SR through a GURPS glass, Thoughts on SR from a GURPS point of view Options

[MaxMahem]

I've have always loved the setting material in the GURPS books. The rules, no so much, but I think (and continue to think) that GURPS has some of the best stuff when it comes to defining a setting. Which is probably while although I have never run a GURPS game, I have a shelf full of their books, more as reference items. I was looking through the new GURPS 4e Ultra-Tech book and ways in which stuff in it might be applied to SR came to mind. These are some of those thoughts.

Firstly, in GURPS 4e terms, SR tech level is solidly TL9 with many TL10 elements representing the cutting edge of SR tech. Of course given the inequalities present in the SR setting, many of the poor, and SINless people still relying up TL8 stuff. The only super science elements present are mono-wires and neural induction. The important take away point from this is that virtually any TL10 device could be incoporated into your game if you wish. Virtualy all of it is in reach of SR tech, it just may not have been developed yet because of cost or lack of demand. But you certianly still could introduce it, at maybe 10 or 100 times the listed cost in GURPS. The key difference in SR and many other TL9-10 societies is that space in SR has not been developed to a great degree.

Thoughts on individual items of tech
Power Generation: Power in SR relies mostly on Fission and Fusion generators. More portable examples of each are probable examples of each are probably possible, but are not widely used because of security concurs. A portable fission or fusion reactor falling into the wrong hands would make a great run idea though. Solar Power is in wide use most likely, but in most of the megaplexes it is limited by smog and pollution. The NAN may use it more intensively. Solar Power Sats are probably possible, but remain mostly undeveloped (they would fit right in if you wanted to throw some in though). In the heavily urbanised setting of SR, Beamed Power (while possible) probably does not come into play very much.

Power Storage:It's not clear what powers the more energy intensive TL10 devices like the new Ares Lasers. Most other devices are powered either by fuel cells or more advanced chemical batteries. Most SR tech isn't that energy intensive so TL9 power cells still work well.

Computers: Computing in SR is solidly TL10. Commlinks are generally TL10 Small computers, while older cyberdecks were probably TL9 Personal computers (possibly compact). Genius computers are common as well. Virtually every item in SR has a Tiny computer built in. AI is a software based phenomenon. AR, VR, and 'Sensies' are all well developed. Uploading is not currently possible. Well at least not on-purpose. But a large number of cases happened during Crash 2.0.

Cybernetics: Also solidly TL10. New to SR4 is more widespread and efficient Total Conversion Cyborgs and Brains in a Jar.

Nanotechnology: Also TL10, though not very wide-spread as of yet. Outside of the human body, only microbots are possible, which are very small robots, but not truly nano-tech. Inside the body a variety of semi-organic nano-tech devices are possible. All TL10 swarm types are probably possible, though not all have currently been made. Gastrobots are also unavailable. Nanofacturing is possible (A TL11 development) but is of such limited utility it might as well be considered an advnaced form of TL10 manufacturing.

Sensors & Communication: All TL10 devices are possible, though not all are in wide deployment.

Weaponry: Shadowrun's approach to weaponry is concervative. Conventional fire-arms remain the dominate weapon, probably because of their continued cheapness and utility. TL10 lasers are slowly working their way to market, while hand held particle weapons remain undeveloped, power-cell tech is probably the limiting factor here. Electrolasers are possible, but have apparently been passed over in favor of sonic stunners and more conventional stun weapons. Likewise, guass weapons are slowly working their way to market.

A couple advancedments in small arms remain un-persued but possible.In particularl electro-thermal and liquid propellant. We should expect to see these in at least some SR firearms, but apparently they have been overlooked. Perhapce they have been to cost prohibitive. Gyrocs are in existance, with the potential for (very expensive) homeing rounds.

Armor: It's hard to put a TL on SR armor. I would guess that it is mostly TL9 with advanced polymers and ceramics, but with some TL10 materials in use in parts.

Anyways, just some of my thoughts on SR vis a v GURPS 4E.

[KCKitsune]

I never played GURPS, but like any "crossover" you would have to make sure it doesn't unbalance your game.

Heck, I've been putting together an Anime d20 campaign (d20 doesn't cause cancer, to say so is insulting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) ) and a lot of Shadowrun cyber can be explained by the powers listed in BESM... which makes it easy to not unbalance my game.

The campaign I'm putting together has the characters jumping from reality to reality trying to get home, and one world they're going to visit is a Shadowrun (2070) Earth. They're going to be in a little bit of shock because they haven't seen the rules and what gear there is in SR books... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[knasser]

I've never played GURPS and I'm not familiar with the setting you describe. It sounds interesting and a potential source of new toys. I agree with you about the tech-levels of Shadowrun from the way you describe the GURPS stuff. In my Shadowrun Introduction for New Players, I say of the tech levels, that there haven't been any fundamental break throughs - no lightsabres or teleporters - but that a lot of what is only possible in theory today, is now possible in practice in 2070.

One thing though, is that as both magic and technology progress year after year in the Shadowrun setting (i.e. with each new release), Shadowrun is eventually moving toward a higher fantasy setting. I still recall when Insect Spirits were radically new and Initiation was a strange new force that caused the players to wonder "How did she do that!"

I think what we need, is Shadowrun Historical. The list of magical techniques and technological toys you have at each stage in SR history, but all under the same rules set. So you can use 4th ed. rules and play in 2030 or 2050 or whenever. It would be interesting to compare things between time periods. Just a thought that your thread provoked...

[kzt]

Power sats are very extensively used. It created the Japanese empire . (Well that plus the "Power of PLOT!!") The Japanese routinely haul multi-thousand ton structures into Geo.

[Synner667]

I remember downloading a set of GURPS notes that someone put together, about the time SR v1 or v2 came out...
...Which was how to do Cyberpunk [which they didn't have any rules for] with the Fantasy rules GURPS had.

Of course the mix'n'matching is one of the strengths of GURPS, HERO or Fuzon...
...And does bring home how Cyberpunk is just near future science fiction.


Personally, I think you might find people with much lower TL...
...As you do in the realworld - some people have riches and high tech, some people have no money and live the same as they did a thousand years ago.

I think it's Mr William G who said "the future is already here, just unevenly distributed".


I started doing conversions years ago...
...But did so much work that I ended putting together my own rules, setting and gear [which is just so much easier to maintain], and any source material I buy now [regardless of rules] ends up being converted.

[BookWyrm]

You'd have to find the books GURPS Cyberpunk, GURPS Cyberpunk Adventures, & GURPS Cyberworld. They're very well written, if they're anything like the rest of the GURPS sourcebooks. I had GURPS Cyberpunk for a while, but lost it a long time ago. I still have my GURPS The Prisoner, GURPS Wild Cards & GURPS Wild Cards Aces Abroad. Thankfully, a copy of GURPS lite helped.

Here's SJG's list of GURPS Cyberpunk books.

[Ancient History]

When I die, I will become master of a corner of that dark place and build my own private hell for those who mix Shadowrun and GURPS.

[Ed_209a]

I think most bad GURPS experiences are caused by GMs who think you have to use every rule and option in every setting.

I really recommend starting from the 30-odd page GURPS Lite (free, btw) and add on only what you need, rather than remove all the stuff you don't need from the 550+ page core books.

[vapor]

When I die, I will become master of a corner of that dark place and build my own private hell for those who mix Shadowrun and GURPS.

Made me think of this...

http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z50/vap...ndstheearth.jpg

[Dashifen]

Made me think of this...

http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z50/vap...ndstheearth.jpg

That is a thing of beauty.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[KCKitsune]

When I die, I will become master of a corner of that dark place and build my own private hell for those who mix Shadowrun and GURPS.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) AH, are you not taking this a little too seriously? I mean come on, it's a GAME! It's one thing that I disliked about Catalyst. "D20 causes cancer", what kind of childish asinine comment is that? Nothing professional I can tell you that.

Let's face it, Catalyst and Shadowrun, while great game publishing company and a great game respectively don't hold a candle to the monster that is Wizards of the Coast in regards to sales and knowledge of the D&D game. Almost everybody knows about D&D, Shadowrun... not so much.

If I want to take the information and fluff from Shadowrun and use it in any of my personal d20 (or GURPS, Rifts, or whatever) game, then it's my choice and if I want to share that with people here, then that's my choice as well. Saying what you said sounds... stupid. If you were trying to be funny then you should have used an emoticon showing that you were just joking.

[Matsci]

After all it's not like d20 ever ripped of Shadowrun.
[img]http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/CS_Gallery/91400.jpg[/img]

(From D20 Cyberscape)

[KCKitsune]

After all it's not like d20 ever ripped of Shadowrun.
[img]http://www.wizards.com/d20modern/images/CS_Gallery/91400.jpg[/img]

(From D20 Cyberscape)

Matsci, if your comment was directed to me then I don't know what I said in my post that made you think that I thought that WoC was all Good And Light. I did call them a monster.

[Ancient History]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) AH, are you not taking this a little too seriously?

No. See, I can appreciate GURPS and Shadowrun separately, but these are two flavors that should never go together, and I'll tell you why: Shadowrun is a game, GURPS is a system. Shadowrun has a setting, GURPS does not (though it tried with 4e, give it that). GURPS books are well-written by talented and erudite people, but when you come down to brass tacks GURPS is about boiling everything down to one plug-and-play ruleset. That is the single and entire point of GURPS (besides, y'know, making money). GURPS is the system around which you build a game; Shadowrun is a complete game.

When I say Shadowrun is a complete game, I mean it has its own rules system that is integral to the world. GURPS doesn't have rules for Essence, or metamagic, or make nice distinctions about what magic and cyberware can and cannot do. It is, not to put a fine point on it, too open-ended. The limitations of a thing are a large part of what defines it, be it a game system or a character. GURPS has no character. When people want to play Shadowrun with a GURPS (or Savage World, etc.) ruleset, I cringe like a lapsed Catholic hearing some LeVay Satanists talk about a Black Mass. It is unnatural and unholy and when you get down to brass tacks, it isn't Shadowrun.

Okay, melodrama aside, if there's one thing everyone on the boards should know by now its that I love this game. I loved it when I was a wee fanboy before I even had a website, I love it as a freelancer, and on the day when I finally say the wrong thing and the management stops answering my e-mails I'll still love it. I'm not going to tell you or anyone else how to play - but to me, and this is only me, playing it with another system isn't really playing the game.

If "GURPSR" works for you, Ghost bless. But I still reserve the right to drag your damned soul into my little hellish room to make you pay.

[Adam]

It's one thing that I disliked about Catalyst. "D20 causes cancer", what kind of childish asinine comment is that? Nothing professional I can tell you that.

While I don't share Ancient History's opinions about Shadowrun GURPS, it is my professional opinion as someone who's been working fulltime in the game industry since 2002 that the huge proliferation of 20 System products -- many of which were "shovelware" -- did indeed do a lot of long-time harm to the business end of RPGs, harm that is still being felt by all three tiers [retailers, distributors, manufacturers.]

And, I'll also point out that Ancient History is _not_ a Catalyst Game Labs employee; his opinions are his own, and the company and the individuals at the company don't necessarily agree with him.

[vapor]

Almost everybody knows about D&D, Shadowrun... not so much.

D&D has been around a lot longer as a real game than it has as a D20 pseudo-game. Back in the 80's you even had national television news stories about it supposedly leading to murders and Satan worshiping. (Ok, not the best way to be known but it did help it become a household name.) D&D has had several (bad) movies-- one of which had a very young Tom Hanks (bonus karma if you know what I'm referring to.). We can also mention dozens of video games for multiple platforms and god knows how many novels.

Ask most TT players where they got their start in RPG's and I'd say most of them will answer with D&D. It was an industry giant long before Wizards picked it up.

On the other hand Shadowrun caters to a more niche market. Tolkien meets Gibson and has a royal rumble doesn't quite have the same universal draw as knights on horseback. Two video games, (one of which barely counts) and a smattering of novels (some of which never should have made it to the presses) and no movies-- doesn't quite have that same cross section of markets to expose people.

[KCKitsune]

While I don't share Ancient History's opinions about Shadowrun GURPS, it is my professional opinion as someone who's been working fulltime in the game industry since 2002 that the huge proliferation of 20 System products -- many of which were "shovelware" -- did indeed do a lot of long-time harm to the business end of RPGs, harm that is still being felt by all three tiers [retailers, distributors, manufacturers.]

Can you give me some links so I can see this for myself? I know, with the economy going into the crapper, that people are going to be a LOT less likely to shell out money for games, but I didn't know that WoC harmed the game market.

And, I'll also point out that Ancient History is _not_ a Catalyst Game Labs employee; his opinions are his own, and the company and the individuals at the company don't necessarily agree with him.

My statement about unprofessionalism stems from Catalyst's statement that d20 causes cancer. That was all you and not AH. You could have said that Catalyst had absolutely no plans for making a d20 version. That sounds a little more professional.

[Adam]

Can you give me some links so I can see this for myself? I know, with the economy going into the crapper, that people are going to be a LOT less likely to shell out money for games, but I didn't know that WoC harmed the game market.

This doesn't relate to the current economy; I'm talking about a situation that began in 2000 with the release of the d20 System and the d20 System License. The sheer volume of titles released over the 3-4 years, up until it slowed in 2003-2004, ended up hurting the RPG industry in multiple ways:

* For a period of time, distributors and retailers scaled back on ordering non-d20 products, while often over-ordering d20 products. Distributors, especially, failed to act as "gatekeepers," making short-term money over long-term health.

* Many companies sprung up producing d20 products as quickly as possible, with little regard for quality. Initial orders from distributors were great, and sales were initially great -- until people realized that a lot of the stuff wasn't that good, and there was simply too much of it, and too many products trying to do the same thing as others -- so subsequent products ended up massively overprinted and still to this day sit on store shelves, in the warehouses of distributors and manufacturers, or they were pulped.

* To combat those problems, distributors then sharply pulled back from pre-ordering, even from established companies with strong brands. [when pre-order numbers are no longer a good gauge of overall demand, determining print run size becomes more and more of a guessing game.]

* Stuck with tons of stock they couldn't move, and compounded by a doldrums in the collectible game market in 2001-2004ish, a large number of game stores went out of business.

Next time you're in a gaming store, take a look at the shelf where they keep stuff that's been around for awhile, but hasn't sold, the game is no longer being made, the company is out of business, etc. Most stores have a shelf -- or several -- like this. Mentally total up the price of all those books, then divide it by half. That's, roughly, how much money the retailer has paid for those books.

* Several fulfillment houses [companies that help manufacturers sell and market to distributors and stores] went out of business, often owing money to publishers or creating situations where publishers had to *pay* to get back their stock. [One such fulfillment house was Fast Forward Entertainment, who at the time, handled distribution for FanPro. They went out of business leaving a large unpaid to FanPro. Another was Osseum, who disappeared overnight, leaving the rent on their warehouse unpaid and bills to game companies unpaid -- these very same game companies had to pay the warehouse to retrieve the books that the companies already owned!]

* While many, many print publishers started making d20 products or were formed just to make d20 products in the early part of the decade, fewer than a handful of them were still making d20 products by 2005. Most of the new companies disappeared, some of them stuck around producing OGL stuff or branching out into other facets of gaming [Most notably: Green Ronin and Mongoose Publishing].

* Once the d20 tidal wave of products slowed down, neither distributors or stores returned to strongly ordering or stocking most RPGs, some of them only stocking core D&D stuff heavily. This led to more and more gamers buying directly from the publisher, or from Amazon, further weakening local stores and the distribution chain.

Naturally, not all of these problems are 100% "caused by the d20 'boom'" -- but in every case it impacted those situations or started the ball rolling on them. Some people -- at all levels of the industry -- made good money in the early days of d20, and then the middle days of d20 ate it all.

My statement about unprofessionalism stems from Catalyst's statement that d20 causes cancer. That was all you and not AH. You could have said that Catalyst had absolutely no plans for making a d20 version. That sounds a little more professional.

And I'll stand by saying it [even though I wasn't the one that said it originally, but I'm pretty sure I was the one that cut-and-pasted it into the Catalyst FAQ and made the decision to keep it]. I played enough d20 and worked at a publisher that did d20 stuff, and I've seen the effects of it on their business and the business as a whole. It produced some truly great products and a whole pile of average and sub-par ones, but it also heavily contributed to damaging the RPG industry as a whole.

I make games about professional criminals; giant robots; and photographers trying to get panty shots of celebrities. I'm not afraid of a little irreverence, and most of the fan base reacts positively to it.

[D Minor]

Well...... I don't want to Adam in a Dark Ally

D&D had a good thing going. They broke it as soon as they went to AD&D. IIRC D&D characters level out at 12th. In AD&D the poor fighter class got left behind the other classes in terms of power.

[KCKitsune]

Well...... I don't want to Adam in a Dark Ally

D&D had a good thing going. They broke it as soon as they went to AD&D. IIRC D&D characters level out at 12th. In AD&D the poor fighter class got left behind the other classes in terms of power.

Actually, if you're smart the high level fighter can be more deadly than the Wizard or Cleric. Remember unlike Shadowrun, a high powered spell could take some time to cast. In Shadowrun, a Fireball comes off as fast as a stunbolt. In AD&D, a fireball took longer to cast than a sleep spell.

You just needed to be faster than the spell slinger (and have a handy dagger to disrupt his concentration and making him lose his spell). Rings or Helmets of teleportation will allow you to zip right on over and beat the spell slinger about the head and shoulders with your trusty sword.

It's sort of the same thing in Shadowrun, the Spell Slingers at the high end are more powerful than the Street Sammy... if the Sammy is stupid. Being the first off the starting block and kicking the mage's hoop with some serious hardware will make it so he can't get the uber mojo off. The street sammy just needs to have speed and a GOOD weapon. Also getting the one gene treatment that denatures his DNA when it's removed from his body is almost a "Must have" item.

[Cain]

[Damn it, how many posts did this thing make?!?]

[Cain]

[Double Post, Sorry]

[Cain]

No. See, I can appreciate GURPS and Shadowrun separately, but these are two flavors that should never go together, and I'll tell you why: Shadowrun is a game, GURPS is a system. Shadowrun has a setting, GURPS does not (though it tried with 4e, give it that). GURPS books are well-written by talented and erudite people, but when you come down to brass tacks GURPS is about boiling everything down to one plug-and-play ruleset. That is the single and entire point of GURPS (besides, y'know, making money). GURPS is the system around which you build a game; Shadowrun is a complete game.

When I say Shadowrun is a complete game, I mean it has its own rules system that is integral to the world. GURPS doesn't have rules for Essence, or metamagic, or make nice distinctions about what magic and cyberware can and cannot do. It is, not to put a fine point on it, too open-ended. The limitations of a thing are a large part of what defines it, be it a game system or a character. GURPS has no character. When people want to play Shadowrun with a GURPS (or Savage World, etc.) ruleset, I cringe like a lapsed Catholic hearing some LeVay Satanists talk about a Black Mass. It is unnatural and unholy and when you get down to brass tacks, it isn't Shadowrun.

Okay, melodrama aside, if there's one thing everyone on the boards should know by now its that I love this game. I loved it when I was a wee fanboy before I even had a website, I love it as a freelancer, and on the day when I finally say the wrong thing and the management stops answering my e-mails I'll still love it. I'm not going to tell you or anyone else how to play - but to me, and this is only me, playing it with another system isn't really playing the game.

If "GURPSR" works for you, Ghost bless. But I still reserve the right to drag your damned soul into my little hellish room to make you pay.

I love Shadowrun too, AH. You know that. I publically brag about having my 1st edition BBB autographed by Jordan Wiseman. I've been playing Shadowrun about as long as it's possible to have played it.

That being said, I think (and have always thought) that Shadowrun needs to learn a lesson from universal systems. Form the beginning, Shadowrun's rules have run second to the world. Early editions had rules that weren't thought out right, but made up for it by including exciting and new mechanics. By the time SR3 rolled around, most of the problem areas had been identified (although not fixed, see the Maneuver Score) and the rest of the mechanics came in an elegant, refined, and completely tested package.

Enter SR4. While I acknowledge that it kept some of the spirit of Shadowrun, enough to make it a successor, everything else is completely different. In other words, Shadowrun has already been converted to a new system. Love it or hate it (and as a reminder, we're not allowed to discuss comparisons), the fact is that it's completely different, just as if it were converted to the New World of Darkness engine.

If we were discussing SR3, I'd agree with you. And if SR4's engine were the one that had run Shadowrun all along, I'd still agree with you. But once you've done it, doing it again becomes easier. You may as well convert it to d20, carcinogens and all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) , for all the changes that have been made. The system I fell in love with is gone, and the replacement is mediocre and insipid.

For those of you who weren't there: Shadowrun pioneered the use of several mechanics, including template-based character creation (and made famous by White Wolf), dice pool systems, and allocatable dice pools. These mechanics went on to make a huge shift in RPG design theory. Many of today's top games draw off of principles developed for the first editions of Shadowrun. Once upon a time, Shadowrun was considered to be an innovator in the area of game design. I loved that about Shadowrun, too.

So, while Shadowrun may have a unified system and storyline, they've been divorced once and can be divorced again. The thought of GURPS-Shadowrun or Savage Shadowrun or even d20 Shadowrun doesn't faze me, because something similar has already happened. In fact, I'd prefer it, because GURPS and Savage Worlds have strong and durable systems behind them. If we're going to convert the system, why not convert to something stronger?

[Ancient History]

"And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-Maker, Saruman of Many Colours!'

"'I liked white better,' I said.

"'White!' he sneered. 'It serves as a beginning. White cloth may be dyed. The white page can be overwritten; and the white light can be broken.'

"'In which case it is no longer white,' said I. 'And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.'"

[Adam]

Now now... gotta gives props to Ghostbusters [1986] for being the first dice pool system. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)