Prestidigitation, Player wants it, but a few red flags Options

[KurenaiYami]

Greetings.

Getting into the thick of it, I'm starting SR4 back up with my old group, and added another player to test the waters. Said player has requested a "prestidigitation" type spell, which allows him to do a bunch of minor things, produce a flame equivalent to the flame of a candle.

Now, I don't have much problem with him having a fun random catch-all spell, but I put the condition that it would not be able to harm or hinder any individual, and he quickly showed a dislike for that condition. He then began trying to think of "creative ways" to use it, and asking if they would work, such as using the flame to burn through rope and the like.

And here's the problem: None of this is really "creative" if we're using a spell that has no clear definition. So, I ask my fellow Dumpshockers, how do I design this spell in a way that gives him a degree of freedom and flexibility without it being a swiss army knife to get out of any jam?

[TheOOB]

One of the key limitations of magic is that you can only cast a spell you know, if you are fine breaking this then go ahead.

Personally however, I would make it a skill, say improvised magic, that lets you cast simple magical effects without a forumla, you could make a list of what kind of effects based on hits.

[MaxMahem]

My vote: Don't.

Magic is easiset to manage when you put strict and arbitrary limits on what a spell can and cannot do. Magic in SR is a very powerful tool with little equal in many areas, so you should always aproach it cautiously. Making any spell that can be used for any of a wide variaty of function in a wide varity of situations is probably a bad idea. And it sounds as if you player is already trying to find ways to abuse it. So just simply don't allow it. Tell him magic in SR is very purpouse driven. And each spell must have a specific clearly define purpose/action which it performs.

Besides, prestidigitation (ala the D20 spell) would be terribly powerful in SR terms. As it can cover the function of quite a number of other spells including clean and illusion. These spells can already be quite powerful when deployed properly, encapsulating them within a single spell just makes them even better.

[Critias]

Shadowrun isn't D&D. There's already a spell -- somewhere -- that will do whatever it is he was Prestidigitation to do. He can learn those, just like everyone else that wants to be able to do that stuff.

[WeaverMount]

Including such a spell would be quit powerful and no very SR. However I expect that you play would have fun with such a spell and keeping it in check is doable. Also I've been looking for a bone to throw to intuition caster and I think this might be it. I feel that Charisma and Logic are pretty balanced against each other as a drain stat. Social skill ~= technical skills. Charisma gives you more spirits, but Logic gives you enchanting and arcana and has better ware. Intuition doesn't doesn't such but it doesn't really synergize with anything magical and has really weak bonuses. Fluff wise shamans get to bargain with spirits and people, heretics get to research and tinker, and intuition people get too.... yeah.
I say give them prestidigitation as a 3 BP spell. It can be any spell of 1 school capped force 1. Alternately you could do it as a meta magic that caps the force at grade.

[Glyph]

Considering that the player is contemplating ways to abuse it before he's even gotten it, I would surmise that letting him have it would be a bad idea.

[Jaid]

Including such a spell would be quit powerful and no very SR. However I expect that you play would have fun with such a spell and keeping it in check is doable. Also I've been looking for a bone to throw to intuition caster and I think this might be it. I feel that Charisma and Logic are pretty balanced against each other as a drain stat. Social skill ~= technical skills. Charisma gives you more spirits, but Logic gives you enchanting and arcana and has better ware. Intuition doesn't doesn't such but it doesn't really synergize with anything magical and has really weak bonuses. Fluff wise shamans get to bargain with spirits and people, heretics get to research and tinker, and intuition people get too.... yeah.
I say give them prestidigitation as a 3 BP spell. It can be any spell of 1 school capped force 1. Alternately you could do it as a meta magic that caps the force at grade.

intuition is used in surprise tests, if i'm not mistaken, as well as factoring into initiative, and perception, and a number of useful skills. if, for some reason, you are obsessed with how it relates to magic however, i would point out that assensing uses intuition, and that is sufficient reason to want it right there.

[Fortune]

I was going to respond, but Jaid has it adequetely covered.

[hobgoblin]

hand him street magic, and tell him to dream up the spell effects he wants out of that.

maybe make it always physical drain as the safeguards are "missing/removed".

another option would be that by taking physical drain, and rolling intuition, one aspect pr hit of a known spell can be altered, added or removed on the fly.

oh, and make any glitch add some unwanted side-effect, and a critical glitch either double drain or make him loose a pass from having his mind overloaded by raw magic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

still, most of prestidigitation could probably be handled by some kind of illusion, preferably physical, and the rest by some kind of physical manipulation.

still, that makes one wonder, will a flame create by a physical illusion burn a rope?

[Medicineman]

My vote: Don't.
Either that
or make it an Illusion Spell,not a "real" one

with an illusionary Dance
Medicineman

[Ravor]

Personally I would let him have it, but rule that he needs to make a sucessful Arcana Test followed by casting the spell with Ritual Magic (Yeah I know that Ritual Magic is supposed to take at least an hour to use, but since we are house-ruleing anyways it fits better than normal spellcasting in my opinion.) and spend a point of Edge to power the effect.

If you still think it is too powerful, rule that the stress from twisting the known laws of magic into tiny knots means that the Drain from "Free-form" Magic can not be resisted.

[hyzmarca]

The way I see it, prestidigitation of for slight-of-hand artists, not actual magicians. If he wants to go that route I'd like him take stage illusion as a skill (artisan) and let him use that with a stage magic kit (flash powder, endless handkerchiefs, heavily drugged doves, and ect. to accomplish various small feats. (Concealed flash powder or torch allows one to produce flames when burn through a rope).

But for versitility, magicians are better off using spirits.

[WeaverMount]

Just so we know what we are working with

Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

So in SR terms we are talking magic fingers for the levitation, and trid phantasm can do literally everything else. Those are two top notch spells. Just explain to your player that without spell per day restrictions you don't need a cheep and easy version, you just cast the spell at a low force and bitch slap the drain.

[Cabral]

I would say a good deal of Prestidigitation can be handled by the Phantasm spell. Beyond that, a spell or two more should cover it. The remaining differences can be explained by the differences in Shadowrun's and D&D's magic level.

Point him to Fashion and other spells in Street Magic. There are some good "Bag O'Tricks" spells there. You might consider offering a package discount for the ones you might think of as flavor spells (Ie, Fashion, Clean and maybe design a cooking spell).

[Neraph]

still, that makes one wonder, will a flame create by a physical illusion burn a rope?

So long as the rope fails its save.

That aside, the D20 Prestidigitation spell could be easily duplicated by F1 Magic Fingers, Ignite, Clean, Fashion, Makeup, maybe something else like Purity Air (I think that's what it's called...), and maybe a few others. If you want to allow for leneancy (spelling?) then allow him to continue sustaining, say his Magic Fingers spell, then move the sustaining function over to the Ignite spell, without having to re-roll the spellcasting test, but having to resist the new drain.

[Warlordtheft]

still, that makes one wonder, will a flame create by a physical illusion burn a rope?

It would appear to catach fire, but doesn't really would be my guess. It also depends on how good the illusion is. You may even smell it burning.

[KurenaiYami]

Thanks all, you've helped me understand my options a great deal here.

I think I'll point the player to this thread next time I see him, then politely inform him that the spell won't be happening.

[child of insanit...]

for little things i allow my players to do it anyways. mages don't need lighters. one of the first things any mage learns is how to light a candle with his mind. but if my players start trying to abuse it i'll bitch slap them so hard their children will be born retarded. but the actual prestidigitation effects... like it's been said, there's too many other spells to replicate it.

[MaxMahem]

for little things i allow my players to do it anyways. mages don't need lighters. one of the first things any mage learns is how to light a candle with his mind. but if my players start trying to abuse it i'll bitch slap them so hard their children will be born retarded. but the actual prestidigitation effects... like it's been said, there's too many other spells to replicate it.

On further consideration, Child of Insanity may have a point. For truly, truly minor effects, you might consider allowing them. Lighting a cigrette with fire from his fingers might be an example. But I would limit it to VERY minor effects, and be ready to come down like the wrath of god if it is abused. Maybe only if the mage has a spell that is similar in effect. So someone with ignite could do the finger-fire trick. Or someone with magic fingers could very gently nudge something in the distance. But I would be hesitant even here. I might allow it from time to time, but I would never let it have an important in game effect. Just some cool magic SFX.

[child of insanit...]

On further consideration, Child of Insanity may have a point. For truly, truly minor effects, you might consider allowing them. Lighting a cigrette with fire from his fingers might be an example. But I would limit it to VERY minor effects, and be ready to come down like the wrath of god if it is abused. Maybe only if the mage has a spell that is similar in effect. So someone with ignite could do the finger-fire trick. Or someone with magic fingers could very gently nudge something in the distance. But I would be hesitant even here. I might allow it from time to time, but I would never let it have an important in game effect. Just some cool magic SFX.

exactly. lighting the fuse with your fingerfire is simple, but you gotta have the spell if you're not almost touching it anyways. pulling a smoke from your pack doesn't require the spell, but lifting the key off the gaurd does. ect. one of my most basic rules as gm is this: if you have it, so can they.

[KurenaiYami]

UPDATE:

Talked to the player today at work (yay coworkers who game!) and he seemed very okay with the spell not happening, so long as we allowed the very minor effects happen in the way described by Child of Insanity.

Thanks for all the help!

[WeaverMount]

Sorry missed this some how

intuition is used in surprise tests, if i'm not mistaken, as well as factoring into initiative, and perception, and a number of useful skills. if, for some reason, you are obsessed with how it relates to magic however, i would point out that assensing uses intuition, and that is sufficient reason to want it right there.

If we assume that all the stats are basically balanced against each other in general then it is perfectly reasonable to only consider magical uses of the stat. I really don't think assessing comparable with arcana and enchanting or a higher spirit count, especially when you consider than a F5 spirit is likely a better at assensing than even an intuition tradition mage. Also intuition is a really hard stat to load up with bonuses making it a less attractive stat to need high

[Glyph]

Intuition is a pretty decent stat, Magic-wise. It is not only used for Assensing (one of the few magical skills that does not use Magic as its linked Attribute), but also for the location and gathering tests for finding reagents. Also note that enchanting uses Magic, not Logic, as its linked Attribute. For arcana, I like the optional rule that lets you use whatever the linked Drain stat is for it (rather than Logic by default) - why would a druid or shaman use Logic, rather than Intuition or Charisma, for their kind of magical studies?

Charisma limits the number of bound spirits that you can have, while Logic limits how many foci you can have active at once - since most mages probably won't even come close to this limit during the normal course of play, a high Charisma or Logic don't really do much. So Intuition is, to me, one of the more useful stats, even ignoring how vital it is outside of its Magical uses. It is especially great for orks, who suffer lower caps to Logic and Charisma.

[WeaverMount]

Intuition is a pretty decent stat, Magic-wise. It is not only used for Assensing (one of the few magical skills that does not use Magic as its linked Attribute), but also for the location and gathering tests for finding reagents. Also note that enchanting uses Magic, not Logic, as its linked Attribute. For arcana, I like the optional rule that lets you use whatever the linked Drain stat is for it (rather than Logic by default) - why would a druid or shaman use Logic, rather than Intuition or Charisma, for their kind of magical studies?

Charisma limits the number of bound spirits that you can have, while Logic limits how many foci you can have active at once - since most mages probably won't even come close to this limit during the normal course of play, a high Charisma or Logic don't really do much. So Intuition is, to me, one of the more useful stats, even ignoring how vital it is outside of its Magical uses. It is especially great for orks, who suffer lower caps to Logic and Charisma.

So you claim that intuition is good for getting reagents and assessing. A mage should be able to buy whatever reagents they want if they are getting paid like a sam who can afford to upgrade 'ware. And if we are talking about an optimized mage then there spirits are better at assessing than they are. Spirit caps can not be out sourced like that. And yes arcana can be out sourced getting someone to design your spells, ally spirit, and vessels takes a lot more trust and reliance than counting on others for your reagents. Yes needing more than 3 foci is unlikely, but maxing out on your number of bound spirits is easy and effective. I'll give you the trog mage build that sounds pretty cool and viable. Orks are BP buy and mages needs them soem BP. The value of Intuition varries wildly depending on what kind of game your playing, and it varies from worse to evenish

[Cthulhudreams]

Intuition is super badass because orks don't get a penalty to it. And orks give 50 points of stats for 20 BP, and let you see in the dark without cyber eyes, two things that have super synergy with being a mage.

That pretty much makes intuition super awesome right there. And ork with Assensing 4 or 6, intuition 5, spec aura reading and an owl mentor is a viable choice and quite good at handy stuff. He can quite often get the 5 dice you need to read people's emotional state and they have no defense.