that the technomancer does not suffer the -2 sustaining modifier. One task is used up for each period equal to the sprite's rating in Combat Turns that it sustains the complex form. A Rating 4 sprite that owes two tasks, for example, can only sustain a threaded complex form for 8 Combat Turns. The technomancer can take over sustaining the complex form as the sprite finishes this task(or at any time). If the sprite is destroyed in cybercombat, the sustained complex form ends.

You might also want to take note of the bolded time limitation on a sprite sustaining a complex form, it is combat turns = to rating per service so if that data bomb needs to be sustained, you really don't want a sprite to do it unless you've built up an ungodly backlog of services or have a specific use in mind that happens very soon.

Hope I've been a help,
Chris

[Dashifen]

I know this will change nothing, but I feel like I should apologise.

I am sorry. I shouldn't have snapped like that, it was wrong to do so and I should really keep my demeanor in check. Various little things have been getting to me when they really shouldn't.

No it honestly changes alot, no harm no foul. I probably shouldn't have done the same thing back to you. So I too apologise.

You guys are ruining all our fun with this harmony and apologizing and stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)