 Greek/Mongol/etc Wrestling & Sumai, Adapting to CC martial arts |
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 Dec 31 2003, 03:43 AM
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#1
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Canon Companion  Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187  |
After Nagra's Troll Strength thread last night, I decided to make a Cyclops wrestler charactor. After all the Attributes were done, I was stumped by the fact that there weren't any wrestling type martial arts in CC and I was loath to use Brawling. So I decided to see if anyone had any ideas on wrestling martial arts.
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Dec 31 2003, 03:47 AM
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#2
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Well, considering Wrestling is in no way, shape, or form a martial art, I think that sums it up.
Now, do you mean high school wrestling or "holy shit that's so fake" TV wrestling? In the case of the former, it would be Athletics (Wrestling). In the case of the latter, it would be Performance (Acting) with a bit of Athletics (Wrestling) thrown in. Now don't any of you start whining about how Athletics (Wrestling) isn't applicable. It is, because you can specialize into a sport, as per canon rules. You know who I'm talking to. *Glare of Doom™* |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:07 AM
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#3
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
I say create a couple maneuvers to simulate holds and locks, and make it a style.
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Dec 31 2003, 04:22 AM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
It depends what you want to do. AFAIK Wrestling isn't the most useful combat technique as in-general there are rules against kneeing in the goolies. In other games I have played the wrestling combat maneuvers allowed you to perform locks, choke-holds, throws, joint dislocating techniques, stunning techniques ETC. I'f you actually want to fight using it then I'd go for a martial art with maneuvers such as throw, disorient, sweep, ground fighting(?), disorient, close combat, and maybe a few home-grown ones like dislocate, lock, and nerve strkes (which I'll leave to your imagination).
I would also give the character Athletics(Wrestling) to reflect the training and honing his body has been through. It wouldn't help you to hit someone per-se but you would probably be less fatigued because of it (hence have lower TNs). |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:28 AM
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#5
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Considering that Wrestling is in some way, shape or form a martial art, I think that sums it up. I was not asking you to tell me it is not a martial art, I was asking you to help me adapt Wrestling into a CC Martial Arts style. If you have no idea how to do it, I would be happy if you just told me you have no idea. |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:34 AM
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#6
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I'm going to hold with my statement that wrestling is not, in fact, a martial art. However, just to be (somewhat) nice...
Take the rules for jujitsu and take out the "Ha! Now I've got you where you want me!" |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:44 AM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Would you class Broadsword and shield a martial art? Martial arts may cover a broader category of subjects than you think.
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Dec 31 2003, 04:53 AM
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#8
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Different ideaology to me.
Or maybe I'm just being led astray by the media and TV wrestling. If that is so, sorry, but that's just how I view it. |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:55 AM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
While this is true, there is no real martial use for real (or even fake) Wrestling. It was invented as a sport, and has continued to be used as such since Greco-Roman times (if not before). This is not to say that someone trained in Wrestling cannot fight. They would just have to adapt wrestling into a style that is of some practical use in the real (or even Sixth) world. |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:57 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
I don't know, grappling/wrestling works pretty well on most people.
Throw in a headbutt or punch or two and you're set. But now we're back to brawling. This post has been edited by Diesel: Dec 31 2003, 05:05 AM |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:59 AM
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#11
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
In the style of Grecco Roman, that may just require a Grapple or Brawl (of which you can grapple with, just not as effectively). |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:59 AM
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#12
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Which is a good example of some of the wrestling moves being adapted for practical use. :) |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:02 AM
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#13
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You think? You may as well say that there's no combat value in the 100m sprint. Sports was merely training for soldiers with people watching. |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:06 AM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If you say so. |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:07 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
There are more effective means of making war than sprinting and wrestling.
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Dec 31 2003, 05:08 AM
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#16
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Don't read much history do you? The marathon was started when a soldier ran home with the news of victory. The javelin was guys throwing spears. Swimming wasn't a big deal until the generals realised what a tactical advantage they had if their soldiers didn't drown getting across rivers |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:09 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 973 Joined: 3-October 03 Member No.: 5,677 |
And promptly died. :D :( :dead: |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:15 AM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Heh. In SLA indistries the dislocate maneuver is about the most deadly in the game. You call a shot at a limb and if you hit (and they are lightly-armoured enough) the limb is dislocated. Calling a shot to the head is a bit harder than other called shots in the system but it's definately a quick way to take someone down.
Anyway: Yes Wrestling is primarily a sport but you could easily take the concepts (grappling combat) and turn it into an effective martial art. For more details of the martial art: I think you'd get a bonus die or so when fighting using the close combat maneuver but -2 dice if the opponent is armed with a (sharp?) melee weapon. Sound OK? |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:21 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955 |
I wouldn't throw that melee weapon thing in. I could lock your arm pretty damn fast and I'm not even that good. Someone who can really wrestle can turn you immobile inside of a second and you're not too sure how. That makes your knife...ah...useless. :D
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Dec 31 2003, 05:21 AM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 63 Joined: 8-November 03 Member No.: 5,803 |
And wrestling as a martial art would be, yes, a martial art. The difference between the "Athletics skill" wrestling and "martial arts skill" wrestling is simple: The Athletics version follows a series of rules (all of which I am completely unaware of) which means it qualifies as a 'sport'. This means you may be able to win a gold medal in it, but on the street, it is useless, since your opponent will not be following the rules. In the "Ultimate Fighting Championships", where they pit all sorts of fighers against each other, it is almost always the wrestlers who win. There is no question that a properly trained wrestler would not be a capable opponent. |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:24 AM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Quite a bit, actually. I stand by what I stated, in that Greco-Roman wrestling began as a sport. As I went on to say, there is no reason a skilled practitioner could not adapt it to a practical martial art. As it is though, strictly speaking it is a sport. |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:43 AM
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#22
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Just to whip the dead horse a little more:
Sports can be used for martial application with creative and motivated participants, but if the initial intent isn't combative in nature, I don't classify it as a martial art. By that definition, boxing, judo, greco-roman wrestling, muay thai don't get classified as "martial arts" although a fair number of people would energetically disagree with me. So I suppose I should have prefaced this entire exchange with, "In My Humble Opinion". :grinbig: Oh and as for the Marathon runner -- he may have died, but he got the job done. -Siege |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:48 AM
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#23
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
If he died right after stopping, that must mean he was one of the first Adepts! Pain Resistance gaesed to running. He stopped, his body went "Oh no! Deadly damage!" and promptly cacked.
:rotfl: |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:56 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
In all honesty I think a good free-style wrestler will beat a good puncher/kicker just about every time. Just an opinion. To build a set of wrestling Martial arts, take a look at brawling and it's associated techniques. Make some changes to the maneuver lists to reflect style differences, Greco-Roman vs. Sumo will be different after all. Voila your done. Game wise, I don't know that it makes much of a difference. Greco-Roman is probably going to be more useful/adaptable to Shadowrun than sumo though. Imagine going on a run with a 600 lb human who needs a stick or helpers to wash himself and while proficient at laying people flat, has a hard time getting through doors... :D
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Dec 31 2003, 02:50 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 53 Joined: 13-November 03 Member No.: 5,820 |
I've trained in a few "classic" martial arts (no claims of expertise here) and I would absolutely consider wrestling to be a martial art. If for no other reason that I know an old Estonian guy who can rip me apart with Sambo and I don't want to get on his bad side. Sure, TV catch-as-catch-can wrestling isn't going to be effective but freestyle, Sambo, and even Greco-Roman (with a little tweak here and there) could be very effective in one-on-one encounters. Some statistic I read noted that a high percentage of fights end up on the ground (yes, that means to some of you that most people can't fight) and in those situations, wrestling is pretty damn useful.
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