Karma Evaluation, Races Options

[Cabral]

Okay, the recent discussions about Karma vs BP got me thinking, if we made players pay for their racial abilites under Karma, what would the cost be?

The way I calculated this, and I'm sure there are flaws, is as follows:

First, I'm charging for the bonus, but not the increased maximum attribute.
Start with the karma cost of a human (6 karma for a starting 2 edge); since this is our baseline, we'll be subtracting the result from other races.

10 karma - Ork: 26 karma Attributes + 10 karma (vision) - 6 karma (discount) - 20 (Impaired Attribute x2)
37 karma - Dwarf: 23 karma (Attributes) + 10 karma (vision) +20 karma (resistance, based upon Quick Healer) - 6 karma (discount) - 10 (Impaired Attribute x1)
21 karma - Elf: 17 karma (Attributes) + 10 karma (vision) - 6 karma (discount)
32 karma - Troll: 38 karma Attributes + 10 karma (vision) +10 karma (reach) +20 karma (dermal deposits) =10 karma (Celerity) - 6 karma (discount) - 50 (Impaired Attribute x5*)
*Normally you can't take impaired ability more than once per attribute, but for these purposes, I applied it twice to Charisma.

Okay, so there are my estimates for the karma value of the various metahumans. Under the current karma system, it doesn't seem like your getting that much of a discount. (and this is not counting a dwarf's and troll's need for metahuman adjusted gear (maybe a 10 karma flaw, if that) or a dwarf's reduced running speed (10 karma flaw?). If you're worried about this discount, not giving metahumans an increased limit on karma spendable on mental, physical and special** attributes may be enough of an offset.

Metavariants may be another matter.

** I just noticed the karma system does not separate special attributes from the 50% limit.

What do you think?

[Fortune]

Not dissing your math (I didn't bother to check it, but I'm sure it's right), but ...

The final results just seem ... wrong.

[Ryu]

- I would not consider "vision" for karmic value calculations, as it is now available for a few hundred bucks.
- Impaired attribute has a karmic value, but if you want to include it, you should add "exceptional attribute" (several times).

[Cabral]

Not dissing your math (I didn't bother to check it, but I'm sure it's right), but ...

The final results just seem ... wrong.

Yeah, it does. But I'm not sure why. It's not the math, but it may be the inputs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ryu, the point of including vision is that some of the karma gripes are about the freebies metas get and I think in SR4 natural vision mods still have some advantage over tech even if it's just hack resistance. I did not include exceptional attribute because that would be:
Human: +80 karma (which then reduce the modifiers below by 80)
Ork: +280 karma
Dwarf: +280 karma
Elf: +200 karma
Troll: +400 karma

Substituting metagenic improvement for the attribute costs would yield:
Ork: 190 karma
Dwarf: 220 karma
Elf: 130 karma
Troll: 310 karma

Which is way off scale.

[Glyph]

I think that efforts to break down metatype costs into specific bonuses and penalties are rarely successful - you always miss some things, and it always boils down to judgment calls in certain areas.

I don't understand where you are getting these Karma costs from. Trolls get +4 Body and +4 Strength - a Body and Strength of 5 cost a human 84 Karma.

It seems wrong for the dwarf to be the costliest metatype. They have a lower running speed, require gear specially made or adjusted for them, suffer a penalty for using large melee weapons (if you use that advanced rule from Arsenal), and have their Reaction gimped - possibly the most commonly augmented Attribute, and it is capped at 7.

[Fortune]

I did not include exceptional attribute because that would be:
Human: +80 karma (which then reduce the modifiers below by 80)
Ork: +280 karma
Dwarf: +280 karma
Elf: +200 karma
Troll: +400 karma

Substituting metagenic improvement for the attribute costs would yield:
Ork: 190 karma
Dwarf: 220 karma
Elf: 130 karma
Troll: 310 karma

Despite the large numbers, these seem to be proportionately more in scale than the original post.

[Muspellsheimr]

- I would not consider "vision" for karmic value calculations, as it is now available for a few hundred bucks.
- Impaired attribute has a karmic value, but if you want to include it, you should add "exceptional attribute" (several times).

Low Light Vision is a 5 BP Positive Quality. Vision Enhancements cost a few hundred Nuyen & a piece of equipment (which can be lost, & cannot be used with spellcasting), or a few thousand Nuyen & Essence.

Yes, Low Light & Thermographic are worth 10 Karma each.


As for Exceptional Attribute, I would suggest using Metagenic Improvemen (reduced to a cost of 10 BP / 20 Karma for these purposes) in place of the cost to increase the attribute to it's starting level.

This gives us new costs as follows:

Human - 0 Karma
20 Karma (Metagenic Improvement: Edge)
-20 Karma (Racial Discount)

Ork - 70 Karma
100 Karma (Metagenic Improvement: Body, Body, Body, Strength, Strength)
10 Karma (Low-Light Vision)
-20 Karma (Impaired Attribute: Charisma, Logic)
-20 Karma (Racial Discount)

Dwarf - 70 Karma
80 Karma (Metagenic Improvement: Body, Strength, Strength, Willpower)
10 Karma (Thermographic Vision)
20 Karma (Pathogen/Toxin Resistance)
-10 Karma (Impaired Attribute: Reaction)
-10 Karma (Misc: Reduced Speed, Customized Equipment)
-20 Karma (Racial Discount)

Elf - 50 Karma
60 Karma (Metagenic Improvement: Agility, Charisma, Charisma)
10 Karma (Low-Light Vision)
-20 Karma (Racial Discount)

Troll - 115 Karma
160 Karma (Metagenic Improvement: Body, Body, Body, Body, Strength, Strength, Strength, Strength)
10 Karma (Thermographic Vision)
10 Karma (Elongated Limbs)
10 Karma (Dermal Deposits - Note: This is half the cost of similar qualities, as I am of the opinion they are overpriced)
10 Karma (Celerity)
-50 Karma (Impaired Attribute: Agility, Charisma, Charisma, Intuition, Logic)
-5 Karma (Misc: Customized Equipment)
-20 Karma (Racial Discount)
-10 Karma (High-Cost Discount*)

* Due to the increasing restrictions placed on other areas of character creation/development due to high metatype costs, the benefits provided by these costs are increasingly less useful or cost-effective. For this reason, racial costs of 50 BP (100 Karma) receive a 5 BP (10 Karma) discount, & an additional 5 BP (10 Karma) discount for every full 25 BP (50 Karma) they exceed this value (-5 at 50 BP, -10 at 75, -15 at 100, etc).



This happens to be twice the Build Point value I suggest for each race, except for Trolls, who at this price are nearly unplayable due to the limited use of Strength (& Dwarves/Orks to a much lesser extent, for the same reason). I suggest reducing the cost of Strength advancements to 10 Karma per point because of this, resulting in Ork cost of 50 Karma, Troll cost of 75 Karma, & Dwarf cost of 50 Karma.


Edit: Three responses while I was typing - just thought I would point that out.
Edit2: Reduced Troll cost by 10 Karma, added explanation.

[Muspellsheimr]

10 karma - Ork: 26 karma Attributes + 10 karma (vision) - 6 karma (discount) - 20 (Impaired Attribute x2)
37 karma - Dwarf: 23 karma (Attributes) + 10 karma (vision) +20 karma (resistance, based upon Quick Healer) - 6 karma (discount) - 10 (Impaired Attribute x1)
21 karma - Elf: 17 karma (Attributes) + 10 karma (vision) - 6 karma (discount)
32 karma - Troll: 38 karma Attributes + 10 karma (vision) +10 karma (reach) +20 karma (dermal deposits) =10 karma (Celerity) - 6 karma (discount) - 50 (Impaired Attribute x5*)
*Normally you can't take impaired ability more than once per attribute, but for these purposes, I applied it twice to Charisma.

I just decided to check, & your Attribute costs are way off.
Ork - Body 4 (6+9+12) + Strength 3 (6+9) = 42
Dwarf - Body 2 (6) + Strength 3 (6+9) + Willpower 2 (6) = 27
Elf - Agility 2 (6) + Charisma 3 (6+9) = 21
Troll - Body 5 (6+9+12+15) + Strength 5 (6+9+12+15) = 84

[Fuchs]

I think Muspellsheimr's calculations are more logical.

[Tyro]

I think Muspellsheimr's costs are the best I've seen, if you use the modified Strength costs. I vote those costs be added as an option to the character sheet in development on these boards (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

They already have (for the Karmagen version of the sheet) free races (as per RAW), double-BP-cost-in-Karma races, and BP-cost-in-Karma races; this seems better than any of those.

[edit: minor clarification]

[Fortune]

I think they are the best so far, if you don't use the modified Strength costs.

[Tyro]

I think they are the best so far, if you don't use the modified Strength costs.

What's your reasoning?

[Muspellsheimr]

I partially agree with Fortune. The problem is not in the high cost, but in the limited usefulness of the Strength Attribute. Reducing the cost is a temporary & half-assed fix. What really needs to be changed is the benefits of Strength. I have already begun to do this in my House Rules, increasing the Recoil Compensation it provides. As I am lacking playtest data on this, I am not sure if it is enough, to little, or to much. If to little, I am unsure what else to change (increasing melee damage to Str instead of Str/2 is not a good idea).

[Fortune]

If you are going to start weighing (and costing) Attributes on their usefulness, then there will never be common ground. Despite popular opinion, Strength (or Charisma, or...) are actually valuable stats to some people.

A better solution, at least in my opinion, is to move some Skills to the Strength (and Body) Attributes. I would think about starting with skills from the Athletics Group, and maybe Intimidation. But again, once you start varying from canon, then everyone has their own opinions on the matter.

[Fuchs]

It varies greatly according to what playstyle, and archetype one has. In some campaigns, Charisma might be of limited use, others might see Logic as weak. I'd value strength as a full attribute.

[Cthulhudreams]

What the heck is the grand design for strength in the basic book aside from trollbows? The actual lifting capacity you get per the book is pretty terrible.

More specifically.. strength 6 lets you lift 90kgs? And 120 kgs if you go into overload! (Well, + 5 x body score. Wowee)

Carrying capacity of 60kgs

Hooray


So a strength 12 body 12 troll can:

Lift 180 kgs

Overdrive to lift by 285 kgs

Lift over his head 70 kgs

Overdrive to lift 105 kgs

Carry 120 kgs

Overdrive to carry 190 kgs

Wow, as the world record for a snatch is 210 kgs and a clean and jerk 480 kgs (both overhead lifts), I am hardly impressed. People are seriously stronger than a 12/12 troll today. Admittedly the win olympic gold medals, but yeah.

However, when we comparing it to logic, charisma, body, agility, it sucks. Logic is worth it just because it buys you knowledge skills and is linked to a drain attribute, and is used for first aid. Hey thats not bad at all.

[Tyro]

I see everyone's points, but I have to agree with Cthuludreams. Strength is the bastard attribute. No other attribute is so useless. Even characters who use it primarily (i.e. brawlers) don't see much use for it. Its benefits simply aren't as great as those of other attributes.

Body - damage resistance.
Agility - let me count the ways.
Reaction - Initiative, vehicle skills.
Logic - first aid, possibly drain, free knowledge skills if using BP generation or houseruled Karmagen. The best Drain attribute since it can be directly boosted (not a dice pool modifier) with cyber-and-bioware implants (encephelon, cerebral booster).
Charisma - the other dumpstat, but unlike Strength, when it's useful it's USEFUL. See Pornomancer. Also a possible drain attribute. Not as nice in that way as Logic, as it can't be raised with implants, but better than Intuition since you can play an elf.
Intuition - Perception and Initiative, possible drain attribute.
Willpower - spell defense, the only mandatory drain attribute.

Strength - A few DV for unarmed, some recoil comp (1 at 6, 2 at 9, 3 at 12), the aforementioned PATHETIC carrying capacity (which almost nobody uses anyway)... and trollbows. Which are pretty ridiculous when twinked out. I'm an archer myself, and you'd have to have some INCREDIBLY strong (i.e. special-made) arrows to survive shooting from one of those. Among other issues.

Sorry for the fragmented post; I'm on some pretty strong painkillers right now.

[Edit]: Added a couple of minor things, fixed some punctuation.

[Cabral]

I just decided to check, & your Attribute costs are way off.
Ork - Body 4 (6+9+12) + Strength 3 (6+9) = 42
Dwarf - Body 2 (6) + Strength 3 (6+9) + Willpower 2 (6) = 27
Elf - Agility 2 (6) + Charisma 3 (6+9) = 21
Troll - Body 5 (6+9+12+15) + Strength 5 (6+9+12+15) = 84

Gah. OpenOffice shanghaied my math. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) The way it does multiple references is awkward and I forgot to move over when creating my cost table. *bangsheadonwall*

Fixed below

Okay, the recent discussions about Karma vs BP got me thinking, if we made players pay for their racial abilites under Karma, what would the cost be?

The way I calculated this, and I'm sure there are flaws, is as follows:

First, I'm charging for the bonus, but not the increased maximum attribute.
Start with the karma cost of a human (6 karma for a starting 2 edge); since this is our baseline, we'll be subtracting the result from other races.

26 karma - Ork: 42 karma Attributes + 10 karma (vision) - 6 karma (discount) - 20 (Impaired Attribute x2)
41 karma - Dwarf: 27 karma (Attributes) + 10 karma (vision) +20 karma (resistance, based upon Quick Healer) - 6 karma (discount) - 10 (Impaired Attribute x1)
25 karma - Elf: 21 karma (Attributes) + 10 karma (vision) - 6 karma (discount)
68 karma - Troll: 84 karma Attributes + 10 karma (vision) +10 karma (reach) +20 karma (dermal deposits) =10 karma (Celerity) - 6 karma (discount) - 50 (Impaired Attribute x5*)
*Normally you can't take impaired ability more than once per attribute, but for these purposes, I applied it twice to Charisma.

Replacing the attribute cost with metagenic improvement,
Human 0
Ork 190
Dwarf 220
Elf 130
Troll 310

Alternatively, using reversed impaired attribute (+5 BP for increased racial max) added to the revised initial formula, you get:
Human: (-10 karma discount for other races)
Ork: 86 karma
Dwarf: 101 karma (81 karma with discounts proposed in initial post)
Elf: 65 karma
Troll: 158 karma (148 karma with discounts proposed in initial post)

IMO, this is more in scale, thanks for that catch, Muspellsheimr.
I did expect Elves were overpriced to reduce SR games being flooded by them so I'm not surprised by that pit on the cost curve.

Thanks for all the response guys!
By the way, for those of you that modify strength for chargen, do you do so for in-game advancement as well?

[Fortune]

By the way, for those of you that modify strength for chargen, do you do so for in-game advancement as well?

I was thinking about asking the very same question. As well as what cost(s) do you actually give for Strength in BP and Karma.

[ElFenrir]

I too have been trying to figure out a way to beef Strength up a bit(har.) I like a high Strength for just plain flavor on some of my characters, but, I mean...it would be kind of nice indeed if it just did more. When sams have been known to dump the stat, there's problems.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a high Strength should be required for combat characters-that was my problem with having all of the melee combat linked to Strength in SR3. There should be room for agile fighters, too(and let's face it, most of the melee combat actually would benefit from a high Agility.

I agree that Str(S) or (P) for melee would be a bad idea, especially with all of the ways to beef up damage.

One problem with Strength is that the Strength itself does not really...add that much to the blows. Again, I can see some points-knowing how and where to hit is sometimes more important. I mean, I'm a wuss, but if I shoved a sword in someone's gut it would hurt. But the difference in damage between Mighty Jack, the boxer with Strength 7, Critical Strike 4 and +2 DV from his boxing, and Speedy Tom, with 3 strength, Critical Strike 4 and +2 DV from boxing is only 2 DV. It's something, but it's not a lot in the long run, especially when you figure that in each case, less than half of the DV actually even comes from the strength(4 of Jack's 10 damage is Strength, and only 2 of Tom's 8 damage. In Tom's case, that's 1/4.) This just plain out makes it desirable to dump the stat to beef up other things; especially since Tom can match the 10 damage with 2 more Critical Strike levels.

Recoil bonuses might work; starting them lower could help(4-6=+1, 7-9=+2, 10-12=+3.) It's not an enormous amount of recoil, but it's a little something at least.

I think adjusting the lifting rules might work, too. Now, I know IRL folks who are top-Olympic material(6 Strength, I'd say), tend to be able to lift more than a shadowrunner with a 6, but, well, that's in Optimal Lifting Conditions(stretching, warming up, getting a good grip, etc)-not picking up a struggling mass of cyberware in a stressful combat situation. But a little boost to these might work, too-perhaps making Strength a bit more important here. As the rules stand, a character can deadlift 15kg per point of Strength. To lift more, they can roll Body+Strength to add hits. But, like this...someone that's weaker with more packed into Body can still sort of even them out. Mighty Jack with a 6 Strength and 3 Body can lift 90kg without a test, and assuming 9 hits, he can lift up to 135kg more. Really Tough Bob with a 6 Body and 3 Strength can lift a base of 45kg(half of what Jack can), but can still add a potential 135kg; in the end, Mighty Jack can only lift an extra 45kg, even though he's twice as strong. At the same time, it makes some sense that lifting is not only Strength.

I don't know how I'd adjust the lifting rules, but I'd have to mill a few things over.

And as said, linking more skills. I would just have to think about which skills would be Strength based. Making them melee again wouldn't be good; as said, Agility is important to these, and it makes playing an agile-based fighter kind of obsolete. Averaging Agility and Strength would overly complicate things and go against the flat ''skill + attribute''. I just can't think of any other things that could be Strength based. Maybe Heavy Weapons. That was Strength-based in SR3, and I could see it staying that way. Jumping is Agility based, being part of Gymnastics, which I do think could stay Agility-based. (On a slightly related note, I think Gunnery needs to go back under Logic. I don't think how limber and agile you are helps launching smart-based missiles from a car.)

Otherwise, I'm really not sure. Throwing Weapons, maybe?

[Stahlseele]

as for the lifting capacity . . just make it STRx100 instead of STRx10 . . maybe carry STRx50 . .
so a STR12Troll CAN in fact, throw around MotorBikes and maybe the odd little small car . .

a bit strange at the low end, with str1 humans . . but being able to lift 100kg can propperly be explained by adrenaline rush . .
there's stories of mothers lifting cars off of their children for example . . and carrying 50kg, especially in a backpack, is quite possible, even if it ain't all that comfortable and you won't be doing it for long and you won't be foinf anything for long after the fact either . .

[Muspellsheimr]

Recoil bonuses might work; starting them lower could help(4-6=+1, 7-9=+2, 10-12=+3.) It's not an enormous amount of recoil, but it's a little something at least.

I was lowering the starting point and the scale. 4 - 1; 6 - 2; 8 - 3; 10 - 4; etc.

[ElFenrir]

That sounds even better, actually. Not craptons to make all gun specialists want to be Rambo, but enough to at least maybe get sams thinking about the stat again.

Honestly, I don't mind seeing folks play sams more speed than power oriented. If someone wants to play a wiry little guy who is still tough or whatnot and goes with, say, Strength 3, that should be fine. BUT, the fact that the stat has severe problems is, well, the problem here. Both types(speed or brute types) should be viable, without the ''brute-types'' getting the shorter end of the stick.

[Stahlseele]

well, at least in SR3 high STR meant as soon as you actually managed to hit something, it was BOUND to take Damage . .
seriously, easy enough to get a troll to STR16 on Char-Gen and with Bones of the Titan +4 Damage in unarmed combat meant 16M Damage before successes . .
in SR4? nah, even the STR16 Troll will probably hurt less than the STR9 Elf with more hits . .
Anothr way to bring Strength up to Speed would be making close combat damage not halved strength . . you could do the ridiculous again, but hell, that's what we want isn't it?

[TheOOB]

You can just start adding min strength requirements to some weapons, giving the character a -1 recoil penalty for every point they are below the min number. Light pistols would be about 2, heavies would be 3, most longarms would be about 4, with heavy weapons at about a 5.